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CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
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Not necessarily one that would come up, but what about this for an option.

Brothers (maybe same dynasty cousins) may share wives.
Forces Tanistry.

It'd reflect some possible tribal practices where a group held wives and land/titles/goods in common within the kin-group. At the death of a nominal title holder, the titles go back to the kin-group who assign them and the responsibilities to a new member.
 
Not necessarily one that would come up, but what about this for an option.

Brothers (maybe same dynasty cousins) may share wives.
Forces Tanistry.

It'd reflect some possible tribal practices where a group held wives and land/titles/goods in common within the kin-group. At the death of a nominal title holder, the titles go back to the kin-group who assign them and the responsibilities to a new member.

The former would require actually implementing polyandry (including updating stuff like the "My wife is pregnant, but I was away, wasn't I...?" event that might trigger if another husband is the father). I suspect that isn't trivial as it has been requested for modding purposes since forever.

The latter seems like it could cause some problems balance-wise since it would mess up the inheritance game for the faith, possibly would weaken vassals (since they can't be elected unless they share the liege's dynasty, can't marry one another or foreign co-religionists for inheritances), would make it impossible for different realms to peacefully merge without a shared dynasty, and might create other isseus. Of course, the Muslim succession law isn't particularly vassal-friendly either, but at least a Tanistry realm can be forced into another law without fully empowering the council...

Of course, both could be interesting to have if the devs feel like implementing them (though I'd probably never end up using them).
 
Will we have the ability to reform all the abrahamic heretic faiths and maybe establish them as a standalone faith? That would be awesome! Imagine turning the british isles to a lollard heaven and seperate them from the other christians and install a religous head as well!
 
The former would require actually implementing polyandry (including updating stuff like the "My wife is pregnant, but I was away, wasn't I...?" event that might trigger if another husband is the father). I suspect that isn't trivial as it has been requested for modding purposes since forever.

The latter seems like it could cause some problems balance-wise since it would mess up the inheritance game for the faith, possibly would weaken vassals (since they can't be elected unless they share the liege's dynasty, can't marry one another or foreign co-religionists for inheritances), would make it impossible for different realms to peacefully merge without a shared dynasty, and might create other isseus. Of course, the Muslim succession law isn't particularly vassal-friendly either, but at least a Tanistry realm can be forced into another law without fully empowering the council...

Of course, both could be interesting to have if the devs feel like implementing them (though I'd probably never end up using them).

It's certainly not a strong option, because it would trash inheriting other same-religion realms unless you can manage to get claims somehow.

It's an all or nothing combo though. The two deliberately go together, to reflect this concept of the dynasty owning land in common.

It might harm vassals, but it does mean that they won't accidentally lose titles either.


And yeah, I can see it needing some work, particularly the "but I was away" trigger... although perhaps some sort of (if wife is pregnant and real father is not married to woman) trigger adjustment could be made? I haven't looked closely at the involved code, so I don't know what work would be needed.
 
I feel like these reformation mechanics would also work very well with heresies. Pagan religions currently don't have any heresies (except the "old [pagan religion]" heresies. Would be really cool, along with your own reformed pagan religion, 1 or 2 other pagan religions with their own reformation slots would spawn as well.
 
Another mechanic that could bring changes with it is the coronation. I get it that christian emperor level rulers have titles that are derived from caesar and imperator (kaiser, tsar and emperor, respectively) and basileos for greeks, but those wouldn't really make sense for pagan emperors since they don't really claim continuity or connection to Rome. So maybe some simpler titles like High King or King of Kings would be better? Heck, why not just make it possible to create custom title names when your character is first coronated as emperor when the empire is created.

Speaking of empires, I still think there should be a de jure finno-ugric empire since there are now four finno-ugric kingdoms already :p
 
Another mechanic that could bring changes with it is the coronation. I get it that christian emperor level rulers have titles that are derived from caesar and imperator (kaiser, tsar and emperor, respectively) and basileos for greeks, but those wouldn't really make sense for pagan emperors since they don't really claim continuity or connection to Rome. So maybe some simpler titles like High King or King of Kings would be better? Heck, why not just make it possible to create custom title names when your character is first coronated as emperor when the empire is created.

Speaking of empires, I still think there should be a de jure finno-ugric empire since there are now four finno-ugric kingdoms already :p
Remind me, are they all connected?

How small would it leave the empires you'd be taking the kingdoms from?
 
Having a similar system for catholic heresies (or a chance to use such a mechanic to launch a new custom heresy) would be apt.

However, more dear to my heart is the request that with this new system, that religious heads of government should have tiers to their titles. I've long wished that I could mod the game so my Emperor Fylkir was not referred to as Fylkir but Fylkir-Kaiser (because they are often weird German feudal pagan.)
 
I'm wondering if there is the option between deciding whether your reformed religion becomes Dualistic or Polytheistic or even Gnostic. Heck combining a Polytheistic "Belief" with a Cosmopolitan Nature, Meritocracy and Haruspicy Doctrines and an Autocephalous Leadership...basically you'd have a subservient religious caste that tends to the pantheon of gods and adders to strict rules of conduct yet is tolerant of other faiths.
 
I'm wondering if there is the option between deciding whether your reformed religion becomes Dualistic or Polytheistic or even Gnostic. Heck combining a Polytheistic "Belief" with a Cosmopolitan Nature, Meritocracy and Haruspicy Doctrines and an Autocephalous Leadership...basically you'd have a subservient religious caste that tends to the pantheon of gods and adders to strict rules of conduct yet is tolerant of other faiths.
So polytheistic, cosmopolitan. That suggests a tenet that "all gods are real, and welcome". Alternatively, "your gods are our gods, but wearing masks and a different hat".

It's a meritocracy with an autocephalous doctrine. So different areas are led by the "best" or "greatest" priest in their area. Presumably the autocephalous leaders dictate which gods are favoured in their areas. Since they're also haruspices, the selection of which gods favour an area can be found by fondling the insides of animals.

The religious caste might be subservient, or might be highly competitive and seek to control society by setting challenges to advance through society. Interestingly, you'd need to show your competency *and* have favourable omens in such a case, but the omen could come from any god, not necessarily one internal to the faith.


Just my thoughts on such a combination.
 
So polytheistic, cosmopolitan. That suggests a tenet that "all gods are real, and welcome". Alternatively, "your gods are our gods, but wearing masks and a different hat".

It's a meritocracy with an autocephalous doctrine. So different areas are led by the "best" or "greatest" priest in their area. Presumably the autocephalous leaders dictate which gods are favoured in their areas. Since they're also haruspices, the selection of which gods favour an area can be found by fondling the insides of animals.

The religious caste might be subservient, or might be highly competitive and seek to control society by setting challenges to advance through society. Interestingly, you'd need to show your competency *and* have favourable omens in such a case, but the omen could come from any god, not necessarily one internal to the faith.


Just my thoughts on such a combination.

Yeah pretty much...although I was going for more of various Pontiffs that are subservient to a High Pontiff that is subservient to the ruler. Or maybe instead of making the High Pontiff a pope for autocephaly, make him a sort of Elder that gives counselling to all (a signority aspect I guess), but isn't really the leader.

But you get the idea i'm putting across right...maybe an option to choose how the belief/pantheon is would make for more interesting options no?
 
Yeah pretty much...although I was going for more of various Pontiffs that are subservient to a High Pontiff that is subservient to the ruler. Or maybe instead of making the High Pontiff a pope for autocephaly, make him a sort of Elder that gives counselling to all (a signority aspect I guess), but isn't really the leader.

