• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK3 Dev Diary #11 - Seduction, Torture and the Intrigue Perk Trees

Welcome and welcome back to all!

This week I’m here to tell you all more about Intrigue: it's not just an act, it's a Lifestyle.

As covered in a previous dev diary, each character Skill has a Lifestyle, and each Lifestyle has three associated Focuses and three Perk trees, which is what we'll be diving into today.

Keep in mind that all values listed below are subject to change!

For Intrigue, the three focuses are:

Intrigue Lifestyle Focuses.PNG

[Skulduggery Focus — Agent Acceptance: +10, Intrigue: +3]
[Temptation Focus — Fertility: +25%, Attraction Opinion: 10, Seduction Scheme Power: +20%]
[Intimidation Focus — Intrigue: +2, Dread Gain: +10%, Natural Dread: +20]


Each perk tree — Schemer, Seducer, and Torturer — concludes with the unlocking of its namesake trait. I know this might be an insurmountable challenge, but feel free to guess which is which:
intrigue lifestyle traits.png

(Ah, is there any greater torture than the desires of the heart...)

I'll also be running down the effects of every unlockable perk that leads to those, and I'm naturally going to start by talking about the Temptation focus, that eternal vice, and the Seducer tree, but first I want to describe its closely related Seduce Scheme.


The Seduce Scheme

Seduction is a little more complicated than it was in CK2, with factors such as the target's personal preferences playing a larger part. Indeed, Scheme Power is not merely affected by your Intrigue, but who you are, and who they are.

That also means that you have to be a little careful. If a target gets annoyed rather than enticed, and you suffer a Critical Failure, they may give you a hard rejection - preventing you from attempting to Seduce them again - or even publicly out you as the lecherous villain you are!

Seduction Rejection.PNG.png



The Seducer Tree

So how will the Seduce tree help you? A few Perks offer straightforward bonuses by increasing your Scheme Power or making you more attractive to those of an appropriate gender and sexuality.

enticing opportunity tt.PNG

[Enticing Opportunity — Seduction Scheme Power: +30%]

smooth operator tt.PNG

[Smooth Operator — Seduction Scheme Success Chance: +25%]

home advantage tt.PNG

[Home Advantage — Seduction Scheme Success Chance against own Courtiers and Guests: +50%]

Others may expand your pool of... available targets.

subtle desire tt.PNG

[Subtle Desire — Removes the Incestuous penalty from your Seduction Schemes]

Just to be clear, this affects the Scheme, not the relationship. If you're caught getting too close to family, you will still suffer consequences.

Similarly, if you find your own sexual preferences getting in the way of who you can Seduce efficiently, there are ways you can overcome that:

unshackled lust tt.PNG

[Unshackled Lust — Removes your attraction penalties in Seduction Schemes]
(There’s no way of overcoming your target’s sexual preferences, though. I’m sorry, but your liege is Just Not That Into You.)


There are perks to help a different kind of “effectiveness” in your Seduce Schemes:

like weeds in a garden tt.PNG

[Like Weeds in a Garden — Fertility: +30%]

And perks to mitigate the consequences of messing up:

graceful recovery tt.PNG

[Graceful Recovery — You can no longer Critically Fail Seduction Schemes]

Ah, the number of times I have desperately needed the Graceful Recovery perk...


Bringing a Lover to your court doesn’t come entirely risk-free, of course, so we also have a Perk to minimise the risk to you, at the unfortunate cost of maximising the risk for them:

Mortal adoration tt.PNG

[Mortal Adoration — Your Lovers are less likely to join Murder Schemes against you. Lovers are more likely to save you in case of attempted Murders.]

What can I say? Not every love story has a happy ending.


The final perk in the tree is the one that grants you the Seducer trait. It comes with increases to Intrigue, Fertility, and a hefty boost to Attraction Opinion for anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be of the relevant sexual orientation. Rulers of the world, lock up your wives! And husbands! And family members! Maybe also yourself for good measure!


Torture

Of course, Intrigue does not merely embody pleasure, but also pain. I'm happy to announce that the fan-favourite of "Torture" is going to be making a return for CK3.

What is it good for? Well, being Dreadful, for one thing, making your vassals fear you. Another benefit is the possibility that a victim will try to bribe you with Secrets to get you to stop. You're going to need those Secrets for leverage anyways, since the victim's family will hold you in utter disdain. Being an avid torturer also comes with a Piety penalty and a loss of Clergy opinion (unless your Faith happens to make exceptions for this kind of thing…).

torture interaction.jpg


The Torturer Tree

Now, we wouldn't let you take the pliers to flesh without giving you a way of getting really good at it, would we? The Torturer tree is all about making your vassals and peasants fear whatever might be going on in your dungeons! Or in your throne room. Or in your presence in general.

It has a series of Dread-increasing effects, as well as adding bonuses to various sources of dread.

dreadful tt.PNG

[Dreadful — Dread Gain: +30%]

divine retribution.PNG

[Divine Retribution — You do not lose Piety or Clergy Opinion from Torturing or Executing others]

prison-feudal complex tt.PNG

[Prison-Feudal Complex — Imprison Chance: +50%]

And of course there are ways of making sure you keep that hard-earned Dread for as long as possible:

forever infamous tt.PNG

[Forever Infamous — Dread Decay: -100%]

Of course, once you start "going off the rails" (as my fellow developers assure me my playstyle should be described as) you need to make sure that it doesn't go unnoticed. Keep the faint of heart in line, and all that.

malice implicit tt.PNG

[Malice Implicit — Dread Gain Per Tyranny: +0.5]

It’s not all about Dread, however. Intimate familiarity with human anatomy can help in other ways, too:

dark insights tt.PNG

[Dark Insights — When you Torture someone: 50% chance to gain either 1 Intrigue or 1 Prowess]

While it’s not a relief for Stress per se (unless you’re particularly sadistic), the Perk tree offers additional side benefits for your poor coping methods:

thriving in chaos tt.PNG

[Thriving in Chaos — Martial and Intrigue Per Stress Level: +1. Prowess Per Stress Level: +2]

Dread (and the actions that give it) is quite powerful on its own, offering alternative ways of controlling your vassals, but what if we could make it even better?

fear tax tt.PNG

[Fear Tax — Increased tax and levy contributions from Intimidated and Cowed vassals]

The last Perk in the tree grants the Torturer trait, which offers a slight Levy and Prowess boost, along with an additional improvement to your Dread gain. This will allow you to keep your Dread exceptionally high as you imprison, revoke, torture and execute to your heart’s content.


The Schemer Tree

Some of you out there are less bombastic in your methods, which brings us to our last tree for this diary. Skulduggery rules the shadows, keeping potential threats in line by more subtle tricks.


It provides a number of different bonuses to your Hostile Schemes, and to your Spymaster’s tasks:

swift execution tt.PNG

[Swift Execution — Murder Scheme Power: +30%]

a job done right.PNG

[A Job Done Right — Hostile Scheme Success Chance: +25]
(Hostile Schemes does not mean Schemes hostile against yourself, but rather Schemes that are categorised as Hostile instead of Personal.)

digging for dirt tt.PNG

[Digging for Dirt — Find Secrets Progress Speed: +25%]

Find Secrets is the Spymaster Council Task you might remember from a few diaries ago.

There are also a handful of defensive measures, should your enemies come looking for revenge:

court of shadows tt.PNG

[Court of Shadows — Disrupt Schemes Effectiveness: +50%]
Disrupt Schemes is another —very useful— Spymaster Task.

prepared for anything tt.PNG

[Prepared for Anything — Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance: -25. Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance against your Courtiers: -10.]

Once you've unlocked this collection of perks, it will be very hard to turn your own methods against you. You will only really have to worry about people who are your equal as a Schemer. But you should be worrying about those people anyways.

