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CK3 Dev Diary #100: A Royal Journey

Greetings!

Fate of Iberia was released just last week, and we hope you’re all enjoying shaping the peninsula according to your own ideas and ideals! Are you dominating it by force, or trying to reconcile the inhabitants’ differences? Have any of you encountered the elusive wandering monk yet?

Anyhow, we’re hard at work with the 1.6.1 update, where we’re tweaking some balance, fixing issues found by you in the community, and also adding in a few new goodies (more on that below). We’re also working on a fix for those of you who can’t start the game (the AVX issue), which will come out before the full 1.6.1 update. Remember to pop by the bug forums if you have a problem: it’s the best way to make sure we know about your game issues!

With Fate of Iberia in your hands, we’ve now concluded the Royal Edition, and we’re overjoyed to see so many of you playing and enjoying the game. Please, keep sending us great feedback, we appreciate it a lot - your thoughts are very valuable to us!

We are now setting our eyes on the future. We have many plans, both big and small - I cannot go into detail as it’s too early yet, but rest assured that we have many exciting things coming up! We’re taking a long, hard look at what we’ve done and achieved since the release of CK3; we’re evaluating, adjusting, and setting a course that we’re sure will be to your liking!

Now, to round this Dev Diary off, we’d like to tease some new content coming along with the 1.6.1 update:

For owners of Fate of Iberia, we’re adding a few religiously-flavored events about Sephardic Jews, Conversos, the direction of mosques, and so on - with interesting choices on how to handle various situations. Here’s one example (don’t want to spoil them all!)
mosque.png


Outside of Hispania, but still in the vicinity, we’re doing a small update to the Canary Islands, who will, among other things, receive their own pagan faith and some monolithic ambitions.
Guanche.png

canaries.png

megalith.png


We’re adjusting how feudalization works in the West African sphere, enabling rulers to transition out of the tribal government while retaining their native faiths without requiring them to reform those faiths. This is to better model methods of urbanization and centralization in West Africa, though they will also retain access to the old path too.
westafrica.png


That's it for this time, cheers for now!
Alex_Illustration.png
 
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NarcomancerPL said:
History is against you here mate. Pagans did have very specific place of cult, which you can call "Holy Sites" in game therminology. For example "Arcona" was well known slavic "holy site". Pagans weren't really pilgriming to these sites (at least not ones I know of), but it would may maybe make sense for reformed faiths
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Here - you said it yourself - no piligrimages, so from gameplay point of view - reformation through holy site control - is just power projection - and pretty lazy one (as comment I reply to pointed out - reformed faith differs only by icon). So isn't it would have more sense when reformation for example had more meaning? For example, reformation is possible for rulers who built defined number of temples (in ck2 I remember that tribals could build temples - I don't remember if it was possible for pagans). It can be balanced through cost of those temples (not only in gold but in devotion too) or closed behind research or it can be both. Therefore, some dedicated ruler create center of future religion, around which reformation can proceed.
 
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arlekiness said:
Here - you said it yourself - no piligrimages, so from gameplay point of view - reformation through holy site control - is just power projection - and pretty lazy one (as comment I reply to pointed out - reformed faith differs only by icon). So isn't it would have more sense when reformation for example had more meaning? For example, reformation is possible for rulers who built defined number of temples (in ck2 I remember that tribals could build temples - I don't remember if it was possible for pagans). It can be balanced through cost of those temples (not only in gold but in devotion too) or closed behind research or it can be both. Therefore, some dedicated ruler create center of future religion, around which reformation can proceed.
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Yes, I agree. Reforming through holy site control is unrealistic, but that doesn't mean pagans should not have holy sites as, as I pointed earlier, they did have them. If we want to be correct Slavic paganism should be split between baltic, western and eastern (maybe southern as well, but I don't have as much sources) as they worshipped different gods or under different names and some of rituals also differed. Slavic faith in CK 3 is mostly based on a rus/eastern variant. Baltic slavs, for example, had something closer to dualism compared to more traditional pantheon worshipped by eastern slavs

P.S.: Yes, pagans could build temples in CK 2 :)
 
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NarcomancerPL said:
Yes, I agree. Reforming through holy site control is unrealistic, but that doesn't mean pagans should not have holy sites as, as I pointed earlier, they did have them. If we want to be correct Slavic paganism should be split between baltic, western and eastern (maybe southern as well, but I don't have as much sources) as they worshipped different gods or under different names and some of rituals also differed. Slavic faith in CK 3 is mostly based on a rus/eastern variant. Baltic slavs, for example, had something closer to dualism compared to more traditional pantheon worshipped by eastern slavs

P.S.: Yes, pagans could build temples in CK 2 :)
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That's I totally agree.
 
