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CK2 Dev Diary #102 - About that one dead religion...


Greetings.

Well, then... Holy Fury will make Hellenism playable.

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Now, now, let us be clear: there are not going to be any significant changes in the game’s history. Holy Fury will simply offer a couple of ways for a ruler to revive the religion when meeting some strict requirements.
This is no easy choice to make, of course, as doing so will likely make your character reviled by both vassals and neighbors alike and cause your realm to fall into a crippling civil war, but then again, if the cause is just...

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The first opportunity to restore Hellenism will come immediately after restoring the Roman Empire as a Greek or Italian ruler. Your character will receive an event shortly after becoming Emperor where he ponders about reintroducing the old state religion.
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Naturally, if you decide to do so, your Abrahamic vassals will assume that you have gone insane (which, I suppose, may very well be the case...) and likely band together in a large revolt to depose you. Be aware that defeat during this civil war could easily result in a game over: if your heir is also a pagan like you, the leader of the rebellious vassals will take over the entire Empire for himself and away from your heathen dynasty.
On the other hand, if you are successful, you will be able to remain in power and some of your less reluctant vassals might decide that embracing Hellenism is not such a ludicrous proposition after all.

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While not entirely connected to the Hellenic Restoration, I would also like to talk about a few other additions that have been slipped in the old Roman Empire revival event chain.
First of all, remember how the silly Pope tends to fill Rome with Church holdings, making the city not exactly palatable as a feudal capital? Well, worry no more! For now, after restoring the Empire (and provided that Rome has two or more temple holdings), your ruler will be given the chance to emulate Nero and clean up the place a bit. It might seriously hurt Catholic Moral Authority and the local peasants might get really upset about it, but, at the end of the day, aren’t those empty slots worth it?

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A second new little feature you might enjoy is the Roman Renaissance decision, which will become available after ruling the restored Empire for a few years, provided that you have moved the capital to Rome, belong to either Greek or Italian culture and are either Christian or Hellenic. This decision will allow your ruler to reintroduce Roman culture to the Empire. On a practical level, this will allow your realm to become more homogenous, as provinces and rulers belonging to any Latin culture will be very susceptible to switch to the new one and, if you are Hellenic, they will also have a chance to switch both culturally and religiously when embracing the new renaissance. On a roleplaying level, your characters will get swanky new togas to dress in.

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Now, let us go back to Hellenism proper. As I was saying before, there is a second way for a ruler to restore the dead religion, if conquering all of western Europe is too much of a hassle for you.
If you are a Christian, of either Greek or Italian culture, your capital is located in Southern Europe, you completely control one of the Hellenic Holy Sites (Thessalonika, Athens, Rome, Alexandria or Abydos), and you are interested in scholarly matters, or are insane, you will have access to a new decision: Delve into Classics.
If taken, this decision will allow a character to go through a short event chain during which you might become enamored enough with Hellenic mythology to decide to secretly convert to it and start your own Society of Hellenes. Whatever you wish to do after that in order to spread the religion will be up to you.

This is it for what concerns the means to resurrect Hellenism, but what about the religion itself?
You will be pleased to know that it is no longer an empty husk and has now actual flavor and mechanics to it.

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First of all, the religion is no longer pre-reformed: it can make use of the new Pagan Reformation feature just like any other form of paganism (and, as a small aside, you might be happy to know that reforming it as a Greek character will give all the gods their Greek names).
As for how the religion starts, Hellenism is now strictly monogamous (no concubinage), and does not have access to Pagan Subjugation. On the other hand, all Roman and Byzantine events previously restricted to Christians are now also available to Hellenic rulers (chariot races, Imperial Reconquests, etc.). Additionally, Hellenism starts having by default the effects of the Haruspicy and Astrology Doctrines, as well as having access to a new unique mechanic: temple dedication.

As a Hellenic ruler, you will be able to dedicate any temple holding within your realm to one of the twelve main deities of your pantheon. Doing so will give your ruler a temporary boost as well as activate a special building granting a permanent bonus to the holding’s province. These dedicated shrines are permanent, merely becoming inactive when under a ruler of a different religion. The kind of boost that they grant is naturally tied to the god they are being dedicated to.

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Finally, Hellenism has been given access to a few societies, though most of them, like the religion, will need to be recreated by a powerful ruler before becoming active.
Aside from having immediate access to Hermetics, Hellenics can now form the Stoics (a Monastic Order), the Bacchants (a Satanist society), and the Olympian Champions (a Warrior Lodge). Aside from their outlook, the Stoics and Bacchants work exactly as their Christian counterparts, with the one exception being that the Rank 4 County Conversion power of the Stoics will convert a province culturally rather than religiously.