In the previous dev diary about Schemes, you already got a sneak preview of a Scheme to Fabricate Hooks, which becomes available in the Schemer tree, and it's not the only scheme to be unlocked this way:

Truth is relative tt.PNG

[Truth is Relative — Enables the Fabricate Hook Scheme. Find Secrets may also fabricate Hooks.]

kidnapper tt.PNG

[Kidnapper Enables the Abduction Scheme]

Abduction is a criminal scheme, and therefore secret. However, if you succeed, you’re automatically discovered. They're not going to wonder for long whose dungeon they're locked in. You have nothing to worry about, though. The victim will be entirely at your mercy, after all.


But with all these Schemes, and only a single hostile scheme slot, what is a poor little Power Behind the Throne to do? Why, get yourself a second Scheme slot, of course!

twice schemed tt.PNG

[Twice Schemed Max Hostile Schemes: +1]

Lastly, this Perk tree offers up the Schemer trait. Not only does it grant a major bonus to your Intrigue in general. It also significantly boosts your Scheme Power, speeding up the inevitable success of your ingenious plans.


And with that we conclude this week's dev diary. I hope you're already daydreaming about all the ways you can grasp for power, and how to hold on to it once you've got it.

Next week we’ll be diving into the perk trees for the Stewardship lifestyles, so adieu until then!
Just remember to watch your back.
 

Attachments

  • schemer tt.PNG
    schemer tt.PNG
    97,4 KB · Views: 827
  • seducer tt.PNG
    seducer tt.PNG
    98,8 KB · Views: 757
  • torturer tt.PNG
    torturer tt.PNG
    74,2 KB · Views: 676
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:
(There’s no way of overcoming your target’s sexual preferences, though. I’m sorry, but your liege is Just Not That Into You.)

IIRC with the secrets system the homosexual trait can be present on a character, but secret. So, is it worth hitting on your liege anyway, you know, maybe after a few beers, just in case? Or do you have to discover the secret before that will "work"?
 
What if my character is a seducer, but is not into incest? (don't judge).
You'll marry your sister-daughter and like it, young man! :p
The events you can get are a little more selective, too, since certain things wouldn't make sense. Climbing the balcony to their chambers, for example.
It's about showing that you care, and think about them as much as you did when you first got married.
But what if climbing the balcony to their chambers is precisely how you show you care, a nostalgic reenactment of how you first met your spouse? As you said above, need to show them you still care :p
 
That makes a wasted perk if you aren't into incest. I don't think it's good design to force the player to pick things that have absolutely no use. Things don't have to be perfectly balanced, but they should have some use.
And from an RP perspective some players may view perk picks as things the character is actually interested in. Rather than abstract options
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

IIRC with the secrets system the homosexual trait can be present on a character, but secret. So, is it worth hitting on your liege anyway, you know, maybe after a few beers, just in case? Or do you have to discover the secret before that will "work"?
The Secret comes from the actions you take, so it actually goes the other way around!

But what if climbing the balcony to their chambers is precisely how you show you care, a nostalgic reenactment of how you first met your spouse? As you said above, need to show them you still care :p
You know, this conversation is giving me ideas...
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)
Maybe having it overcome some of the societal difference modifiers as well, so that you can seduce easier above your rank? That is, at least if I and others are reading the DD right and that rank differences, etc. might factor into seduction chances. That way the perk's theme is overcoming cultural norms, including incest, but not exclusively incest.
You know, this conversation is giving me ideas...
Glad to contribute! :)
 
Welcome and welcome back to all!

This week I’m here to tell you all more about Intrigue: it's not just an act, it's a Lifestyle.

As covered in a previous dev diary, each character Skill has a Lifestyle, and each Lifestyle has three associated Focuses and three Perk trees, which is what we'll be diving into today.

Keep in mind that all values listed below are subject to change!