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The struggles in Iberia is a very fun and promising new mechanic, any chance for additional struggles to be added later? The British Isles comes to mind between the Norse invaders and the Anglos, and if you have plans on a later bookmark, the struggle for Jerusalem is also (imo) a good oppourtunity to add one.
 
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Hermerico said:
I didn't even use the website, i just googled Guanche phenotype and it was the first image which popped out.
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Ah, I see. That explains it. Might I respectfully make a couple of requests/suggestions?

1. Not to just google something and take the first image result as a correct and truthful answer without any verification.
2. Not to make claims like the image being "a reconstruction of how they would look in the middle-ages" without having any idea if it's even a truthful representation to begin with.

I hope you don't find these requests arrogant or imposing/unreasonable. :)




Hermerico said:
Anyway every single source or content i have seen on the matter seems to be consensual that were (and are) light skinned and often have fair traits just like the rest of the Berbers in the Atlas with whom they share most of their ancestry, or even with the people of the Spanish State, to which they belong.
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That may very well be. Now, if you had really just said that then I don't think anyone would be objected. But posting a specific image (which is probably fake) and claiming that it is a reconstruction goes a bit further than "light skinned and often have fair traits." ;)

That description is very vague, by the way. It fits as diverse peoples as Norwegians, Germans, Italians, Turks, Iranians, Berbers... It is not, in itself, really a guide to much. Their Berber ancestry is more informative in that aspect IMO.
 
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NarcomancerPL said:
History is against you here mate. Pagans did have very specific place of cult, which you can call "Holy Sites" in game therminology. For example "Arcona" was well known slavic "holy site". Pagans weren't really pilgriming to these sites (at least not ones I know of), but it would may maybe make sense for reformed faiths
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Correct me if I'm wrong, Ancona was just a big deal religious wise because the Slavic priests had the authority of the place politically and had the local lord do their bidding.
 
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Karlington said:
I hope you don't find these requests arrogant or imposing/unreasonable
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Don't worry about that.

Karlington said:
That may very well be. Now, if you had really just said that then I don't think anyone would be objected. But posting a specific image (which is probably fake) and claiming that it is a reconstruction goes a bit further than "light skinned and often have fair traits."
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But it is a reconstruction, whether it is accurate or not is another matter. But it seems perfectly reasonable considering it isn't much different from the surrounding areas, and every other source or depiction of these people corroborates it.

Karlington said:
That description is very vague, by the way. It fits as diverse peoples as Norwegians, Germans, Italians, Turks, Iranians, Berbers... It is not, in itself, really a guide to much. Their Berber ancestry is more informative in that aspect IMO.
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Yes, it is vague, yes it fits all of those, yes it SHOULD pass as any of those.
But from the screenshot, it passes as none.
 
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Greybeard0815 said:
I hope you guys will use the struggle system for a struggle between HRE and Pope, in a way that it simulates the Investiture controversy, establishing Guelphs and Ghibellines conflicts (Imperial or Papal loyalists). AI outcomes should tend towards history, with the Kaiser humbled and Papal supporters becoming independent.
Outcomes could be:
- vassalization of the Pope
- dismantling of the Papacy and optional switch to Ecumenical Patriarch for Head of Faith
- status quo ending with Concordat of Worms, making all Papal supporters in Italy become independent from HRE
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This is definitely something that could use the struggle mechanics - possibly with some means of influencing candidates for the papacy & HRE like in CK2?

You could also add struggles to other regions entirely - on its face the interfaith struggles in India seems like a direct comparison to Iberia. Other possibilities may include shuffling along imperial byzantine/caliphal politics with some of the mechanics, or representing the condition of trade along the Silk Road.
 
