• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #83 - God Wills It!

Greetings!

PDXCon is soon upon us, and we hope to see you there! During the event we will reveal the name and theme of the Expansion we’re working on, and after PDXCon is over we’ll have plenty of Dev Diaries that will delve deep into the new expansion features. For now though we’d like to present the main feature of the free patch that’ll accompany the Expansion!

It is time to don your armor and ready your steed, as the Vicar of Christ himself has declared that all who join in expelling the infidel from the Holy Land will have their sins absolved!

The Crusades are a very iconic part of the game, though one that has barely seen any change since the game was released 6 years ago. A lot of fantastic and interesting systems have been added to the game over the years, and we wanted this very central feature to feel as deep and interesting as any one of them.

The Catholic faith will no longer use the old Great Holy War system - instead they will use a new and improved system specifically tailored to both increase immersion and enhance the gameplay surrounding the crusades. This system is massive, and it might be hard for us to fit all of the information into this single DD, but we’ll give it our best shot!

We have specifically aimed to fix the issue where, unless you intend to win the crusade, there was no real reason for you as a player to participate except to get the ‘Crusader’ trait.

To accomplish this we’ve made Catholic crusades work in two phases; first there is a Preparation Phase, followed by the actual war. To communicate this properly we needed a new dedicated interface. Enter, the Crusade View:

CrusadeDD_PrepPhase.png

Holy shield, on the wall, which is the holiest city of them all?

When the pope decides that it's time for a new Crusade, he will send a call to the Catholic world for support. When he does you can access the Crusade View by clicking the Crusade Banner underneath your portrait.

In the Crusade View you will have access to a plethora of useful information, and you’ll be able to take actions to help the crusade or to alter its course. You will be able to see the Pope’s proposed recipient (if any) in the top left corner, and the target character and title in the top right. There will be a timer counting down to the date where the war will start. During this time, the following can be done:
  • Catholic rulers can pledge their military support to the crusade. When they do, they appear in the list of Pledged Participants. For every crusader that pledges, prestige, piety and artifacts are added to the War Chest. The religion being targeted by the crusade can ‘counter pledge’, and it’s the relative strength of these two sides that is shown as ‘Total Strength’ underneath their portraits. Pledged rulers will automatically be called into the war as it starts.
  • All Catholic rulers get the option of donating money to the War Chest in exchange for piety and opinion with the Pope. This money is then added to the War Chest, more on that later.
  • Crusaders who have pledged military support can add a beneficiary to the crusade. This character must be a dynasty member, and depending on your participation in the crusade they might be granted a title in the Crusader Kingdom should the crusade be successful. More on this later.
  • Players can pay piety to change the target character and/or title. This cost starts fairly low, but doubles each time to avoid spamming. This means that if you’d rather have a crusade target a scary infidel realm on your immediate border, you can make it happen if you’re pious enough!
  • Players can choose their ‘Stance’ on what they want to happen should they be the most participating crusader. More on this later.

If a Catholic ruler chooses to neither pledge to the crusade or donate money to the War Chest, the Pope might get very upset with them. Depending on the rulers tier and influence, this can range from a simple piety hit to an outright excommunication. Revoking your pledge also carries a similar penalty.

Regarding the War Chest - when the preparation phase is over, 20% of the money in the War Chest will be divided between the pledged Crusaders, in order to provide for their levies and fleets as they go to war. The rest is saved until the end of the Crusade, where it is used as rewards for the participants and to set up the Crusader Kingdom. The Crusader Kingdom will receive 10% of the War Chest in order to steel them against imminent counterattacks. The rest (including prestige, piety and artifacts) is given out to the Crusaders who participated in the crusade, in order to motivate you as the player to participate as much as you can - even if you don’t expect to win. To ensure that the top contributors don't take all of the War Chest rewards, any one participant can receive at most 20% of it. As the Catholic world tends to be rather… generous with their donations, this often translates into a lot of wealth! Beware though, if the crusade is lost the majority of the contents of the War Chest will be lost, and Christendom will be weaker for it...