For Intrigue, the three focuses are:

View attachment 541749
[Skulduggery Focus — Agent Acceptance: +10, Intrigue: +3]
[Temptation Focus — Fertility: +25%, Attraction Opinion: 10, Seduction Scheme Power: +20%]
[Intimidation Focus — Intrigue: +2, Dread Gain: +10%, Natural Dread: +20]


Each perk tree — Schemer, Seducer, and Torturer — concludes with the unlocking of its namesake trait. I know this might be an insurmountable challenge, but feel free to guess which is which:
View attachment 541768
(Ah, is there any greater torture than the desires of the heart...)

I'll also be running down the effects of every unlockable perk that leads to those, and I'm naturally going to start by talking about the Temptation focus, that eternal vice, and the Seducer tree, but first I want to describe its closely related Seduce Scheme.


The Seduce Scheme

Seduction is a little more complicated than it was in CK2, with factors such as the target's personal preferences playing a larger part. Indeed, Scheme Power is not merely affected by your Intrigue, but who you are, and who they are.

That also means that you have to be a little careful. If a target gets annoyed rather than enticed, and you suffer a Critical Failure, they may give you a hard rejection - preventing you from attempting to Seduce them again - or even publicly out you as the lecherous villain you are!

View attachment 541758


The Seducer Tree

So how will the Seduce tree help you? A few Perks offer straightforward bonuses by increasing your Scheme Power or making you more attractive to those of an appropriate gender and sexuality.

View attachment 541744
[Enticing Opportunity — Seduction Scheme Power: +30%]

View attachment 541760
[Smooth Operator — Seduction Scheme Success Chance: +25%]

View attachment 541746
[Home Advantage — Seduction Scheme Success Chance against own Courtiers and Guests: +50%]

Others may expand your pool of... available targets.

View attachment 541759
[Subtle Desire — Removes the Incestuous penalty from your Seduction Schemes]

Just to be clear, this affects the Scheme, not the relationship. If you're caught getting too close to family, you will still suffer consequences.

Similarly, if you find your own sexual preferences getting in the way of who you can Seduce efficiently, there are ways you can overcome that:

View attachment 541766
[Unshackled Lust — Removes your attraction penalties in Seduction Schemes]
(There’s no way of overcoming your target’s sexual preferences, though. I’m sorry, but your liege is Just Not That Into You.)


There are perks to help a different kind of “effectiveness” in your Seduce Schemes:

View attachment 541751
[Like Weeds in a Garden — Fertility: +30%]

And perks to mitigate the consequences of messing up:

View attachment 541747
[Graceful Recovery — You can no longer Critically Fail Seduction Schemes]

Ah, the number of times I have desperately needed the Graceful Recovery perk...


Bringing a Lover to your court doesn’t come entirely risk-free, of course, so we also have a Perk to minimise the risk to you, at the unfortunate cost of maximising the risk for them:

View attachment 541752
[Mortal Adoration — Your Lovers are less likely to join Murder Schemes against you. Lovers are more likely to save you in case of attempted Murders.]

What can I say? Not every love story has a happy ending.


The final perk in the tree is the one that grants you the Seducer trait. It comes with increases to Intrigue, Fertility, and a hefty boost to Attraction Opinion for anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be of the relevant sexual orientation. Rulers of the world, lock up your wives! And husbands! And family members! Maybe also yourself for good measure!


Torture

Of course, Intrigue does not merely embody pleasure, but also pain. I'm happy to announce that the fan-favourite of "Torture" is going to be making a return for CK3.

What is it good for? Well, being Dreadful, for one thing, making your vassals fear you. Another benefit is the possibility that a victim will try to bribe you with Secrets to get you to stop. You're going to need those Secrets for leverage anyways, since the victim's family will hold you in utter disdain. Being an avid torturer also comes with a Piety penalty and a loss of Clergy opinion (unless your Faith happens to make exceptions for this kind of thing…).

View attachment 541762

The Torturer Tree

Now, we wouldn't let you take the pliers to flesh without giving you a way of getting really good at it, would we? The Torturer tree is all about making your vassals and peasants fear whatever might be going on in your dungeons! Or in your throne room. Or in your presence in general.

It has a series of Dread-increasing effects, as well as adding bonuses to various sources of dread.

