CK2 Dev Diary #88 - A Faith In My Own Image

[Leivve]

I wish a faith could reform more than once so there would be more diversity. So like Tengri could become two reformed faiths.

Agreed though I don't think the game code would be able to handle that. My guess if someone were to make a mod, is make it if someone else somehow manages to fulfill the condition of reforming the faith, but as the old religion, they can reform again, but the two reformed faiths would be heresies of each other.

 

[classicist]

The argument is not to prove how many and how relevant the hellenic faith was back then , but that since it was historically noted as present , whatever the forms it assumed, or whatever the number of its worshippers, its still an historical fact that has more right to be included in the game than the other fantasy elements already present in it

This is getting really tedious, already... What I and others have tried to point out that it is not a 'historical fact' as such - not in the way you represent it. No source so far presented (whether De administrando imperio or Byzantine hagiographies), when subjected to an actual critical and scholarly interrogation, demonstrates that the 'Hellenes' of Mani had been an actual survival of 'Greco-Roman paganism' in the guise that it usually assumed. The connection has been mainly built by modern 'Hellenismos' revivalists.

 

[Prometheus_1]

This is getting really tedious, already... What I and others have tried to point out that it is not a 'historical fact' as such - not in the way you represent it. No source so far presented (whether De administrando imperio or Byzantine hagiographies), when subjected to an actual critical and scholarly interrogation, demonstrates that the 'Hellenes' of Mani had been an actual survival of 'Greco-Roman paganism' in the guise that it usually assumed. The connection has been mainly built by modern 'Hellenismos' revivalists.

Sorry this is just verbal mannerism , it is clearly stated that the maniotes followed old Gods, nothing else is needed, and , as I already explained to you and others, its not even relevant for a sandbox game since they are adding a new dlc that focus on pagan religion its very good , healthy and actually interesting to add hellenic religion as well as a possibility to be revived, it adds gameplay and its fun , not everything needs to be an historical 110% precise reconstrction so even a hint is more than enough for the reason to include it , also because you already have plenty of invented and fantasy stuff in the game that add variety and gameplay .

Anyway all that discussion I guess can be shifted here ...

 

[StarSword]

Oh my word, this is going to be the best DLC ever.

 

[Audoucet]

Sorry this is just verbal mannerism , it is clearly stated that the maniotes followed old Gods...

... Before becoming Christians, long before.

You don't need to prove that "some people used to worship the old gods", everyone knows that. Everybody followed the old gods at one point. What you need to prove is that they did in the eighth century. You didn't.

 

[_Perun_]

Why do you guys argue about a population of Hellenists? A rare, event-spawned Hellenic priest would do and it is safe to assume that some individuals existed and preserved the knowledge throughout the ages.
Then, if Devs would spend a tiny bit of resources to give the Hellenic religion one unique doctrine - voila, we have a long requested feature implemented in a conclusive fashion.
That would stop those discussions more efficiently than getting irritated on each other due to inability of achieving a satisfying consensus.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Orthodx is missing the Great Holy War because it makes no sense historically for them, not because of autocephaly.

They did support and assist several crusades though. The First Crusade gave quite a bit of land back to them, IIRC.

 

[Admiral_Obvious]

Agreed though I don't think the game code would be able to handle that. My guess if someone were to make a mod, is make it if someone else somehow manages to fulfill the condition of reforming the faith, but as the old religion, they can reform again, but the two reformed faiths would be heresies of each other.

I think the game could handle it. Reformed religions are, more or less different types of religions compared to "old" pagan religions.

I can see "after the fact" reformations be treated as a type of heresy in a vanilla game. Same as how the "old pagan" becomes a heresy of "reformed pagan".

Edit: While were at it, why not include the protestant reformation? Is it a problem if it's 500 years early?

 

[TheDarkMaster]

Why do you guys argue about a population of Hellenists? A rare, event-spawned Hellenic priest would do and it is safe to assume that some individuals existed and preserved the knowledge throughout the ages.
Then, if Devs would spend a tiny bit of resources to give the Hellenic religion one unique doctrine - voila, we have a long requested feature implemented in a conclusive fashion.
That would stop those discussions more efficiently than getting irritated on each other due to inability of achieving a satisfying consensus.

