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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
You can't land them, but you can lead a faction to put him in charge.

there is what I assume is a bug where if you convert him to orthodoxy he loses the monk trait and can be landed

gives you an instant claim on the entire of Frankia as the Byzantines
 
AVE! AVE! AVE!



On a more serious note the next EUIV full sized expansion better be as amazing as Holy Fury!
 
"one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos)"

on a related note is it possible to see all of a religion's Sites in-game if the religion does not exist? Do all the heretic religions share the same holy sites as the primary religion?
 
But, since he's already a monk, isn't he celibate? Or is there a way to get rid of that?

there is what I assume is a bug where if you convert him to orthodoxy he loses the monk trait and can be landed

gives you an instant claim on the entire of Frankia as the Byzantines

It isn't a bug, you can always press the claim of someone who is a monk. They lose your monk trait upon getting landed. The only thing been a monk does is put you out of inheritance and unable to get married (which also make you unable to be given a feudal title)
 
Exploit? Maybe. Bug? I wouldn't go that far.

Why would converting a monk to a different form of the same religion which has an even bigger monastic tradition cause him to stop being a monk? I mean I'm not complaining, free reconquest of France and a chunky lump of Germany under a vassal king who will love you for it is good but I never understood the logic behind converting to Orthodox making him suddenly not a monk?
 
Why would converting a monk to a different form of the same religion which has an even bigger monastic tradition cause him to stop being a monk? I mean I'm not complaining, free reconquest of France and a chunky lump of Germany under a vassal king who will love you for it is good but I never understood the logic behind converting to Orthodox making him suddenly not a monk?
Why would anyone who joined a certain religion's monastic order still belong to a monastic order when converting religions? He should join another order from the new one. I mean, we can debate if it's a good or bad design choice if you lose the monk trait upon conversion, but I wouldn't call it a bug.
 
As for the holy sites, that was the pre-existing setup and, looking at it, it felt reasonable enough for me: one in Italy (Rome), one in Egypt (Alexandria), and the remaining three in Greece. I suppose it might have been equally valid to move one from Greece to Sicily, but at this point they are likely going to stay as they are.
That kind of sounds like it'd be pretty easy to reform if you have all of greece.

Maybe this is too silly but how about putting one of the holy sites in Gibraltar for the Pillars of Hercules. At least it would be pushing you to have to get at least one holy site outside of Greece to reform.


Crucifixion was thought about, unfortunately didn't get the occasion to implement it (got lost in the other stuff); a slavery system would need mechanics of its own, so unlikely to be made just for Hellenism. There was a slavery death_reason added for the Children's Crusade though, which I suppose could be used when modding a slavery action for Hellenic rulers, if somebody wishes to do it.
It would be great if you could throw that Slavery death reason to Africans, Nomads, and Muslims. It's likely outside the parameters of Holy Fury but if those cultures/religions/governments could have a 'sell into slavery' option that gives you a set amount of gold and killing the prisoner with that death reason instead of actually killing the prisoner or ransoming them it would be very very cool. It could make a good third option for prisoners that can't afford a ransom but also aren't worth killing.
 
So if we pick enatic-clans as a doctrine will our main god become Athena or another female god in a similar manner to how picking the sea-faring doctrine makes Poseidon your head god?

Also will this apply to other religions? eg: Norse ------> Freya/Frigg and maybe even non-pagan ones edited in random world such as Catholic -------> Virgin Mary as well if thats even possible?
 
Hopefully I'll get to succeed at undoing Constantine's legacy when I get my hands on Holy Fury :) Jupiter Optimus Maximus! Now all that needs doing is to implement Celtic paganism for the British Isles, but I guess we have the wonderful Ancient Religions Reborn mod for that.

Will we get to dedicate other temples to pagan deities? Dedicating Germanic temples to Odin for example.
 
That kind of sounds like it'd be pretty easy to reform if you have all of greece.

Maybe this is too silly but how about putting one of the holy sites in Gibraltar for the Pillars of Hercules. At least it would be pushing you to have to get at least one holy site outside of Greece to reform.

I think the "reformation" is just so you can choose the direction you want to take the religion in (doctrines and leadership). Hellenic used to be pre-reformed, and it's not like Norse paganism where you have to unite a large group of different folk beliefs together.

It is a Greek religion, and the ruler of all Greece must be able to reform it, with difficulty being neither here nor there; right now you are able to reform it as a Greek controlling Greek territories, or as a Roman controlling historical Roman territories (which include Greece).

My first Holy Fury game is going to be as a Greek seeking to make a Hellenic Greece without Alexandria, Rome or Gibraltar, so I'm going to be tremendously annoyed if the holy site locations are changed.

CK2 is not a balanced game where all paths need to have the same difficulty. Some religions are harder to reform than others, just as some rulers are harder to play than others, and that's fine.
 
Hopefully I'll get to succeed at undoing Constantine's legacy when I get my hands on Holy Fury :) Jupiter Optimus Maximus! Now all that needs doing is to implement Celtic paganism for the British Isles, but I guess we have the wonderful Ancient Religions Reborn mod for that.

Will we get to dedicate other temples to pagan deities? Dedicating Germanic temples to Odin for example.

Asked and answered:

They are set only for Hellenics, but they are not hardcoded. I had thought about making it into a Doctrine, like Haruspicy and Astrology, but unfortunately that would have taken a lot more time, since the entire event structure would have needed to be adapted to all the various deities of the other pagan religions (as well as the fact that some Doctrines change the gods).
 
I think the "reformation" is just so you can choose the direction you want to take the religion in (doctrines and leadership). Hellenic used to be pre-reformed, and it's not like Norse paganism where you have to unite a large group of different folk beliefs together.

It is a Greek religion, and the ruler of all Greece must be able to reform it, with difficulty being neither here nor there; right now you are able to reform it as a Greek controlling Greek territories, or as a Roman controlling historical Roman territories (which include Greece).

My first Holy Fury game is going to be as a Greek seeking to make a Hellenic Greece without Alexandria, Rome or Gibraltar, so I'm going to be tremendously annoyed if the holy site locations are changed.

CK2 is not a balanced game where all paths need to have the same difficulty. Some religions are harder to reform than others, just as some rulers are harder to play than others, and that's fine.
Eh greek hellenic and latin hellenic are atleast as diffrent as saxon and norse germanic paganism.
 
Eh greek hellenic and latin hellenic are atleast as diffrent as saxon and norse germanic paganism.

As Silfae mentioned, they have unique names (if you are a Greek reformer, you get "Zeus" and "Hera", but if an Italian reformer, "Jupiter", "Juno"), and this matters for flavour which is the main feature of Holy Fury. I imagine most people don't play CK2 to minmax and win, but to tell a story, and the creation of a pagan Greek realm is one such story.

At present, the Hellenic religion offers a Roman-Italian path, and a Greek path, which means at least two separate game opportunities (see how Zoroastrianism only really offers one).

There's no need to scatter the holy sites artificially, forcing players who want to go either route to take distant territories that make no sense just for the sake of reforming. It's bad enough with Germanic paganism, which if you want to reform the Germanic faith as Anglo-Saxon England, forces you to blob into Scandinavia.

To be honest, the holy sites mechanic that served its purpose when the Old Gods was released now shows its age. It'd be better if there were more holy sites (as many as each religion needed) weighted differently, and that sufficient "reformation points" were needed in order to reform (including religion-specific artifacts and total demesne size). Something like that would allow greater flexibility.
 
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