View attachment 541742
[Dreadful — Dread Gain: +30%]

View attachment 541743
[Divine Retribution — You do not lose Piety or Clergy Opinion from Torturing or Executing others]

View attachment 541755
[Prison-Feudal Complex — Imprison Chance: +50%]

And of course there are ways of making sure you keep that hard-earned Dread for as long as possible:

View attachment 541748
[Forever Infamous — Dread Decay: -100%]

Of course, once you start "going off the rails" (as my fellow developers assure me my playstyle should be described as) you need to make sure that it doesn't go unnoticed. Keep the faint of heart in line, and all that.

View attachment 541753
[Malice Implicit — Dread Gain Per Tyranny: +0.5]

It’s not all about Dread, however. Intimate familiarity with human anatomy can help in other ways, too:

View attachment 541739
[Dark Insights — When you Torture someone: 50% chance to gain either 1 Intrigue or 1 Prowess]

While it’s not a relief for Stress per se (unless you’re particularly sadistic), the Perk tree offers additional side benefits for your poor coping methods:

View attachment 541763
[Thriving in Chaos — Martial and Intrigue Per Stress Level: +1. Prowess Per Stress Level: +2]

Dread (and the actions that give it) is quite powerful on its own, offering alternative ways of controlling your vassals, but what if we could make it even better?

View attachment 541745
[Fear Tax — Increased tax and levy contributions from Intimidated and Cowed vassals]

The last Perk in the tree grants the Torturer trait, which offers a slight Levy and Prowess boost, along with an additional improvement to your Dread gain. This will allow you to keep your Dread exceptionally high as you imprison, revoke, torture and execute to your heart’s content.


The Schemer Tree

Some of you out there are less bombastic in your methods, which brings us to our last tree for this diary. Skulduggery rules the shadows, keeping potential threats in line by more subtle tricks.


It provides a number of different bonuses to your Hostile Schemes, and to your Spymaster’s tasks:

View attachment 541761
[Swift Execution — Murder Scheme Power: +30%]

View attachment 541738
[A Job Done Right — Hostile Scheme Success Chance: +25]
(Hostile Schemes does not mean Schemes hostile against yourself, but rather Schemes that are categorised as Hostile instead of Personal.)

View attachment 541740
[Digging for Dirt — Find Secrets Progress Speed: +25%]

Find Secrets is the Spymaster Council Task you might remember from a few diaries ago.

There are also a handful of defensive measures, should your enemies come looking for revenge:

View attachment 541741
[Court of Shadows — Disrupt Schemes Effectiveness: +50%]
Disrupt Schemes is another —very useful— Spymaster Task.

View attachment 541754
[Prepared for Anything — Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance: -25. Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance against your Courtiers: -10.]

Once you've unlocked this collection of perks, it will be very hard to turn your own methods against you. You will only really have to worry about people who are your equal as a Schemer. But you should be worrying about those people anyways.

In the previous dev diary about Schemes, you already got a sneak preview of a Scheme to Fabricate Hooks, which becomes available in the Schemer tree, and it's not the only scheme to be unlocked this way:

View attachment 541765
[Truth is Relative — Enables the Fabricate Hook Scheme. Find Secrets may also fabricate Hooks.]

View attachment 541750
[Kidnapper Enables the Abduction Scheme]

Abduction is a criminal scheme, and therefore secret. However, if you succeed, you’re automatically discovered. They're not going to wonder for long whose dungeon they're locked in. You have nothing to worry about, though. The victim will be entirely at your mercy, after all.


But with all these Schemes, and only a single hostile scheme slot, what is a poor little Power Behind the Throne to do? Why, get yourself a second Scheme slot, of course!

View attachment 541764
[Twice Schemed Max Hostile Schemes: +1]

Lastly, this Perk tree offers up the Schemer trait. Not only does it grant a major bonus to your Intrigue in general. It also significantly boosts your Scheme Power, speeding up the inevitable success of your ingenious plans.