Well then, this should cover most of it.


Note: As we are aware that the inclusion of the Hellenic religion might break immersion for some of our players, we have included a Game Rule to go with it. If the rule is turned off, it will disable the Delve into Classics decision and the Hellenic Revival event chain following the Roman Empire’s restoration, removing any chance of the religion reappearing in a regular game (though note that the religion might still spawn in Random World, depending on what settings you use when generating its history).
 
Orvieto: Tarquinia, the 'capital' of the Etruscans in a spiritual sense. Volsinii, more of a political capital with the main Etruscan forum and an Etruscan predecessor to the Capitoline Temple. The necropolises in this region serve it well for the Etruscans too. All these located in one convenient province for Etruscan civilization's flourishing urban cult and simultaneous reverence of necropolises.

Napoli: Site of Lake Avernus, which the Romans believed to be a portal to the underworld. In Roman myth, both Aeneas and Odysseus used this lake to enter the underworld (though the Greek version is speculated to have several places in Italy, Odysseus uses a river in Epirus instead. Italiot Greeks later associated with Avernus anyway), and the Roman Hercules used it as well. It is almost undoubtedly holy to the Etruscans as well, whose settlement of Capua was relatively nearby until the Samnite conquest of the city cut them off.

I like both of those from a flavor perspective but they do fall very close to Rome so I can't see both Rome and one of those being made Holy Sites, although I think it could work if Rome were to stop being a Holy Site altogether for some reason. (not to mention not having to fight the pope for the site...)
 
Did I just see a new path being but open in the Saharas? The Sahara desert is being split open into 2 now.
Old news. Africa is getting a pretty substantial overhaul. See HERE
 
In all honesty the Italia empire should be able to remade into the western Roman empire with a nice red color
Only if you are Roman cultured, and have the Hellenic faith.
 
I think that Roman culture should be enough to be honest.
Yeah, but I was trying to find a way to make it just hard enough so that not everyone could recreate the Western Roman Empire by the year 800.
 
Yeah, but I was trying to find a way to make it just hard enough so that not everyone could recreate the Western Roman Empire by the year 800.

Agreed. There is no need for a Western Roman Empire unless the culture is Latin or Greek.

Western Europeans already tried to resurrect the WRE twice - first as Carolingian Empire and then as Holy Roman Empire (and the overlap between them). They already have their WRE, and it is called the Holy Roman Empire.

If people want WRE without HRE so much, they are free to put some effort, conquer three kingdoms and create their custom empire.
 
The Holy Roman Empire is very different in its political conception of what is the Western Roman Empire. It is much more focused on the notion of Christendom than of Romanity. I think it would be great to have another empire with the Holy Empire, for italian and roman cultures, and even for the Byzantines to potentially divide the Roman Empire between an Eastern Emperor and a Western Emperor.
The most improbable in the imperial restoration, as proposed by CK2, is to not propose the division of the empire whereas an emperor of the East who would have managed to reconquer the West would probably have given himself a colleague. Justinian, even though his reconquest was strictly Mediterranean and concerned only close and coherent territories around the sea, dismissed belisarius precisely because during the conquest of Italy, the goths have proposed him to Ravenna to take the imperial title for the West (or a royal title depending of the translation from Procope). I think that an empire that would give casus bellis against all the provinces of WRE (Gaul, Brittany, Africa, Hispania and Noricum) to an Italian or a Roman pretender would be logical. Or we must review the conditions of creation of the holy roman empire because as it is now it's not allowed when you play the Byzantine Empire.
 
Italians =/= Romans. If anyone can create WRE simply because people want it to, it loses the point.
 
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Italians =/= Romans. If anyone can create WRE simply because people want it to, it loses the point.
Aight, the decision should be more restricted, if it ever were introduced. For example, the pope ought to love you, and hate the Byzantine Emperor.
 
