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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

20180730093248_1.jpg


Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

20180730093553_1.jpg


The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
20180730093708_1.jpg


Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

20180730094033_1.jpg


While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

20180730094125_1.jpg


A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

Hellenics5.jpg


Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

20180730094306_1.jpg


First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

20180730094406_1.jpg


Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
I have a question for the devs. Given that the development diaries so far has focused on the Catholics and the Pagans in this DLC, I wonder if there are any changes and expansions related to the Orthodox in the feature diaries in the future, or not. Given that the Orthodox is a state religion in the Byzantine Empire, and after the start date of 1066 Eastern Europe in general it would be remiss that a DLC focusing on religions would skip over one of the two major Christian faiths.
 
They are not hardcoded (in the sense that you can mod them not to remain regardless), but yes, by default Hellenics keep them.

Yes, there are some Doctrines (or combinations of Doctrines) that can cause changes in the pantheon.

Is there a possibility to get Loki as head of the pantheon for Germanics?
 
They might as well. They've flung the barn doors wide open at this point.

Well yes. But Arianism was not as dead as Hellenism in the 8th century or even later, at least not between Christian scholars. It much more plausible to revive it. It technically happened in Transylvania during the 16th century with Ferenc Dávid and Giorgio Biandrata.
 
Typhon would make more sense, not Kronos. Kronos saw actual cultus in the ancient world-- especially in Rome (Saturnalia!)

Kronos was mostly regarded as a destructive force overthrown and replaced by the (relatively) more benign Olympians.
Later the Romans loosely associated their native God of the Harvest, Saturn, with Kronos, which gave him an image makeover and gave rise to the legend of the Saturnian Golden Age, "when men and gods lived together and hardly realized their differences" and, possibly through confusion with Chronos, also gave him associations with time.
Which is why in my message I wrote "Kronos (not Saturn, but Kronos")
Really all mentions of a benign Kronos are from the Roman era and, in reality, speak about Saturn. But, like with the other gods, the ancient-Greek Kronos isn't identical with Roman Saturn...

Heresies would not make sense for Hellenism, since it was a pluralistic religion much like other polytheistic traditions.

It's implied since The Old Gods that reformation creates a central dogma and canon (a religious text is explicitly mentioned). So unless you take "Autonomous Leadership" it's over with the pluralism. which means heresies would make perfect sense for all the post-reformation Pagan religions, including Hellenism.
 
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Can we restart the Olympic games? Rebuild all the major Hellenic/Roman monuments? Celebrate the major Hellenic/Roman festivals? Reinstate the Legions?
Unfortunately no; while I do not disagree those could be interesting things to have, Holy Fury is not an Hellenism-focused DLC; there were other tasks that needed to be prioritized as well.

Please for the love of all the RNG pantheon holds dear make this possible for an AI to do! It would be insanely fun for Hellenism to get re-introduced and then as say the king of Jerusalem go marching in with the Templars against the Roman Empire.

PLEASE OH PLEASE MAKE THIS POSSIBLE
XD
As I said in one of the posts before, if the game rule is on, both player and AI have access to it, but the AI is extremely unlikely to be competent enough to pull it off (at least as far as our internal testing has shown).

Do I get all these cool events etc. if I use the console command to give myself the Roman Empire title?

Only reason I ask is I prefer to play small/tall empires. De Jure Roman Empire as it is now is way too big for my playstyle. I'd basically only want to control Italy, Sicily and Corsica/Sardinia (and even that is bigger than how I play).

Thanks.
The event chain is triggered by reforming the Roman Empire, not simply having the title.
In any case, if you do not wish to restore Hellenism as a Roman Emperor, you still have the Delve into Classics decision, which has much more accessible requirements.

yeah don't leave out the famous Roman crucifixions. If a megalomaniac managed to resurrect the Hellenic religion amongst a Christian populace he'd be crucifying people left and right in mockery. Also: slavery; there would be a lot of slavery going on.

A Roman Emperor who brings back Hellenism should get the "Apostate" title, too.
Crucifixion was thought about, unfortunately didn't get the occasion to implement it (got lost in the other stuff); a slavery system would need mechanics of its own, so unlikely to be made just for Hellenism. There was a slavery death_reason added for the Children's Crusade though, which I suppose could be used when modding a slavery action for Hellenic rulers, if somebody wishes to do it.

The reforming Roman Emperor does get the Apostate title though, that is in.
 