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Göstav said:
One important thing to point out is that around 1000AD, entire Finland had a population of around ~30 000 people, including the Sami. The population was mostly concentrated in the south and southwest.
At the same time, Estonia had a population of around 100 000 people, comparable to Norway at the same time period. That's the reason why Estonians were raiding so much and were a source of migration since the Bronze Age. Most people think that Finnics came from Finland and Finns were the dominant "culture head" but in reality, Estonians outnumbered the Finns massively for most of history and that's why Finnics migrated to Finland from Estonia as Northern-Estonia had such good farming conditions that it was constantly overpopulated.
Modern genetic research has also shown that practically all Finns have common ancestors with Estonians from about 1000 years ago which makes sense as that was the period when the 3rd expansion of Finnics happened from Estonia. It started around 400AD and ended in the 13th century with the Swedes, Danes and Germans invading and conquering Estonia after the Pope called for a crusade against them after centuries of endless raiding by the Estonians.

To summarise, nobody is saying that the Finns were Estonians, the Estonians/proto-Finnics and the people living on the coasts of Finland had their uniqueness but it would not be wrong to put Estonians and Finns in a common "Finnic" culture just like Norse is before the split. There are differences but there isn't a point to amplify it.
In the end, most Estonians (except south-eastern Estonians), southern- and south-western Finns were in a common Nordic cultural zone with Scandinavians already before the Viking age and the material culture is indistinguishable from eastern Scandinavian finds for many centuries. So the heritage part should probably be the same for Finnics and the Norse as they had very strong ties since the Bronze Age. Proto-Finnic itself formed in Estonia as a mix of Finno-Ugric newcomers who formed a new culture after assimilating the native proto-germanics living in modern-day Estonia and Northern-Latvia.
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30k population is not quite correct, at least not in our current understanding. Used to be that people thought that the whole of current Finland had 10k population around 800-1000 AD. I still sometimes hear this repeated, even by people who should know better.
30k is a low estimate. It is correct that Estonia had relatively more population, but also comparatively better and easier farmland for the techniques at the time. The population of Fennoscandia wasn't large but not minuscule either; 100-200k for the whole of Finnish-Sami-Karelian side of Fennoscandia is more accurate, but is still an educated guess. Note that the population was concentrated more to the southern coasts, lakes and major rivers meaning that population density was low outside these areas.
We do know the population rose steadily in line with the rest of Europe over the centuries, even if the population was not much; Constantinople had an estimated 500k population alone in 1000 AD.
There certainly was a lot of activity over the Gulf of Finland between Estonians and Finns/Karelians with commerce and people moving between them. The Gulf islands were a great help as a midway point and "pit-stop"(largest two being Suursaari and Tytärsaari). Archeology shows this activity and the local expression of identity from 400-600 AD forward and coincides with a population boom on both sides of the Gulf of Finland.
The population of Ancient Estonia in the late Iron Age, circa 1100 AD, is estimated to have been 150,000, with upper estimates around 180,000.[14] This is a five-fold increase from the approximately 30,000 inhabitants of the same area during the Roman Iron Age, circa 400 AD.[14] For comparison, the population of Norway between 1000AD and 1100AD is estimated to have been around 200,000 people.[15]

Biggest issue for the Finnish-Karelian side was lack of centralization(even if this was underway) and getting squeezed between the rising Swedish Kindom, Novgorod Republic and the Northern Crusader forces in addition to fighting amongst themselves(Tavastians and Karelians were local rivals not to mention the Ancient Estonian counties) basically sealed their fate as those forces could not realistically be overcome, not with largely decentralized and independent tribal polities.
The Estonians fared a bit better due to more concentrated and organized counties, but could not fight on due to the raw math arrayed against them, similar to the rest of the Baltics(they did not give up though).

Here's a few sciency articles about the subject, though I have to warn everyone that they are not an easy read.
Haplotype Sharing Provides Insights into Fine-Scale Population History and Disease in Finland - Deals with generational trends and estimates based on genetics.
A Bayesian Reconstruction of a Historical Population in Finland, 1647–1850 - Definitely out of our time frame but serves a a complement to the above for comparisons.

Sorry for being so off-topic but I feel compelled to clear misconseptions on this topic.
 
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That feudalization system should be the same for finno ugric cultures. The finno ugric faiths were usually very autonomous and each region had a different view or naming for a god. I dont see how reforming that religion would work if it would still stay autonomous
 
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