If I were doing it, I would set the conditions for creating the Western Roman Empire to be:

You meet the usual requirements to create an empire
You are Italian, Roman or Dalmatian by culture
You are Catholic, Fraticelli or Hellenic by faith
You hold at least one of Ravenna or Rome

And one of:

The HRE does not exist

Or

You are Catholic and either the Pope and the Kaiser hate each other (both -60 or lower) or the Kaiser sponsors an antipope.

nd
 
Didn't the names "camp of mars/field of mars" remain in use in eurppe for places whrre soldiers paraded? I mean, we've got a champ de mars right now here in paris, france and last i checked we're not hellenic.
Same in Rome, last time I checked the camp of Mars was still there.:D
Italians =/= Romans. If anyone can create WRE simply because people want it to, it loses the point.
Exactly like Anglo-Saxons =/= English. People in Italy didn't regarded themselves as something so different than romans during the middle ages, apart from local identities. But wasn't an italian speciality to keep that identity in Europe.

I mostly agree with this thing of the WRE, also in 616 the italian exarch of Ravenna actually tried to usurp the title of Rome in the West, so that it's perfectly plausible, the Lombards were in the middle of a strong process of "italianization/romanization" during this time, as you can see from their architecture:
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(that's actually a lombard church)
They adopted the name "Kings of Italy" and not "Of the Lombards", and even their kings started to adopt the Roman family name "Flavius" in some official documents, and there are some historians that argue that this was an attempt to claim some legitimacy to rule in Italy as native indipendent ruler. (And in the christian western world to be really indipendent you need to be an emperor, that's why the later story of "rex est imperator in regno suo")
In an alternative history setting, if Charles fail imho is really probable an usurpation of the title from a particular ambitious lombard king who hold Rome (And not Ravenna, that was never the capital but the imperial seat, if the President of the USA reside in fort Alamo for a crisis the capital will remain Washington).
It will be also fun to see interactions with the ERE, they can maybe recognize that title, or if they refuse be forced to recognize it after a "civil" war. At the end it will be an insteresting flavour if the WRE can be the only western imperial title who can interact with the pope exactly like the byzantine interact with the patriarch, caesaropapism like "if you don't crown me I'll choice a better pope"
 
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Western Europeans already tried to resurrect the WRE twice - first as Carolingian Empire and then as Holy Roman Empire (and the overlap between them). They already have their WRE, and it is called the Holy Roman Empire.

If we want to be technical... The Carolingian Empire and the Holy Roman Empire were the SAME realm. There was no difference between them. Also they didn't overlap by time. There was only a short interregnum until the Ottonians toke the crown again. By name they were allways called 'Roman Empire'. The Carolingian Empire wasn't called this. It was called 'Roman Empire'. And the Holy Roman Empire was not called 'Holy' before the 12th century. It was only added to claim indepence from the pope.
 
No. The Ottonians themselves made the difference between their empire and the Carolingian one. They evoked a translatio imperii from the Franks to the Saxons. The holy roman empire as restored by the ottonians was based on the notion of peoples: Saxons, Thuringians, Burgundians, Bavarians, etc. Conversely the Carolingian Empire (at least until Charles the bald and especially under Louis the Pious) establishes the county system in the same way throughout the empire. So yes, there is spiritual parentage, but the imperial structures are extremely different between the Carolingian era which is still heir to the Roman organisation of power and is not strictly speaking a feudal empire, and the Ottonian empire wich engages frankly in the feudal process and is a strucure where the emperor is a "primus inter pares" (an idea which is reinforced since Henri by the notion of election of the king then of the emperor). When we look how the carolingians were considered by the aristocraty or how the state notion was confused with the imperial domain, we can't see anything like this under the HRE . The only valuable claim of legacy is the imperial title .
 
The Holy Roman Empire is very different in its political conception of what is the Western Roman Empire. It is much more focused on the notion of Christendom than of Romanity. I think it would be great to have another empire with the Holy Empire, for italian and roman cultures, and even for the Byzantines to potentially divide the Roman Empire between an Eastern Emperor and a Western Emperor.
The most improbable in the imperial restoration, as proposed by CK2, is to not propose the division of the empire whereas an emperor of the East who would have managed to reconquer the West would probably have given himself a colleague. Justinian, even though his reconquest was strictly Mediterranean and concerned only close and coherent territories around the sea, dismissed belisarius precisely because during the conquest of Italy, the goths have proposed him to Ravenna to take the imperial title for the West (or a royal title depending of the translation from Procope). I think that an empire that would give casus bellis against all the provinces of WRE (Gaul, Brittany, Africa, Hispania and Noricum) to an Italian or a Roman pretender would be logical. Or we must review the conditions of creation of the holy roman empire because as it is now it's not allowed when you play the Byzantine Empire.
In game the holy Roman empire if founded by the player it can be anything the player wants to role play I once founded the HRE as a Roman cultured empire of Hispania and then took over the lands of the old WRE.