No it would not.
It would still not be reasonable, but more reasonable certainly. There was the occasional prominet non-trinitarian Christian who showed up the game's time frame, while even at the earliest start date Hellenic paganism was maybe followed by one small village nobody cared about.
 
Unfortunately no; while I do not disagree those could be interesting things to have, Holy Fury is not an Hellenism-focused DLC; there were other tasks that needed to be prioritized as well.


As I said in one of the posts before, if the game rule is on, both player and AI have access to it, but the AI is extremely unlikely to be competent enough to pull it off (at least as far as our internal testing has shown).


The event chain is triggered by reforming the Roman Empire, not simply having the title.
In any case, if you do not wish to restore Hellenism as a Roman Emperor, you still have the Delve into Classics decision, which has much more accessible requirements.


Crucifixion was thought about, unfortunately didn't get the occasion to implement it (got lost in the other stuff); a slavery system would need mechanics of its own, so unlikely to be made just for Hellenism. There was a slavery death_reason added for the Children's Crusade though, which I suppose could be used when modding a slavery action for Hellenic rulers, if somebody wishes to do it.

The reforming Roman Emperor does get the Apostate title though, that is in.
Slavery could be used by other religions and cultures too. Arabs were active slavers during this time period, and North African Berbers too.
 
Also: slavery; there would be a lot of slavery going on.

First, slavery wasn't somehow unique to the Hellenic faith, it kept on going until it was replaced by serfdom. Which is just slavery with a few extra steps.
Second, all trade is already abstracted in the game; you don't get spices etc. from trade posts, you get generic trade value. So you can assume slaves are among the stuff that add trade value.
 
I can see crucifixion just being a special execution form for Roman/Hellenic characters rather than having special mechanics tied to it.

Maybe not Roman if they stay Christian...

I will admit I have never looked much into the history of execution methods, but I'm not sure it makes sense for a Christian culture to put their criminals through the same procedure that caused the death and resurrection of their "Lord"
And well, the various places following the Greek and Roman gods seem to have had a lot of execution methods.
 
Maybe not Roman if they stay Christian...

I will admit I have never looked much into the history of execution methods, but I'm not sure it makes sense for a Christian culture to put their criminals through the same procedure that caused the death and resurrection of their "Lord"
And well, the various places following the Greek and Roman gods seem to have had a lot of execution methods.
I meant someone who was both Roman and Hellenic. There's a lot of different execution methods that they've added to the game, ranging from hanging, burning people alive, to feeding them to animals. In the last case, what they're fed to depends on the culture and region of the person doing the execution.
 
Yes. Naturally the Greek rulers will not change physically, they will just gain the Roman clothes. The Roman Renaissance requires you to move your capital back in Rome (Italy), so it makes sense that eventually the courtiers of your new administration will start look somewhat Italian as well.


No, the only changes in the requirements to restore the Roman Empire are that now you can be a Christian or Hellenic (rather than be locked to Christians only).



I do not disagree on the principle, but, like you say, this sort of granularity would require a lot of work to be implemented. If you wish to have Greek Gods, just Reform Hellenism before starting the Roman Renaissance, the change in the Pantheon will happen on Reformation and will check only at the time of the reformation what culture the Reformer belongs to. It will not change again later if you become Roman. Conversely, if you want to keep them Latin, wait to Reform until after the Renaissance (or have a non-Greek Emperor doing the Reformation).

As for the culture spread, Roman culture will be very contagious in Italy and towards other Latin cultures. Italian especially is likely to be wiped out if you start the Roman Renaissance. Greek specifically, as it was the case historically, is going to be significantly more resilient to it.


They have new art. The screenshots were taken a long time ago.


It will indeed be fixed.
Man I was hoping for Romans to use Italian Faces with Greek facial hair so as to denote Roman "Classieness" and civilized nature as compared to other peoples.
 
Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

View attachment 407046

Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

View attachment 407048

The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
View attachment 407049

Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

View attachment 407050

While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

View attachment 407051

A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

View attachment 407052

Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

View attachment 407053

First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

View attachment 407054

Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
I have a question:

The first method of reviving hellenism seems to have two options available for how to go about it; A loud and upfront declaration of one's new faith and a call to arms for all loyal vassals against the inevitable civil war that will ensure, and what looks to be a more subtle option.

Does this mean that if you go the revive the Roman Empire route you will be also be able to secretly convert and spread the hellenic religion through your vassals and lands before going openly hellenic or will there be some other way to do things more subtly if you revive the Roman Empire first?