It really all comes down to whether or not the devs want to implement the feature or not, historical realism is irrelevant. You can look to the Aztecs and Jewish presence in the game for proof of that. In the first case, they added something that has no historical precedent whatsoever because it was fun and improves the game balance. In the second case, they dragged their feet for a long time in adding something that did have legitimate historical precedent to be in the game since they didn't want to take the time to add in Judaism at the time. The whole argument for whether or not it makes sense for them to exist historical on the map is irrelevant. It would be best to assume it will NOT get into the game until Paradox officially says they're adding it in and supporting it, for sanity sake. There simply is no point in arguing about it.

 

[Audoucet]

Why do you guys argue about a population of Hellenists? A rare, event-spawned Hellenic priest would do and it is safe to assume that some individuals existed and preserved the knowledge throughout the ages.

It's not safe no, it's extremely far-fetched. Religion survives through community, not through individual desires.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Why do you guys argue about a population of Hellenists? A rare, event-spawned Hellenic priest would do and it is safe to assume that some individuals existed and preserved the knowledge throughout the ages.
Then, if Devs would spend a tiny bit of resources to give the Hellenic religion one unique doctrine - voila, we have a long requested feature implemented in a conclusive fashion.
That would stop those discussions more efficiently than getting irritated on each other due to inability of achieving a satisfying consensus.

Once they've fixed the previously occurring crashes to desktop.
Once they've made a UI.
Once they've created feasts for it.
Once they've created events.
Once they've tested all of that and integrated it into the game.

It's far more than "make one unique doctrine".

The reason why a population of Hellenics is argued over is because that, so far, is the presented reason for adding them. And no, it isn't safe to assume someone somehow preserved (classical) Hellenism, especially in the absence of that population.
The population is too small to be represented on map. It's far less than the county, which is otherwise Orthodox.

And where would this Hellenic priest come from? Where have they been hiding?
The other event spawned characters at least have populations *somewhere* on map to trace them back to.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Once they've fixed the previously occurring crashes to desktop.
Once they've made a UI.
Once they've created feasts for it.
Once they've created events.
Once they've tested all of that and integrated it into the game.

It's far more than "make one unique doctrine".

The reason why a population of Hellenics is argued over is because that, so far, is the presented reason for adding them. And no, it isn't safe to assume someone somehow preserved (classical) Hellenism, especially in the absence of that population.
The population is too small to be represented on map. It's far less than the county, which is otherwise Orthodox.

And where would this Hellenic priest come from? Where have they been hiding?
The other event spawned characters at least have populations *somewhere* on map to trace them back to.

I don't want to really jump into this, but it sounds like a good "compromise" (being really generous) would be to give the province a Hellenic tribal barony. At best. Which under normal AI operations would be revoked instantly.

What about pre-Islamic Arabic Paganism? The Pagan religion should have mechanics too. Even if it's supposed to be really general, I believe it's only used on pre-Islamic Arab characters so it could be adapted. Plus, it's only been ~200 years since Islam appeard, it wouldn't be too crazy. /s

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I don't want to really jump into this, but it sounds like a good "compromise" (being really generous) would be to give the province a Hellenic tribal barony. At best. Which under normal AI operations would be revoked instantly.

What about pre-Islamic Arabic Paganism? The Pagan religion should have mechanics too. Even if it's supposed to be really general, I believe it's only used on pre-Islamic Arab characters so it could be adapted. Plus, it's only been ~200 years since Islam appeard, it wouldn't be too crazy. /s

Too small. It's less than 1/5 of the province, and would leave no expansion for "normal" building. It also doesn't exactly fit "tribal". It's described as a castle or city (depending on which translation you look at) in the responses up thread.

It'd need a full rework and rebuild of the religion anyway though, so the work would still be being done for very little visibility or use.


As for pre-islamic pagans... I think they're "generic" pagans rather than specific ones.

 

[BoomKidneyShot]

Too small. It's less than 1/5 of the province, and would leave no expansion for "normal" building. It also doesn't exactly fit "tribal". It's described as a castle or city (depending on which translation you look at) in the responses up thread.

It'd need a full rework and rebuild of the religion anyway though, so the work would still be being done for very little visibility or use.


As for pre-islamic pagans... I think they're "generic" pagans rather than specific ones.