And with that we conclude this week's dev diary. I hope you're already daydreaming about all the ways you can grasp for power, and how to hold on to it once you've got it.

Next week we’ll be diving into the perk trees for the Stewardship lifestyles, so adieu until then!
Just remember to watch your back.

Wouldn't it be better if the Divine Retribution perk gave you a chance, based on your dread and their piety, to brand them as heretics and this in turn will make the clergy indifferent to their fate?
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

My personal opinion: If you view taking a perk as something the character is actively trying to learn and get better at, then it *is* a little bit weird to take a perk that improves incest with a character who isn't supposed to be into that.

If the perk would express a more general ability to overcome societal norms about what an "appropriate" relationship is, then it would feel less weird. Alternatively, it could be merged with the perk that lets you ignore the penalty from going against your own sexual preference, to represent a more general willingness to "break the rules". There are lots of things that could be done with the perk in order to make its bonus fit in somewhere without it feeling out of place for certain characters.
 
We have thought about this at times, although it's not here in these perk trees. But we do try to focus on how skills in other areas can be used cross-disciplinary, to put it that way. It's also important to us to make sure that the key skill is always the most important one for a thing, though. (For example, Diplomacy might be helpful in certain schemes, but it shouldn't be more useful for than Intrigue is.)
It make alot of sense, especially if it inside the area of attributes. Like martial may make you richer by being better at raiding and it could make it easier to keep vassals in line since they know you can defeat them in battle:)

I especially think one martial Lifestyle should focus on raiding and unlock ability to raid for anyone even if they otherwise could not do it, it something that fits right into the perk system and Lifestyles.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm sorry to say, but I don't like what I see at all. I know it sounds harsh, but there seems to be a devolution of game development happening at PDS where sources of complexity (and choice) are systematically thrown out to create linear, easy to develop experiences.

One of the great things about CK II character growth is that it usually happens through actions, either your own or through others acting upon you. Of course, it is very deterministic, but it creates a lot of opportunities for choices that directly and organically translate into emerging stories and character development. Those extra "RPG-elements" in turn are just linearly obtained boni that infringe upon those things that were great about character play in Crusader Kings.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

Why not just add "dead end" branches to the perk tree, and make incest one of them? That way, people who don't want it can simply bypass it and progress with the others.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

Maybe round it out to be "Forbidden Fruit" in general and have it also apply to say holy men/women?(Assuming they have a penalty already.)

Scratch notches on the bed to mark every vow of chastity you invalidated.
 
Very, very good stuff.

However, I wonder how many people can I torture at a time if I have my jail full of people? If not properly curbed, Dark Insights seems quite overpowered...

...and I also think the decision to torture someone should run the risk of wounding, maiming or killing him/her...
 
Last edited:
Will Seducers at least not keep nagging and nagging if the Seducee says "NO"? That was the big problem in CK2. The seducer would just keep on spamming and spamming until the seducee said "Yes".

One try and that's it. Okay? If the Seducer fails the first time, he/she shouldn't be able to simply try and try again until he/she inevitably succeeds...
 
No misunderstanding here


That makes a wasted perk if you aren't into incest. I don't think it's good design to force the player to pick things that have absolutely no use. Things don't have to be perfectly balanced, but they should have some use.
And from an RP perspective some players may view perk picks as things the character is actually interested in. Rather than abstract options

I mean, that is true, but it is also true of many other perks we have seen. It is a wasted perk if you have a divine marriage religion. The divine retribution perk is wasted if your religion is accepting of or approves of torture, so it is more a problem you have with the system overall than the specific perk.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

So long as the perk as a whole remains cohesive. I wouldn't really want to take "the incest plus tangential bonuses perk." If the perk were reworked to instead, say, mitigate all sorts of social barriers to seduction (like religious differences and family feuds), I'd be perfectly happy with it.
 
Will torture also have a chance of giving you fake informations in lieu of real secrets? That is after all a well demonstrated limitation of torture in the real world, that it provides unreliable information.