• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

Greetings!

Bit of a sneaky DevDiary today - this Friday (when we usually post Dev Diaries) is the time for Midsummer celebrations here in Sweden, so we wouldn't be able to answer your questions! Tomorrow we'll be busy eating pickled herring and getting rained on, but today we're here for you!

By now it’s hardly a secret that the two main focuses for the Holy Fury expansion are going to be Catholicism as well as Paganism. Playing as a Catholic is core to the game, with a grounded set of rules for you to adhere to (and abuse). Playing a Pagan, in contrast, is a more visceral and instantly gratifying experience - with a strong emphasis on dynamism compared to the more rigid christian faiths. Before going any further, it’s worth noting that the Pagan religious group will be unlocked and playable with Holy Fury.

With Holy Fury, reforming a Pagan faith is no longer a one-click type of deal. Instead you’ll be able to tailor the new religion to become exactly what you want it to be through the new Reformation interface:
ReformationDD_ReformView.png


You will be able to open and preview this screen at any point while playing an unreformed pagan, allowing you to plan ahead what type of features you want to pick. We’ve also taken this opportunity to make the Bön religion reformable, to provide equal opportunity to the eastern Pagans.
ReformationDD_FeaturePicker.png


There are three different types of ‘slots’ to be filled in, the Nature, Doctrine and Leadership of the religion. The default selection will be thematically chosen depending on what faith you’re reforming - though there’s nothing stopping you from picking wildly divergent features, such as a Pacifistic Nature for the Germanic religion.

While most features will be available to all pagan religions, they will all have one unique doctrine that only they can pick. This is to enhance the differences between the various unreformed pagan faiths. The Germanic special feature will, for example, contain Seafaring and Prepared Invasions - something the other religions must spend two doctrine slots to get.

The possibilities with reformation are near endless, you’ll be able to make a religion that suits your specific needs. For example, if you’re surrounded by other religions (very common if playing Zun or Bön for example) the Cosmopolitan Nature would be advised, as then you can intermarry with your neighbors to create non-aggression pacts. If you’re tired of the Abrahamic religions and their incessant Crusades, you can adopt a Warmongering Nature combined with a Bloodthirsty Gods doctrine to really show them what you think of their weak rituals.

As there’s too many features for us to bring up right now, I’ll save them for a future Dev Diary. Worth noting is that several of the Doctrines you can choose will contain special events and decisions tied to them, so even if you’ve already played a game once where you reform a Pagan faith - you might just want to play another one, to see what could have been different.

To round off, here’s a few of our favorite reformation setups from us in the Dev Team:

ReformationDD_ReformViewRageair.png

Starting off with my own choice, I’m all about creating chaos - and there’s no greater way to achieve that than to promote not only close-kin marriage, but also harems on top of that! Once during a multiplayer with the Dev Team I managed to reform the religion most of us was playing into something similar to this. They were confused when their children started marrying each other, to say the least!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSnowcrystal.png

@Snow Crystal I like playing tall, so I like boosts that let me control who the Heir is, as well as making sure the heir is as popular as possible. I can't stand having a Religious Head that tells me what to do, and think Autocephalous is pretty cool. I don't really care about spreading my faith outside of my borders - if anything, I’d prefer everything outside my borders to be heathenous, so that I get more of a challenge!

ReformationDD_ReformViewSilfae.jpg

@Silfae Usually upon reforming, my dynasty ends up alone against a world of infidels. The quickest way to spread the faith when in those circumstances is through military action, hence the need for a Warmongering Nature. Picking the Astrology Doctrine unlocks the Zodiac traits for my characters, giving them various attribute boosts, while Haruspicy can help me influence the morale of my armies (for better or worse). Furthermore, since Astrology and Haruspicy are synergistic Doctrines, by combining them I gain access to additional perks that would have otherwise been out of reach for me... as well as ending up with an extremely superstitious religion.

ReformationDD-CJ.JPG

@Tuscany One of my favorite reformation combinations is mixing 'Bloodthirsty Gods’ and ‘Haruspicy'. Being able to sacrifice people to your gods and get rewarded for it is great fun, and when combined with Haruspicy (the art of reading an animal's entrails to predict the future) you can even cut apart your prisoners and see whether you will be lucky in future wars. Of course I pick ‘Temporal’ to allow me to rule over all of this as the conduit between god and man, and ‘Peaceful’ because non-violence is obviously the best strategy.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Again not really impressed. So now pagans exclusively get the option to intermarry with other faiths again? What again is the historical reason between preventing interfaith marriage fully 100% in ironman with achievement rules?
And what's the point behind it given pagans already can take spouses of other faiths by imprisoning and concubining and then marrying them?
 
Would fit to recreate the great christian schism with this new mechanic. Will this be part of the DLC or will you leave it to modders?
Great work nonetheless. If schism will be included, my purchase of this DLC is guaranteed
 
Remind me, are they all connected?