But you get the idea i'm putting across right...maybe an option to choose how the belief/pantheon is would make for more interesting options no?
I like it.
I wonder whether a slot for monotheistic/dualist/polytheist (many gods)/pantheist (everything is god) would work? Although there are several other options, so it might get unwieldy (henotheists - worship solely of one god from your pantheon with other; monolatrists - other gods exist, but only this one is worthy of worship, (these last two being very similar on a personal level); non-theist but spiritualist; and kathenotheism - worship of one god at a time, depending on where you are and what you're doing being a few of the other, easier options).

I do wonder what a monotheistic outgrowth of Norse would pick as its central figure though. Odin, wise ruler? Thor, bane of evil? Tyr, giver of laws? Baldur, the reborn light? One of the many other options?
 
I like it.
I wonder whether a slot for monotheistic/dualist/polytheist (many gods)/pantheist (everything is god) would work? Although there are several other options, so it might get unwieldy (henotheists - worship solely of one god from your pantheon with other; monolatrists - other gods exist, but only this one is worthy of worship, (these last two being very similar on a personal level); non-theist but spiritualist; and kathenotheism - worship of one god at a time, depending on where you are and what you're doing being a few of the other, easier options).

I do wonder what a monotheistic outgrowth of Norse would pick as its central figure though. Odin, wise ruler? Thor, bane of evil? Tyr, giver of laws? Baldur, the reborn light? One of the many other options?

Maybe Ancestor Worship, viewing themselves as descendants of the Divine. I'm guessing such a belief would lead to more powerful culture bonus and could even combine well with the new Legacy/Dynasty mechanic with characters claiming direct "divine" ancestry. Hell combine it with Divine Blood and it would turn the ruler into a Living God (like Egyptian Pharaohs).
 
Maybe Ancestor Worship, viewing themselves as descendants of the Divine. I'm guessing such a belief would lead to more powerful culture bonus and could even combine well with the new Legacy/Dynasty mechanic with characters claiming direct "divine" ancestry. Hell combine it with Divine Blood and it would turn the ruler into a Living God (like Egyptian Pharaohs).

Dammit I want this as a mod now.
Even better if the responsible devs could squeeze it into the patch/DLC... :D
 
Dammit I want this as a mod now.
Even better if the responsible devs could squeeze it into the patch/DLC... :D

100% agree! Here's to hopping the devs take a look at our little brainstorm here... Plz add a belief/pantheon options guys.
 
I like it.
I wonder whether a slot for monotheistic/dualist/polytheist (many gods)/pantheist (everything is god) would work? Although there are several other options, so it might get unwieldy (henotheists - worship solely of one god from your pantheon with other; monolatrists - other gods exist, but only this one is worthy of worship, (these last two being very similar on a personal level); non-theist but spiritualist; and kathenotheism - worship of one god at a time, depending on where you are and what you're doing being a few of the other, easier options).

I do wonder what a monotheistic outgrowth of Norse would pick as its central figure though. Odin, wise ruler? Thor, bane of evil? Tyr, giver of laws? Baldur, the reborn light? One of the many other options?

Simplified henotheism/monolatry:

Henotheism- there are multiple valid gods, but we choose to worship only one of them. Examples: Classical Greece (Athena as the state deity of Athens), Later Rome (Sol Invictus), Hindu sects
Monolatry- there are multiple gods, but only one is valid for worship. Examples: Early Judaism ("No other gods before me")

The key difference between these two is that henotheism views any of their gods as "valid" choices, and is more similar to a patronage system. Monolatry, meanwhile, insists that even though there are multiple gods, only one of them should be worshiped, and from this logic it can be seen how proper monotheism could be developed from it.

Henotheism is like a permanent kathenotheism, while monolatry is like monotheism with acceptance of the existence of other gods.

As to the answer to your question- I'd wager it'd end up with Odin taking the "god" side, Thor as a "savior" type, and some other important gods as "angels". This is assuming the reformation is a parrot of Christianity- if it were not, then it might go the Brahmanist method of "THEY'RE ALL ASPECTS OF ONE" or the Hellenistic method of "But the wise ruler is The One, the supreme above the others."