Exactly why it's a bit silly to put it in.

Yeah, I just can't remember if the generic Pagan religion is used anywhere else.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Exactly why it's a bit silly to put it in.

Yeah, I just can't remember if the generic Pagan religion is used anywhere else.

Theoretically for any old Irish and Anglo-Saxon titles with history before the 400s(ish).

Maybe in Iberia as well, again assuming any titles have history back that far.

I think the generic pagan witches from one of the events have been corrected.

 

[LeSingeAffame]

Theoretically for any old Irish and Anglo-Saxon titles with history before the 400s(ish).

Maybe in Iberia as well, again assuming any titles have history back that far.

I think the generic pagan witches from one of the events have been corrected.

Also for pre-Islam arabic characters (like the parents of Muhammad I think)

 

[RedBaronFlyer]

Why do you guys argue about a population of Hellenists? A rare, event-spawned Hellenic priest would do and it is safe to assume that some individuals existed and preserved the knowledge throughout the ages.
Then, if Devs would spend a tiny bit of resources to give the Hellenic religion one unique doctrine - voila, we have a long requested feature implemented in a conclusive fashion.
That would stop those discussions more efficiently than getting irritated on each other due to inability of achieving a satisfying consensus.

If you read the prior post you would see that it's basically a handful of peasants in the middle of nowhere in a mountainous nearly inaccessible location who practiced a form of paganism that might somewhat possibly sort of be related to Hellenic Paganism. I don't know about you but I'm doubtful any of them could even read and it would have been heavily distorted oral tradition at that point.

I'm at the point that I would be happy if Paradox just removed the Are's own trait, removed the Hellenic Faith, and just replaced all the pre-Constantinian emperors' religions with the generic paganism.

If you want a better Hellenic experience, download a mod. The Ancient Religions mod has a nice expanded Hellenic revival system. If you're worried about achievements, then you're going to have to go five minutes without worshiping Jupiter/Zeus.

This debate has been going around in circles forever. Someone proposes expanding upon Hellenism. (I'll call him Kevin) People say no, Kevin screams "MANI PENISULA" over and over again. People point out that it was a tiny amount of the population, is in a remote barely accessible location, most likely an extremely morphed and mutated form of Hellenism that had been passed down via oral traditions and would have probably been barely recognizable to classical Hellenism besides some of the names. In addition, it was practiced by a TINY percentage of the rural population in the middle of nowhere (aka no nobles or courtiers, only uneducated peasants). Kevin then responds "So there WERE Hellenics all along! ADD HELLENISM!" and the cycle starts again.

At the earliest start point in the game, Zunism was more relevant than Hellenic Paganism. Hellenism was as good as dead, Zunism was the official religion of an entire kingdom. That's right, the religion we know almost nothing about and 99% of it is made up for CK2 is more relevant than the religion of ancient Rome and Greece, even at the earliest start date.

Every other type of paganism in the game deserves more attention than Hellenism. Manicheanism deserves more attention than Hellenism. Taoism deserves more attention than Hellenism. My dead Grampa sitting in his grave deserves more attention than Hellenism.

I'm going to go over every scenario I've heard suggested and shoot it down.

"Have a chance of a pagan physician!" Rural peasants make great physicians, of course.

"Pagan uprising!" Not going to dignify that one with a response.

"Pagan wanderer going into court!" I'm sure that would go well with the clergy. Even better if said wanderer went to the Byzantine Emperor because that guy is a zealous iconoclast last I checked.

"Pagan courtiers in the province that Mani is in!" Why would the local governor have some random rural peasants who practice paganism hanging around in his court? Never seen anyone provide evidence that there was any relevant "Hellenistic" courtier with this one.

 

[Prometheus_1]

It really all comes down to whether or not the devs want to implement the feature or not, historical realism is irrelevant. You can look to the Aztecs and Jewish presence in the game for proof of that. In the first case, they added something that has no historical precedent whatsoever because it was fun and improves the game balance. In the second case, they dragged their feet for a long time in adding something that did have legitimate historical precedent to be in the game since they didn't want to take the time to add in Judaism at the time. The whole argument for whether or not it makes sense for them to exist historical on the map is irrelevant. It would be best to assume it will NOT get into the game until Paradox officially says they're adding it in and supporting it, for sanity sake. There simply is no point in arguing about it.

