CK2 Dev Diary #79 - Beautifying the Baltics

[Keizer Harm]

This one would be covered by the custom empire decision though

Not exactly, since you have to gain a ton of ahistorical land to get it in-game.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Not exactly, since you have to gain a ton of ahistorical land to get it in-game.

Really? If I remember correctly, you'd need three kingdom titles and 8,000 prestige, so gaining the crowns of Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria should be enough. And that looks consistent with the following map, though I admit I know next to nothing about the Bulgarian Empire, so correct me if I'm wrong:

EDIT: Or Greece, Bulgaria and Wallachia in the case of the Second Empire:

 

[LumberKing]

Lets hope so its long overdue

I'd much prefer an update since it's in the name of the game.

 

[Kljunas]

Getting Greece or Serbia might require some extra blobbing I guess. But I'd prefer the custom empire decision to be loosened a bit to make it fit Bulgaria rather than a special new decision, because imo Bulgaria is like the perfect historical example of that feature (prestigious/powerful kingdom that elevates itself to the rank of empire).

 

[Kayden_II]

This is one of the few map-overhauls, which looks rather "strange" ...
I can't really recognize "east prussia", "tukums" has this land-extension instead of "vanema" and I hope, that the de-jure-distribution is more reasonable than the one ("riga", "tukums" and the 3 isles for example) in the pic.

 

[Slime99]

Here's some Rus maps for map material, don't know how reliable these are, but other maps that look similar can be found a lot.

 

[Mortheim]

snip

Maps are useful, but they are not helpful without corresponding source.
And, well, those maps aren't the best out there - they ignore a lot of cities. Do you see Vladimir on the third map? I don't. And last researches have proofs that it was founded in 990 - 9 years earlier than Suzdal.

 

[Myrkull]

Is there gonna be region revamp in Kingdom of Pomerania? Especially province of Brandenburg could be divided, to better represent Lutici tribes, and island of Rugia should be made into two provinces, and have a duchy title, as there was princedom of Rugia.

 

[sreckom92]

The only explanation I can think of is “because reasons”.

I'd personally want it only to have a sensible border in the south.
Jungles of central Africa would provide a great natural barrier. I would know that my expansion further south is hampered by actual impassable terrain, rather than by an arbitrary line.

 

[TheDungen]

I'd personally want it only to have a sensible border in the south.
Jungles of central Africa would provide a great natural barrier. I would know that my expansion further south is hampered by actual impassable terrain, rather than by an arbitrary line.

Seriously yes, it always grates me when provinces hug the border of the map, much better to chose some real natural boundary and have a sliver of wasteland between the edge and the closest provinces.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Really? If I remember correctly, you'd need three kingdom titles and 8,000 prestige, so gaining the crowns of Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria should be enough. And that looks consistent with the following map, though I admit I know next to nothing about the Bulgarian Empire, so correct me if I'm wrong:

EDIT: Or Greece, Bulgaria and Wallachia in the case of the Second Empire:

It is hard to consider the first map's Greek part "wartime control or extent of raids" a real part of Bulgaria. It sounds like occupied territory, which is already modelled in-game and does not allow you to claim a royal title.
For the second map, it says "vassal territories", which looks like the CKII-tributaries to me.
So I think the decision would be the best way for the historical development to happen.

 

[IntoTheMaelstrom]

Be sure to move Kolno (city where I finished high school,yay) from podlasie to lomza county

 

[elvain]

As explained elsewhere, East Africa was a key part of the Medieval world, with one of the highest GDP *and* population in all of Afro-Eurasia.
It has a unique culture, and was the world's heart of slavery - arguably one of the most important currencies/trade goods of the Middle Ages.

And as @TheDungen kindly explained, it's a unique setting not really explored anywhere else in video games, and who is best than Paradox to get that right? Whether it is worth it to alter the map projection to add some two dozen provinces is up to the devs, but at the very least I hope more of East Africa in CK3.

It was indeed very important part of medieval Eastern trade network - by which I mean the whole network of Indian ocean, or we could consider it part of the Islamic trade network.
It was indeed one of the 2 principal African sources of slaves in Africa (with the Kanem/Bornu area) and in the eastern Islamic world the Zanj(Zanji) slaves were certainly more frequent than the 'Abid slaves originating from West Africa (mainly Kanem/Bornu area which isn't on the map either, but that could at least be added simply by filling the bottom part of the existing map). OTOH, I don't fear to say that for Syro-Palestine and Egypt the western slave market was more essential.