When the Preparation Phase is over, the war begins and the Crusade View changes:
CrusadeDD_WarPhase.png

Note that the numbers are still WIP.

The Countdown Timer is replaced by the warscore and the name of the Crusade is updated, otherwise the functionality remains the same (except for being able to change the target, of course, at this point it’s too late for that).

If the Crusade is successful, what will happen depends on the top contributor’s stance. There are three stances; ‘Selfish’, ‘For my Beneficiary’ and ‘Comply with Papal Demands’. The AI will always choose to go with Papal Demands.
  • The ‘Selfish’ stance will see the top contributor take the lands for themselves. Doing this completely disqualifies them from the War Chest though, and is seen as impious by the Pope.
  • The ‘For my Beneficiary’ stance will see your beneficiary become King/Queen of the lands. While still not approved by the Pope, it’s not seen as impious, and you still qualify for (parts) of the War Chest. If the pope has chosen no recipient for the title, this is the default behaviour and carries no penalties.
  • The ‘Comply with Papal Demands’ stance simply sees whoever the Pope wishes to rule the lands become the King or Queen. If he has no opinion, it will go to the top contributor’s beneficiary.

In the old system, the title and all under it went to the winner of the crusade. You often saw France or the HRE own for example Jerusalem, which in all honesty was very boring, and more often than not only resulted in an inheritance mess. While a player can still choose to use the old system by choosing the ‘Selfish’ stance, the new default behaviour is completely different. Unless the Pope wishes to restore an existing King or Claimant (where the normal, old, behaviour will be used) a Crusader Kingdom will be set up:

CrusadeDD_JerusalemAllSetUp.png


A Crusader Kingdom is a multicultural kingdom made up of the beneficiaries of all participants. The top contributing participants will have their beneficiaries get higher titles in the target kingdom. To avoid the player gaming the system using inheritance, the Kingdom is always set up to disallow external inheritance - and the AI tends to choose beneficiaries that do not stand to inherit or are married to someone who might inherit.

If your beneficiary receives land in a Crusader Kingdom, your entire Dynasty will receive a monthly boon to piety until their death. In a future Dev Diary we will go into more detail regarding the importance of Piety in the Catholic sphere, but rest assured that it’s going to be more important to be seen as pious than it’s ever been before - making the boon from your beneficiary rather significant.

The new ruler of the Crusader State, in order to properly rule such a challenging realm, gets a trait appropriately named ‘Crusader King/Queen’ which confers a massive same religion opinion along with some other goodies.

And, for the finale, if your beneficiary is selected to be the King or Queen of the Kingdom - you have the option of switching over to them, taking control of the newly established Crusader Kingdom and leaving your old character behind (which is also part of the reason why you can only choose members of your own dynasty as beneficiaries). We believe that doing a thing such as this will provide the quintessential CK2 experience, where you have to both manage unruly vassals and defend against vengeful religious foes!

Stay tuned for future Dev Diaries, where we might go into detail on a few… special crusades.
 
Firstly, this all looks great and the Crusader States creation is particularly fantastic. Are the mechanics for acquiring the new Crusader State the same as for the overall Crusade Target? - e.g. if you chose a recipient and "For my Beneficiary" stance, your beneficiary would gain the new Crusader State if you win enough in the secondary duchy but not enough of the kingdom? What happens if you conquer a secondary duchy and gain main contribution on the main kingdom? Do you (or beneficiary) gain both?

Regarding acquiring the new land, is it possible to make it so that the player is the beneficiary, but abdicates their old land? e.g. Godfrey de Bouillon, who sold his lands before going on crusade and became de facto first King of Jerusalem? In game, modelling that by abdicating old titles at the moment the crusade achieves victory is a good simulation of that - unless there's a way of abdicating/mortgaging your holdings the moment it starts, and become an adventurer who participants in the Crusade.
 
Out of curiosity, how long has the crusade rework been in the plans? I see some similarities with some ideas discussed in previous threads (including this one, close to the release of JD) and am curious as to whether the decision to rework crusades was triggered by some discussion about it in the forum (which, granted, has been a reoccuring discussion for a long time) or if it just was something that has been sitting on a list of "Stuff we might do in CK2 in the future" and the various ideas on the forum merely were thrown into the mix in a brainstorming session or the like.
 
I love this!!! I also hope the Orthodox, Miaphysite, and Nestorian Christianities get a bit more flavor. I understand they're not the focus of the new release but it's always been weird to play Abyssinia and for the Coptic church to be essentially a reskinned Orthodox Church when historically the Coptic Church had a ton of conflicts between the Coptic Pope proper and patriarchs under him to the point that Ethiopia actually wasn't an independent patriarchate until the 1970's.

But still, I love this! I feel like it's taking some of the lackluster parts of Catholicism and really turning it into a good system.

Also, I kinda hope there's a game rule about what kind of crusades be called or used.
 
Last edited:
Several people say this, absolutely nobody says what should be changed or what is missing in original GHWs.

For jihads, they have historical exemples, so it's tougher to come up with ideas that would make sense.

GHW however is fancyful content, new crusade mechanic is simply cooler than old one, so it would not be more ahistorical to implement some of the new crusade mechanics into that (these include the religious head having a say in what's going on, not being transfered direct ownership of all the conquered titles, being able to choose a beneficiary and the whole warchest and stuff). It doesn't need to be all of this, going from top participation takes all to whoever contributes can get a landed relative inside the new kingdom would be a big step in making it more attractive/fun.
 
Firstly, this all looks great and the Crusader States creation is particularly fantastic. Are the mechanics for acquiring the new Crusader State the same as for the overall Crusade Target? - e.g. if you chose a recipient and "For my Beneficiary" stance, your beneficiary would gain the new Crusader State if you win enough in the secondary duchy but not enough of the kingdom? What happens if you conquer a secondary duchy and gain main contribution on the main kingdom? Do you (or beneficiary) gain both?

Regarding acquiring the new land, is it possible to make it so that the player is the beneficiary, but abdicates their old land? e.g. Godfrey de Bouillon, who sold his lands before going on crusade and became de facto first King of Jerusalem? In game, modelling that by abdicating old titles at the moment the crusade achieves victory is a good simulation of that - unless there's a way of abdicating/mortgaging your holdings the moment it starts, and become an adventurer who participants in the Crusade.

The Crusader States appears throughout the war, whereas the distribution of the Crusader Kingdom happens when the war has been finished. So if your beneficiary receives the titles in the Crusader State, the beneficiary is landed and no longer appropriate as a beneficiary for the Crusader Kingdom title. So they will be removed as your Beneficiary, and you will have to find a new one.

Currently not possible to abdicate your own lands, no.
 
I love this!!! I also hope the Orthodox, Miaphysite, and Nestorian Christianities get a bit more flavor. I understand they're not the focus of the new release but it's always been weird to play Abyssinia and for the Coptic church to be essentially a reskinned Orthodox Church when historically the Coptic Church had a ton of conflicts between the Coptic Pope proper and patriarchs under him to the point that Ethiopia actually wasn't an independent patriarchate until the 1970's.

But still, I love this! I feel like it's taking some of the lackluster parts of Catholicism and really turning it into a good system.

Also, I kinda hope there's a game rule about what kind of crusades be called or used.
This is very much me as well. Even allowing different flavours of Christians to defend each other against the perceived real infidel in the Levant etc would be a help and make for some more interesting situations, i.e. I might think you're a schismatic but I won't let you fall to the enemy.
 
Upon victory, only the Crusader Kingdom will be formed. However, there is a new event that can pop up throughout the war, where Crusader States can be made, before the war has reached completion.
Alright, I want this patch right now pretty please
 
GHW however is fancyful content, new crusade mechanic is simply cooler than old one, so it would not be more ahistorical to implement some of the new crusade mechanics into that (these include the religious head having a say in what's going on, not being transfered direct ownership of all the conquered titles, being able to choose a beneficiary and the whole warchest and stuff). It doesn't need to be all of this, going from top participation takes all to whoever contributes can get a landed relative inside the new kingdom would be a big step in making it more attractive/fun.

The new mechanic would make little sense for Pagans/Zoroastrians though: this Crusader mechanic works because there are countless Catholic realms, whereas GHWs exist in parallel history where there is just a Pagan/Zoroastrian Behemoth who might have a tiny neighbor or two of the same religion (and only if the player feels like it). When only the Behemoth and its vassals participate in this grand invasion, there is not much point to have shared war chests, levies or conflicts on who claims this or that.
 
Looking forward to a crusade-centric expansion!

I do question if having the AI always concede to papal demands is the best AI behavior? I think it would be better if the AI could choose which beneficiary to install based on the AI leader's personality... for instance an ambitious AI ruler could install his or her preferred beneficiary or a greedy ruler could choose a selfish stance, creating an impetus for players to commit to the crusade to block AI rivals from taking territory.
 
This looks awesome.
I hope you look at the possibility of destroying The Papacy as well. And other Permanent Religious Titles.
It gets rather annoying when The Pope declares the 20th Crusade for France, when there are no realms that practice Catholicism as a faith, and in fact Catholicism has been wiped out. It would make sense that after being driven out, and with no realm willing to give The Pope titles, there is a chance after so long that the Pope dies and no one selects a new Pope. And then after that event it slowly slides further and further till it is no longer an Organised Faith. Of course this could all be reversed with decisions as a Catholic Character.
You could apply this to a few Religions as well.
I would like to see Heresies overhauled as well. Especially since a lot of them don’t get the advantages of the Parent Religion in most cases. Perhaps make it so they can create a religious head, or if appropriate a council of high ranking religious figures. As long as they are an Organised Faith of course
 
The Crusader States appears throughout the war, whereas the distribution of the Crusader Kingdom happens when the war has been finished. So if your beneficiary receives the titles in the Crusader State, the beneficiary is landed and no longer appropriate as a beneficiary for the Crusader Kingdom title. So they will be removed as your Beneficiary, and you will have to find a new one.

That seems very sensible, cool. If it's not too much of a pain, what kind of thing allows for the creation of these states? Are they given out by the same logic of participation, or do they have their own logic for them? It'd be really cool if you have high participation and don't think the Crusade will be won/you will keep up participation score, so you can just opt to take the Crusader State now rather than risking gaining nothing later.

Currently not possible to abdicate your own lands, no.

That's a shame, but understandable. How moddable is this? Could one mod it so that landed people could be beneficiaries? If not, I imagine one could just create an event to change ownership after the fact.

On a related note, do adventurers tie into the new Crusade system at all? Could unlanded people try to gain their own armies (and thereby become adventurers) and come along for the ride, or is it a strictly landed ruler-only affair, still?
 
I hope you look at the possibility of destroying The Papacy as well.

This probably wont be possible for the same reason that the Pope can't be playable - he's used as the target for a lot of background events that would break without him and would spam the player constantly if they were playing as him. A significant rewrite of background code would be required. My view is that Catholics should simply have Crusades and their holy orders disabled if they get too small.
 
All Catholic rulers get the option of donating money to the War Chest in exchange for piety and opinion with the Pope. This money is then added to the War Chest, more on that later.

Wow, as I read the Dev Diary I honestly pictured this War Chest reaching maybe the low thousands, but 43K? That's impressive!
 
This probably wont be possible for the same reason that the Pope can't be playable - he's used as the target for a lot of background events that would break without him and would spam the player constantly if they were playing as him. A significant rewrite of background code would be required. My view is that Catholics should simply have Crusades and their holy orders disabled if they get too small.
Religious heads already can't call for Crusades (and other stuff like Excommunication) if the religious authority gets too small
 
The new mechanic would make little sense for Pagans/Zoroastrians though: this Crusader mechanic works because there are countless Catholic realms, whereas GHWs exist in parallel history where there is just a Pagan/Zoroastrian Behemoth who might have a tiny neighbor or two of the same religion (and only if the player feels like it). When only the Behemoth and its vassals participate in this grand invasion, there is not much point to have shared war chests, levies or conflicts on who claims this or that.

It makes some sense however if it creates a new (independant) kingdom upon victory, then odds are that your hudge behemoth won't be as alone as it used to.