And that is the point I am saying , the addition of hellenic religion as , even if rare, event , or remote worshipped faith in the last corner of greece , could and would add more spice to the game and add variety , its a good thing, but some people seem tho think that the game should be more flat just by opposing the idea and thus the arguing . The valid points in support of this faith is that it was still present at the time of the game as historically proved and its not a fantasy addition .
You can argue they were few, it was rare, it might be even different from original hellenic religion ,but yet it was present and it had worshippers , and for what we know there could even be many many more worshipping old Gods as for example in Italy its full of folklore stories of people and witches called pagans couse were worshipping the non canonic religion in middle ages, those people usually lived in countryside and remote areas rather than main cities. So adding hellenic religion , is just a good thing and harms no one .

 

[_Perun_]

It really all comes down to whether or not the devs want to implement the feature or not, historical realism is irrelevant. You can look to the Aztecs and Jewish presence in the game for proof of that. In the first case, they added something that has no historical precedent whatsoever because it was fun and improves the game balance. In the second case, they dragged their feet for a long time in adding something that did have legitimate historical precedent to be in the game since they didn't want to take the time to add in Judaism at the time. The whole argument for whether or not it makes sense for them to exist historical on the map is irrelevant. It would be best to assume it will NOT get into the game until Paradox officially says they're adding it in and supporting it, for sanity sake. There simply is no point in arguing about it.

Well, I agree with the historical realism part but not with whether there is point in discussion or not. Basically, the existence of a discussion alone is a proof that there is a point. There is no point, however, in discouraging other people to speak, "for sanity sake".

It's not safe no, it's extremely far-fetched. Religion survives through community, not through individual desires.

It is hardly about desires, it is about preservation of knowledge about rites. And Hellenic faith is pretty well documented. Whether you like it or not, paganism is alive and kicking even nowadays, only in small communities and mostly blended into some forms of New Age.

Once they've fixed the previously occurring crashes to desktop.
Once they've made a UI.
Once they've created feasts for it.
Once they've created events.
Once they've tested all of that and integrated it into the game.

It's far more than "make one unique doctrine".

The reason why a population of Hellenics is argued over is because that, so far, is the presented reason for adding them. And no, it isn't safe to assume someone somehow preserved (classical) Hellenism, especially in the absence of that population.
The population is too small to be represented on map. It's far less than the county, which is otherwise Orthodox.

And where would this Hellenic priest come from? Where have they been hiding?
The other event spawned characters at least have populations *somewhere* on map to trace them back to.

So, you have your own "wish list" and usurp objectivism that it is more important to implement it than some other peoples wishes?
Population is irrelevant mostly for the gameplay sake but also for realism. It takes one person to spread an idea throughout the world, if only enough dedication and effort is made.
Where do hermits hide? Deserts? Caves? Islands? Forests? Countrysides? Small and secret like-minded communities?

If you read the prior post you would see that it's basically a handful of peasants in the middle of nowhere in a mountainous nearly inaccessible location who practiced a form of paganism that might somewhat possibly sort of be related to Hellenic Paganism. I don't know about you but I'm doubtful any of them could even read and it would have been heavily distorted oral tradition at that point.

I'm at the point that I would be happy if Paradox just removed the Are's own trait, removed the Hellenic Faith, and just replaced all the pre-Constantinian emperors' religions with the generic paganism.

If you want a better Hellenic experience, download a mod. The Ancient Religions mod has a nice expanded Hellenic revival system. If you're worried about achievements, then you're going to have to go five minutes without worshiping Jupiter/Zeus.

This debate has been going around in circles forever. Someone proposes expanding upon Hellenism. (I'll call him Kevin) People say no, Kevin screams "MANI PENISULA" over and over again. People point out that it was a tiny amount of the population, is in a remote barely accessible location, most likely an extremely morphed and mutated form of Hellenism that had been passed down via oral traditions and would have probably been barely recognizable to classical Hellenism besides some of the names. In addition, it was practiced by a TINY percentage of the rural population in the middle of nowhere (aka no nobles or courtiers, only uneducated peasants). Kevin then responds "So there WERE Hellenics all along! ADD HELLENISM!" and the cycle starts again.

At the earliest start point in the game, Zunism was more relevant than Hellenic Paganism. Hellenism was as good as dead, Zunism was the official religion of an entire kingdom. That's right, the religion we know almost nothing about and 99% of it is made up for CK2 is more relevant than the religion of ancient Rome and Greece, even at the earliest start date.

Every other type of paganism in the game deserves more attention than Hellenism. Manicheanism deserves more attention than Hellenism. Taoism deserves more attention than Hellenism. My dead Grampa sitting in his grave deserves more attention than Hellenism.

I'm going to go over every scenario I've heard suggested and shoot it down.

"Have a chance of a pagan physician!" Rural peasants make great physicians, of course.

"Pagan uprising!" Not going to dignify that one with a response.

"Pagan wanderer going into court!" I'm sure that would go well with the clergy. Even better if said wanderer went to the Byzantine Emperor because that guy is a zealous iconoclast last I checked.

"Pagan courtiers in the province that Mani is in!" Why would the local governor have some random rural peasants who practice paganism hanging around in his court? Never seen anyone provide evidence that there was any relevant "Hellenistic" courtier with this one.

Yeah, Ancient Religions mod is great and I am definitely looking forward to try it after it is going to be made compatible with Holy Fury.

The problem with this topic is that it is heavily biased. It is like some people agreed in their own company that an ancient religion, semi existing in the game, is a bad idea and so objectivity is being usurped. It is like the China all over again. Some people want it, some people get angry that the topic is being discussed. So, guess what, dont discuss it. Prometheus_1 comes with his idea, encounters no interest from neither side, the topic goes dead. You guys have only yourselves to blame. If you believe the topic shouldnt be discussed, dont discuss it first instead of trying to shut the mouths different-minded people.

 

[classicist]

It is hardly about desires, it is about preservation of knowledge about rites. And Hellenic faith is pretty well documented. Whether you like it or not, paganism is alive and kicking even nowadays, only in small communities and mostly blended into some forms of New Age.

'Paganism' nowadays is of a revivalist kind: they do, of course, claim a direct continuation from past religious systems, but of course they would do that. It does not mean that there has been some sort of secret small communities carrying a religious tradition in a continuous chain of transmission. This is a typical argument in all revivalist circles, but in almost all cases easy to disprove while impossible to prove. In the case of ancient Greco-Roman cults, such a transmission is particularly unlikely, since these cults were public, communal, and generally civic-minded. For the worship of the Olympian gods, one needed a sedentary, preferably urban community with sanctuaries and common myths. The popular religiosity related to it, on the other hand, had such tenuous theology associated with it, that there was in many ways nothing to transmit. Not surprisingly, worship of natural sites, nymphs, rivers, and a few local heroes was much more typical to Greco-Roman popular religiosity; the urban elites would hardly have recognised this as belonging to the same praxis.

Where do hermits hide? Deserts? Caves? Islands? Forests? Countrysides? Small and secret like-minded communities?

This is an anachronistic idea that ironically owes much to religious systems with a decidedly elitist frame - Pythagoreanism, Neoplatonism, etc. It makes no sense whatever that remnants of a Graeco-Roman belief system would have been preserved in hiding by a few hermits. It was not a revealed or transcendental tradition, to begin with. Sacrifices are done communally, publicly, and without an elaborate theology. Sitting in a cave among a few enlightened companions would have had no bearing on the 'Hellenic' religion of either the urban/civic or the demotic/popular sort.

The problem with this topic is that it is heavily biased. It is like some people agreed in their own company that an ancient religion, semi existing in the game, is a bad idea and so objectivity is being usurped. It is like the China all over again. Some people want it, some people get angry that the topic is being discussed. So, guess what, dont discuss it. Prometheus_1 comes with his idea, encounters no interest from neither side, the topic goes dead. You guys have only yourselves to blame. If you believe the topic shouldnt be discussed, dont discuss it first instead of trying to shut the mouths different-minded people.

I don't think there's any attempt at shutting people's mouths, really. But there may be a bit of frustration around in how difficult it is to try and make a repeatedly-made point stick. There's awfully lot of repeated assertions of 'historically proven' Maniot Hellenism being bandied about, when in fact it has not been historically proven.