The case is - if they would consider doing anything with Africa (I wish) with the very limited resources they have, what are the odds:
1) They can fill the existing map, research and fix what already is in, but isn't covered or is covered rather badly. Only this is quite large effort worth several dozens of hours in research and another few dozens of hours put into implementation of the research into the game. Those are just rough estimates though for shallow research of sombody who knows where to search. Only this is something which is stretching the devs capacities, unless they aim for African DLC, which would make the research more effective.
2) they can expand the map little further south, as suggested by @klopkr to include the Guf of Guinea and its coast. This would of course require all the work described above plus - let me guess - another several dozens, but rather 100+ hours of work, since for research of this area you need to seek additional sources (the ones covering the Sahel - Ghana/Wagadu and Mali often also cover the Kanem-Bornu area, while for the southern Nigeria - the coastal Niger Delta and the coastal areas - you need another sources). This is for areas where my original estimate (in the west) was some 5-6 new provinces. If we go in bigger detail and don't mind having provinces with no historical rulers all the way until 1300 (almost the entire CK2 era) and until the late 12th century even very imaginary tribal entities, we could get to some 10-12 provinces in the West (not counting the provinces which would be added in the Kanem-Bornu area and with overhaul of existing Africa). In the east this southward push could add the Somali coast, which I would roughly estimate to some 2-3 coastal and 6-8 provinces in the mainland south of Ethiopia. After having some read I do admit my orginal estimate was too small.
That gives us 100+ hrs of research, few dozens hours of implementation plus several dozens of hours necessary for changing the map projection and work connected to it.
This second expansion means some new provinces on both sides of Africa, roughly almost two dozens, worth together almost 200 work hours.
3) then there could be expansion further south, as you suggest, to include also the Swahili coast all the way to Kilwa. As i said I do admit this is indeed important, but consider the cost. For that you need another few dozens of hours of research plus few dozens for implementation. Though the implementation wouldn't need that much additional work, since the projection would have to be changed either way, if the map is expanded. It would also not be that costly because this expansion only has provinces worth adding in the east - by the coast. Between Mogadisho and Kilwa I could imagine some 6-8 CK2 provinces, perhaps even 10-12 if the inland hinterland has more depth.
This expansion however would only add provinces to this region. Nowhere else.

The question is. Does PDS CK2 team has the capacities for this? And is adding Kilwa worth it?

 

[Artaios Greybark]

Some of those Rus counties really need to be made coastal.

 

[Enriador]

The question is. Does PDS CK2 team has the capacities for this? And is adding Kilwa worth it?

Indeed, in retrospect I think it's not worth it when there are existing areas (like Mali) which are seriously underrepresented. Here's my hopes for CK3 then.

Thanks for the detailed opinion, as always a pleasure to read (big fan of ibn Battuta's Legacy).

 

[Byzantium2000]

Really? If I remember correctly, you'd need three kingdom titles and 8,000 prestige, so gaining the crowns of Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria should be enough. And that looks consistent with the following map, though I admit I know next to nothing about the Bulgarian Empire, so correct me if I'm wrong:

EDIT: Or Greece, Bulgaria and Wallachia in the case of the Second Empire:

You shouldn't need Greece to form it the Bulgarians could never maintain actual control over most of Greece for even one generation, taking a few Greek duchies would be more accurate, also that second map is SUPER overblown the Bulgarian kingdom couldn't come close to the might, prestige or recognition that the Bulgarian empire had, also since the Bulgarian empire existed in time not covered by the game it needs to be evaluated just how far a player or ai needs to go to form it and what it's new dejure should be, also should it have its own special creation decision or should it be a existing dejure empire just renamed and culture tied? Also if a empire of Bulgaria is added I'd say it should be only formable in 769 and 867 after 1066 the ultimate goal of Bulgarians is usurping the Byzantine Empire.

 

[Vierwood]

I say just have Rowan re-do your entire map! Have you seen how beautiful his maps are!

 

[klopkr]

@elvain how do you feel about making the Nile a major river from roughly Cairo to one of the Cataracts? Technically it'd be unsailable unless it was its own ocean tile which is unfortunate but at least it could give some major river crossing maluses and be more inline with other major rivers.

I kind of wish you could raise boat levies and build trade posts along major rivers but I suppose it would break the river fortification mechanic and cause other troubles. Maybe it could even have a special mechanic that speeds up troop movement between adjacent counties touching the Nile but not across it to represent the use of boats for speedy transportation in the region.

 

[Oliver*]

As explained by the EU4 team provinces are for tactics while development, or in the case of ck2 holdings, represent population. You also obviously have other things like tech government type, possible holdings, already existing holdings and so on.It's not a bad system but unfortunately one which caps out a bit to quickly. At that point provinces really start representing population and wealth which is unfortunate.

Sorry for late reply but why do you correct me on this, you saw and commented on my thread where i compared population to holdings, you were also the only person to disagree with the calculations. I didn't bother saying holdings because IMO it's a pretty safe bet that when more provinces are added there's going to be more holdings. As for EU4 development that is also what i compared to population in my reply to Arthur, and tech is an example i used to defend your point about Scandinavian holdings.

 

[CorpusIurisCivilis]

I god damn called it!!! I knew we were gonna have the Kingdom of Estonia!!!
Next, we will either get a re-working in Thrace, or see new provinces in North Africa!!!