How small would it leave the empires you'd be taking the kingdoms from?

Lapland, Finland and Perm are connected even with the changes to the map. Estonia however is not connected anymore to the other finno-ugric kingdoms, since Ingria becomes part of Pskov which in turn is in de jure Novgorod/Rus.
Perm would be taken from Tartaria which would still include atleast Cumania, Volga Bulgaria and Mongolia even after the Pontic Steppe takes away the Khazaria region from it. Estonia would be taken from Wendish Empire ehich would remain pretty much unchanged from how it is now. Finland and Lapland would be taken from Scandinavia, which would leave it with Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Scandinavia would be hit the hardest, so maybe Lapland could be a required to have to be able to create the finno-ugric empire, kind of like how Egypt is required for e_abyssinia while still being part of e_arabia
 
Again not really impressed. So now pagans exclusively get the option to intermarry with other faiths again? What again is the historical reason between preventing interfaith marriage fully 100% in ironman with achievement rules?
And what's the point behind it given pagans already can take spouses of other faiths by imprisoning and concubining and then marrying them?

The point is that you are deciding on many aspects of your new faith, including the option to be so open to other belief systems that you don't care what religion your spouse is.

Though I agree that it's something many pagans should get by default, considering, for example how many pagan chieftains in Anglo-Saxon England married Christian women.
 
Would fit to recreate the great christian schism with this new mechanic. Will this be part of the DLC or will you leave it to modders?
Great work nonetheless. If schism will be included, my purchase of this DLC is guaranteed

The great schism doesn't work with this mechanics. Around 1054 all this doctrics were already devided by east and west since more than hundred years.
 
Simplified henotheism/monolatry:

Henotheism- there are multiple valid gods, but we choose to worship only one of them. Examples: Classical Greece (Athena as the state deity of Athens), Later Rome (Sol Invictus), Hindu sects
Monolatry- there are multiple gods, but only one is valid for worship. Examples: Early Judaism ("No other gods before me")

The key difference between these two is that henotheism views any of their gods as "valid" choices, and is more similar to a patronage system. Monolatry, meanwhile, insists that even though there are multiple gods, only one of them should be worshiped, and from this logic it can be seen how proper monotheism could be developed from it.

Henotheism is like a permanent kathenotheism, while monolatry is like monotheism with acceptance of the existence of other gods.

As to the answer to your question- I'd wager it'd end up with Odin taking the "god" side, Thor as a "savior" type, and some other important gods as "angels". This is assuming the reformation is a parrot of Christianity- if it were not, then it might go the Brahmanist method of "THEY'RE ALL ASPECTS OF ONE" or the Hellenistic method of "But the wise ruler is The One, the supreme above the others."

That's a bit of a fallacy...if anything Baldur would be the saviour Jesus for Norse Mythology...while not everyone likes Thor, EVERYONE loves Baldur...except Loki.

Furthermore Baldur comes back to life after Ragnarock where he sheppards the survivors to a better life. While Thor stays dead after Ragnarock.
 
That's a bit of a fallacy...if anything Baldur would be the saviour Jesus for Norse Mythology...while not everyone likes Thor, EVERYONE loves Baldur...except Loki.

Furthermore Baldur comes back to life after Ragnarock where he sheppards the survivors to a better life. While Thor stays dead after Ragnarock.

Isn't there some debate on how much of Baldur's "Christ-like" features (including his death and rebirth having to do with Ragnarok) were a result of syncretism with Christianity, possibly happening only after the old religion had faded?
Isn't it the unfortunate case that we know pretty little about what status and role Baldur originally had while Norse Paganism was still alive?

With Thor we at least know for sure that he was viewed as someone as a protector of mankind. Though I agree that I wouldn't just equate him with an Abrahamic "savior".

In a Norse Pagan run I role played that when the Vikings conquered and re-paganized the British islands they equated the Christian saints with the Gods, so that I could introduce Biblica Names into the royal line and had and could avoid renaming every single place that was named after a Saint.
In that I went with Odin =Yahweh, Baldur=Jesus Thor =Saint Michael, which I guess fits the depiction of them in Edda better; Odin being the ruler behind the scenes and "Allfather", Baldur the savior and Thor the defender who fights all the nasty reptile-shaped things.
 
The point is that you are deciding on many aspects of your new faith, including the option to be so open to other belief systems that you don't care what religion your spouse is.

Though I agree that it's something many pagans should get by default, considering, for example how many pagan chieftains in Anglo-Saxon England married Christian women.

I know the marriage part is not the point of this update, but I'd just prefer to pay to get the existing game developed rather than getting a new random thing on top.
And the logic behind a pagan chieftain allying with everyone, where a Byzantine Emperor suffers from the non-interfaith-marriage dogma I simply don't grasp.
 
