CK2: Dev Diary #117 - Historical Wonders

[Lord Hoosier]

No Hagia Sophia, that's wasted potential. Other than that I love this Free DLC.

 

[anomanderus]

Not even the Hagia Sophia? That seems like an odd choice, given that the Hagia Sophia was something of a 'cathedral amongst cathedrals'.

That said, still really impressed. Looking forward to the update!

Speculation: Hagia Sophia will be free in a future update, which will be dedicated to fleshing out non-Catholic Christianity.

 

[Andrzej I]

Speculation: Hagia Sophia will be free in a future update, which will be dedicated to fleshing out non-Catholic Christianity.

Oh, if only. Non-Catholic denominations are sorely lacking in features, especially the Orthodox! I can only hope that Orthodoxy might get a bit of a focus come next expansion/update. At least something to choose patriarchs instead of it being a random lowborn.

 

[Fulgrim]

Different types of province modifier will apply depending on the type of Great Work it originated from. The following list will define the effects of the fully completed Great Works in converted EU4 games:


Cathedrals
Local Tax Modifier +100%
Papal Influence +1

Will it be changed if the religion of my country in EU4 and CK2 is not-Catholic christian religion, e.g. it is orthodoxy?

 

[Deathbyfood]

Any ideas if this could break my Ironman save?

 

[SnowHawkKiller]

After reading the list, I immediately thought "There should be a Hagia Sophia in Constantinople" then turned to the forums to express my shock only to see that everyone else has beat me to it

 

[Sarog]

As much as I don't like to post just to repeat something that virtually everyone has said and agreed upon... it's ridiculous to overlook the Hagia Sophia.

The Hagia Sophia is THE definitive medieval wonder. It had more impact on the world at this time than all of Paradox's historical wonders (except the House of Wisdom). It's credited with the conversion of all of Russia. It was unequalled for almost a thousand years. Stonehenge just sat there, an irrelevant curiosity. The comment on the stream that the Hagia Sophia only became relevant when it was turned into a moque is mind-bafflingly ingnorant.

I hate being negative over free content that looks very nifty, but why this weird fixation on irrelevant ancient wonders that simply did not matter during this period at the expense of legitimate medieval wonders that speak to medieval genius and had great importance to the medieval mindset? In addition to the Hagia Sophia, where are all the muslim wonders? The great mosques? Nothing in Mecca? It makes me wonder if the current CK team even likes the medieval period, or just wishes they were working on Imperator.

Still, it's great to get free content at this point in the game's lifespan. Looking forward to it.

 

[anomanderus]

As much as I don't like to post just to repeat something that virtually everyone has said and agreed upon... it's ridiculous to overlook the Hagia Sophia.

The Hagia Sophia is THE definitive medieval wonder. It had more impact on the world at this time than all of Paradox's historical wonders (except the House of Wisdom). It's credited with the conversion of all of Russia. It was unequalled for almost a thousand years. Stonehenge just sat there, an irrelevant curiosity. The comment on the stream that the Hagia Sophia only became relevant when it was turned into a moque is mind-bafflingly ingnorant.

I hate being negative over free content that looks very nifty, but why this weird fixation on irrelevant ancient wonders that simply did not matter during this period at the expense of legitimate medieval wonders that speak to medieval genius and had great importance to the medieval mindset? In addition to the Hagia Sophia, where are all the muslim wonders? The great mosques? Nothing in Mecca? It makes me wonder if the current CK team even likes the medieval period, or just wishes they were working on Imperator.

Still, it's great to get free content at this point in the game's lifespan. Looking forward to it.

Look I'm just saying if there are /obvious/ and /strange/ omissions in Byzantium and the Middle East it should be obvious that it's because Paradox is saving those for future updates which flesh out Orthodoxy and Islam more.

I mean we've got many extremely obscure or not too relevant things in game right now, like the entire Taoist religion for that little bit of China on the far edge of the map. I would gamble it is more likely that these are deliberate omissions, to be inserted at a later update in a year or so, than Paradox just dropping the ball.

 

[Sarog]

Look I'm just saying if there are /obvious/ and /strange/ omissions in Byzantium and the Middle East it should be obvious that it's because Paradox is saving those for future updates which flesh out Orthodoxy and Islam more.

I mean we've got many extremely obscure or not too relevant things in game right now, like the entire Taoist religion for that little bit of China on the far edge of the map. I would gamble it is more likely that these are deliberate omissions, to be inserted at a later update in a year or so, than Paradox just dropping the ball.

That's more wishful thinking than obvious. Wishful thinking I share - don't mistake me. At this point in the game's life, Orthodoxy and Islam are the clear contenders for what needs attention next. But this isn't being bundled with a DLC, there's no clear benefit to holding back on the most obvious medieval wonders - if an upcoming DLC was going to interact with the wonders feature, history suggests that Paradox would have bundled wonders with that DLC. And they did make the whole "Hagia Sophia wasn't important until it became a mosque" gaffe. I don't think it's unreasonable for us to take Paradox at face value and respond to poor decisions in real time.

 

[Andrzej I]

The comment on the stream that the Hagia Sophia only became relevant when it was turned into a mosque is mind-bafflingly ingnorant.

In more ways than one. I'd honestly argue that when the Hagia Sophia was turned into a mosque, it became far more irrelevant. As you said, when it was a cathedral, it is credited with inspiring the Rus to convert, with stunning those who beheld it with awe and wonder. As a mosque, I can recall no such praise. In fact, under the early Ottomans, it was falling into disrepair.

 

[Serenity84]

In fact, under the early Ottomans, it was falling into disrepair.

It was already in a bad state when they took it over. It was damaged and looted in the fighting against the Ottomans, but that also happened previously during the Fourth Crusade and the general decline of the late empire.

 

[Andrzej I]

True enough! Still, the Ottomans took a while to repair it. That said, the point is that to claim the Hagia Sophia was more relevant as a mosque is blatantly false and more than a bit troubling to hear espoused.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Agreed - the most important thing about Hagia Sophia as a Mosque was the symbolism of converting it, in the midst of Divine Service, to both Christians and Muslims. Within a few decades the Ottomans built larger mosques that Eclipsed it.

It's also troubling there's nothing in Mecca or Medina - possibly even more troubling than the Hagia Sofia if we're being honest, although only barely.

 

[Andrzej I]

The most important thing about Hagia Sophia as a Mosque was the symbolism of converting it, in the midst of Divine Service, to both Christians and Muslims. Within a few decades the Ottomans built larger mosques that Eclipsed it.

Indeed so. And as hinted at below, the mosques in Mecca, Medina, etc. were always more important than the Hagia-now-a-mosque-Sophia.

It's also troubling there's nothing in Mecca or Medina - possibly even more troubling than the Hagia Sofia if we're being honest, although only barely.

Eh, not sure I fully agree. Maybe the Sacred Mosque, with the Kaaba, but even then... as mentioned prior, the Hagia Sophia is credited as the motivator for the Rus to convert. It's difficult to top that, I think. Regardless, yes, that is definitely a glaring omission as well. I'm not sure why we got largely disregarded ancient wonders, including some in severe disrepair, over wonders that were captivating the people of the time and still in active use.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Indeed so. And as hinted at below, the mosques in Mecca, Medina, etc. were always more important than the Hagia-now-a-mosque-Sophia.

Eh, not sure I fully agree. Maybe the Sacred Mosque, with the Kaaba, but even then... as mentioned prior, the Hagia Sophia is credited as the motivator for the Rus to convert. It's difficult to top that, I think. Regardless, yes, that is definitely a glaring omission as well. I'm not sure why we got largely disregarded ancient wonders, including some in severe disrepair, over wonders that were captivating the people of the time and still in active use.

Given that the Kaaba is the most sacred site in Islam and has a gigantic Mosque built around it even in the earliest start I'd say that's about as troubling as Hagia Sophia. The Kaaba is important to all Muslims, the Hagia Sophia was more something that became important to you once you saw it/heard about it.

Again, it's importance after the Medieval period is the story of its conversion.

 

[Sarog]

Given that the Kaaba is the most sacred site in Islam and has a gigantic Mosque built around it even in the earliest start I'd say that's about as troubling as Hagia Sophia. The Kaaba is important to all Muslims, the Hagia Sophia was more something that became important to you once you saw it/heard about it.

Regardless, I think we can all agree that both of them are multiple orders of magnitude more meaningful to this period than a bunch of rocks in an English field.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

The most obvious additions there are to add Hagia Sophia as something like a Lv 3-4 Cathedral to Constantinople, and a Lv1 Great Mosque to Mecca with a unique improvement to represent the Kaaba. The Mosque is Lv1 because there were many renovations and improvements to it over the game's timeline and this way it echos the Apostolic Palace in Rome starting as Lv1 so the Pope can spend all that cash he gets on something. It would give something interesting to check in on from time to time, to see as what point both those wonders have reached.

 

[Windwill]

The thing about the Kaaba is (and correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t know much about this) wasn’t its significance primarily as the Islamic main Holy Site, which is already represented in game by the Holy Site Mechanic and Caliphal Mechanics? Unlike The Hagia Sophia, I don’t believe it was considered a marvel of engineering at the time. Though it was important, the building itself was not what provided it its significance, nor would many non-followers of Islam consider it a wonder.

 

[Windwill]

Also, the thing about Great Works is that we can’t just have Arabia have 12 Great Works right out of the gate. Once again, sometimes historical concessions (and even then, there wasn’t really a historical classification for Wonder and non-Wonder other than the 7) have to be made so that the Abbablob isn’t the only one getting use of this stuff.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

The thing about the Kaaba is (and correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t know much about this) wasn’t its significance primarily as the Islamic main Holy Site, which is already represented in game by the Holy Site Mechanic and Caliphal Mechanics? Unlike The Hagia Sophia, I don’t believe it was considered a marvel of engineering at the time. Though it was important, the building itself was not what provided it its significance, nor would many non-followers of Islam consider it a wonder.

It doesn't have to be a marvel of engineering to provide some benefit to the person who holds it. This is something that represents the benefits of being the controller of the center of Islamic pilgrimage, which includes both prestige/piety and economic benefits. At the present time, this isn't represented with anything in the game. It would also be unique to Mecca and no other Great Mosque could gain this benefit. It would almost certainly be an improvement that gives a significant boost to monthly gold and either some piety or prestige.