Simplified henotheism/monolatry:

Henotheism- there are multiple valid gods, but we choose to worship only one of them. Examples: Classical Greece (Athena as the state deity of Athens), Later Rome (Sol Invictus), Hindu sects
Monolatry- there are multiple gods, but only one is valid for worship. Examples: Early Judaism ("No other gods before me")

The key difference between these two is that henotheism views any of their gods as "valid" choices, and is more similar to a patronage system. Monolatry, meanwhile, insists that even though there are multiple gods, only one of them should be worshiped, and from this logic it can be seen how proper monotheism could be developed from it.

Henotheism is like a permanent kathenotheism, while monolatry is like monotheism with acceptance of the existence of other gods.

As to the answer to your question- I'd wager it'd end up with Odin taking the "god" side, Thor as a "savior" type, and some other important gods as "angels". This is assuming the reformation is a parrot of Christianity- if it were not, then it might go the Brahmanist method of "THEY'RE ALL ASPECTS OF ONE" or the Hellenistic method of "But the wise ruler is The One, the supreme above the others."
Thanks for that on henotheism and monolatry. I knew they were distinct, but I was a bit fuzzy on the basic distinction.
 
I know the marriage part is not the point of this update, but I'd just prefer to pay to get the existing game developed rather than getting a new random thing on top.
And the logic behind a pagan chieftain allying with everyone, where a Byzantine Emperor suffers from the non-interfaith-marriage dogma I simply don't grasp.

If you ask me HF does a lot to develop the (rather unspectacular) Pagan Reformation, as well as the Catholic Crusades, it's not piling a random thing on top.

And I agree with your second part, inter-faith marriage should be less restricted than it currently is. Byzantine history isn't my primary interest, but if I'm not mistaken at least one of their Emperors married a daughter to a Islamic ruler during the CK2 period, so it should definitely be a possibility(as should the possibility to marry your Christian daughter to unreformed Pagans for a chance at converting the ruler and his nation)
But at least this is unlocking the possibility for a portion of the playable cultures, so I'm not gonna complain too much.
 
Can you add also Hellenism? at least put it as historically was , still present in Morea by the time of the game .

 
Can you add also Hellenism? at least put it as historically was , still present in Morea by the time of the game .


651 is outside the game's timeframe.

Laconia has been discussed before, and is considered to be less than a barony in size. As such the representation is too small to be the dominant religion of a province, and since they're smaller than a barony, there's no representative character to carry the religion either.

If you can show them to be of significant size, or to have had a functional, relevant noble of their faith, then please provide the evidence for this, with an indication of their size compared to the relevant province or provinces.

The map in the wiki article shows them to have been a tiny, tiny region of Laconia, and even their area wasn't necessarily dominated by the Hellenic faith, since (as in the article you linked to) there are signs of 4th century onward Christianity in the area.
 
Can you add also Hellenism? at least put it as historically was , still present in Morea by the time of the game .


Harran wasn't forced by anyone until Abbasid Caliph al-Ma'mun ibn Harun al-Rashid came through, at which point they identified with Sabians. Apart from Harran making no sense as a "Hellenic" place considering the main population was (and always had been) Assyrians, The Nabatean Agriculture was written by a scholar of the ancient Middle East, translated from Nabatean documents and dealing, unsurprisingly given the source and the author, with the esoteric religious practices of Mesopotamians alongside that of their agriculture in general.

At this point, the people of Harran identified with a vague "Sabian" umbrella, without actually changing anything about themselves. The only group to be consistently called Sabians are the Mandeans, and the applicability of Harran to this seems to imply that the term "Sabian" was applied generously to esoteric groups as a whole. Around ~1030, their temple would be destroyed, thus ending the pagan presence- although by that point in time it's generally believed that Christians might well have outnumbered the pagans anyway.

Harran, if implemented, would do better for a "Semitic" religion, also applied to preislamic Arabs in the history files and, depending on one's sources, possibly a region on the Yemeni-Arabian border, as well as potentially a few courtiers just floating around. A better case could be made for a "North African" religion, applied to Berbers and (hypothetically added) Beja, and which would be somewhat synonymous with ancient Egyptian religion as far as can be understood from accounts of Beja and Berber paganism.

The Hellenes of Laconia, the Maniotes, did not make up the majority of their province. The best way for them to be integrated would either be to add Castle Mania to the province and make its baron Hellenic, or to spawn a couple Hellenic courtiers in the regional court. In either case, I'd personally say that the Hellenes should be elderly and without children, so that only direct intervention can save the religion. This, on top of some Gemistus Pletho type event, could provide an alternative means, something other than Incitatus, to get the religion- not that it'd be especially flavorful or even really supported.
 
Again PDX please add the Living God trait to the rulers when combining ancestor worship with divine blood and temple holders. Something like the Egyptian pharaohs where they where scene as living gods because they where believed to be descendants of Osirus.

Imagine the idea that the members of the royal family are "descendants" of the gods...then combine it with the immortal trait...:eek: