• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

CK3 Dev Diary #11 - Seduction, Torture and the Intrigue Perk Trees

Welcome and welcome back to all!

This week I’m here to tell you all more about Intrigue: it's not just an act, it's a Lifestyle.

As covered in a previous dev diary, each character Skill has a Lifestyle, and each Lifestyle has three associated Focuses and three Perk trees, which is what we'll be diving into today.

Keep in mind that all values listed below are subject to change!

For Intrigue, the three focuses are:

Intrigue Lifestyle Focuses.PNG

[Skulduggery Focus — Agent Acceptance: +10, Intrigue: +3]
[Temptation Focus — Fertility: +25%, Attraction Opinion: 10, Seduction Scheme Power: +20%]
[Intimidation Focus — Intrigue: +2, Dread Gain: +10%, Natural Dread: +20]


Each perk tree — Schemer, Seducer, and Torturer — concludes with the unlocking of its namesake trait. I know this might be an insurmountable challenge, but feel free to guess which is which:
intrigue lifestyle traits.png

(Ah, is there any greater torture than the desires of the heart...)

I'll also be running down the effects of every unlockable perk that leads to those, and I'm naturally going to start by talking about the Temptation focus, that eternal vice, and the Seducer tree, but first I want to describe its closely related Seduce Scheme.


The Seduce Scheme

Seduction is a little more complicated than it was in CK2, with factors such as the target's personal preferences playing a larger part. Indeed, Scheme Power is not merely affected by your Intrigue, but who you are, and who they are.

That also means that you have to be a little careful. If a target gets annoyed rather than enticed, and you suffer a Critical Failure, they may give you a hard rejection - preventing you from attempting to Seduce them again - or even publicly out you as the lecherous villain you are!

Seduction Rejection.PNG.png



The Seducer Tree

So how will the Seduce tree help you? A few Perks offer straightforward bonuses by increasing your Scheme Power or making you more attractive to those of an appropriate gender and sexuality.

enticing opportunity tt.PNG

[Enticing Opportunity — Seduction Scheme Power: +30%]

smooth operator tt.PNG

[Smooth Operator — Seduction Scheme Success Chance: +25%]

home advantage tt.PNG

[Home Advantage — Seduction Scheme Success Chance against own Courtiers and Guests: +50%]

Others may expand your pool of... available targets.

subtle desire tt.PNG

[Subtle Desire — Removes the Incestuous penalty from your Seduction Schemes]

Just to be clear, this affects the Scheme, not the relationship. If you're caught getting too close to family, you will still suffer consequences.

Similarly, if you find your own sexual preferences getting in the way of who you can Seduce efficiently, there are ways you can overcome that:

unshackled lust tt.PNG

[Unshackled Lust — Removes your attraction penalties in Seduction Schemes]
(There’s no way of overcoming your target’s sexual preferences, though. I’m sorry, but your liege is Just Not That Into You.)


There are perks to help a different kind of “effectiveness” in your Seduce Schemes:

like weeds in a garden tt.PNG

[Like Weeds in a Garden — Fertility: +30%]

And perks to mitigate the consequences of messing up:

graceful recovery tt.PNG

[Graceful Recovery — You can no longer Critically Fail Seduction Schemes]

Ah, the number of times I have desperately needed the Graceful Recovery perk...


Bringing a Lover to your court doesn’t come entirely risk-free, of course, so we also have a Perk to minimise the risk to you, at the unfortunate cost of maximising the risk for them:

Mortal adoration tt.PNG

[Mortal Adoration — Your Lovers are less likely to join Murder Schemes against you. Lovers are more likely to save you in case of attempted Murders.]

What can I say? Not every love story has a happy ending.


The final perk in the tree is the one that grants you the Seducer trait. It comes with increases to Intrigue, Fertility, and a hefty boost to Attraction Opinion for anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be of the relevant sexual orientation. Rulers of the world, lock up your wives! And husbands! And family members! Maybe also yourself for good measure!


Torture

Of course, Intrigue does not merely embody pleasure, but also pain. I'm happy to announce that the fan-favourite of "Torture" is going to be making a return for CK3.

What is it good for? Well, being Dreadful, for one thing, making your vassals fear you. Another benefit is the possibility that a victim will try to bribe you with Secrets to get you to stop. You're going to need those Secrets for leverage anyways, since the victim's family will hold you in utter disdain. Being an avid torturer also comes with a Piety penalty and a loss of Clergy opinion (unless your Faith happens to make exceptions for this kind of thing…).

torture interaction.jpg


The Torturer Tree

Now, we wouldn't let you take the pliers to flesh without giving you a way of getting really good at it, would we? The Torturer tree is all about making your vassals and peasants fear whatever might be going on in your dungeons! Or in your throne room. Or in your presence in general.

It has a series of Dread-increasing effects, as well as adding bonuses to various sources of dread.

dreadful tt.PNG

[Dreadful — Dread Gain: +30%]

divine retribution.PNG

[Divine Retribution — You do not lose Piety or Clergy Opinion from Torturing or Executing others]

prison-feudal complex tt.PNG

[Prison-Feudal Complex — Imprison Chance: +50%]

And of course there are ways of making sure you keep that hard-earned Dread for as long as possible:

forever infamous tt.PNG

[Forever Infamous — Dread Decay: -100%]

Of course, once you start "going off the rails" (as my fellow developers assure me my playstyle should be described as) you need to make sure that it doesn't go unnoticed. Keep the faint of heart in line, and all that.

malice implicit tt.PNG

[Malice Implicit — Dread Gain Per Tyranny: +0.5]

It’s not all about Dread, however. Intimate familiarity with human anatomy can help in other ways, too:

dark insights tt.PNG

[Dark Insights — When you Torture someone: 50% chance to gain either 1 Intrigue or 1 Prowess]

While it’s not a relief for Stress per se (unless you’re particularly sadistic), the Perk tree offers additional side benefits for your poor coping methods:

thriving in chaos tt.PNG

[Thriving in Chaos — Martial and Intrigue Per Stress Level: +1. Prowess Per Stress Level: +2]

Dread (and the actions that give it) is quite powerful on its own, offering alternative ways of controlling your vassals, but what if we could make it even better?

fear tax tt.PNG

[Fear Tax — Increased tax and levy contributions from Intimidated and Cowed vassals]

The last Perk in the tree grants the Torturer trait, which offers a slight Levy and Prowess boost, along with an additional improvement to your Dread gain. This will allow you to keep your Dread exceptionally high as you imprison, revoke, torture and execute to your heart’s content.


The Schemer Tree

Some of you out there are less bombastic in your methods, which brings us to our last tree for this diary. Skulduggery rules the shadows, keeping potential threats in line by more subtle tricks.


It provides a number of different bonuses to your Hostile Schemes, and to your Spymaster’s tasks:

swift execution tt.PNG

[Swift Execution — Murder Scheme Power: +30%]

a job done right.PNG

[A Job Done Right — Hostile Scheme Success Chance: +25]
(Hostile Schemes does not mean Schemes hostile against yourself, but rather Schemes that are categorised as Hostile instead of Personal.)

digging for dirt tt.PNG

[Digging for Dirt — Find Secrets Progress Speed: +25%]

Find Secrets is the Spymaster Council Task you might remember from a few diaries ago.

There are also a handful of defensive measures, should your enemies come looking for revenge:

court of shadows tt.PNG

[Court of Shadows — Disrupt Schemes Effectiveness: +50%]
Disrupt Schemes is another —very useful— Spymaster Task.

prepared for anything tt.PNG

[Prepared for Anything — Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance: -25. Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance against your Courtiers: -10.]

Once you've unlocked this collection of perks, it will be very hard to turn your own methods against you. You will only really have to worry about people who are your equal as a Schemer. But you should be worrying about those people anyways.

In the previous dev diary about Schemes, you already got a sneak preview of a Scheme to Fabricate Hooks, which becomes available in the Schemer tree, and it's not the only scheme to be unlocked this way:

Truth is relative tt.PNG

[Truth is Relative — Enables the Fabricate Hook Scheme. Find Secrets may also fabricate Hooks.]

kidnapper tt.PNG

[Kidnapper Enables the Abduction Scheme]

Abduction is a criminal scheme, and therefore secret. However, if you succeed, you’re automatically discovered. They're not going to wonder for long whose dungeon they're locked in. You have nothing to worry about, though. The victim will be entirely at your mercy, after all.


But with all these Schemes, and only a single hostile scheme slot, what is a poor little Power Behind the Throne to do? Why, get yourself a second Scheme slot, of course!

twice schemed tt.PNG

[Twice Schemed Max Hostile Schemes: +1]

Lastly, this Perk tree offers up the Schemer trait. Not only does it grant a major bonus to your Intrigue in general. It also significantly boosts your Scheme Power, speeding up the inevitable success of your ingenious plans.


And with that we conclude this week's dev diary. I hope you're already daydreaming about all the ways you can grasp for power, and how to hold on to it once you've got it.

Next week we’ll be diving into the perk trees for the Stewardship lifestyles, so adieu until then!
Just remember to watch your back.
 

Attachments

  • schemer tt.PNG
    schemer tt.PNG
    97,4 KB · Views: 827
  • seducer tt.PNG
    seducer tt.PNG
    98,8 KB · Views: 757
  • torturer tt.PNG
    torturer tt.PNG
    74,2 KB · Views: 676
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 3
Reactions:
Nice DD, ironic and detailed!

Two questions though:

1) completing a tree means completing all the branches, or just a linear one? And (slightly different question), when we have different "branches" converging on a perk, can we take the perk "below" even if we haven't taken all the other "side" perks?

2) in the torture screenshot, it is stated that torture will "cost 100" and then a shield icon. What does it stand for?
 
Very good diary, and some good info in the dev replies as well. The intrigue stat has always been nearly useless for rulers, but almost always valuable for vassals. With the addition of dread and the intimidation focus, lieges now always have a good use for their intrigue if there's no one above them.

I'm also glad to hear that seduction and intrigue targeting is getting work. The two main problems with those in CK2, and why I always turned them off, was that the AI was effectively indiscriminate in how it used them and there was no counter play against them. I have do a couple questions on them after reading this.

1) Will the AI consider its situation to determine if it should select the seduction focus? In an agnatic realm, a male ruler taking the seduction focus is often objectively making a 'wrong' choice. If they want to plot ingtrigue would be better and if they want to have kids family would be better. The only 'good' use of seduction would be if you needed more bastards or to in CK3 to seduce all their courtiers for extra plot defense, unless they happen to have gay/bisexual rulers in the same realm. On the other hand, a female ruler in an agnatic realm taking the seduction focus is outright overpowered in CK2. Even if they don't consider this, does a male seducer in a non-gay male ruler only realm only try to seduce their courtiers and women in the courts of places they're trying to scheme in? At the very least tell me that random counts won't screw with my eugenics programs for no reason.

2) What kind of counter play is there against seducers and schemers? A mechanic is only worth including in a game with several 'player entities' if it's both fun to use and fun to play against. So are there ways that we can actively try to fight back against other rulers using these focuses? There should never be situations where I'm automatically cowed, seduced, killed, or can't stop my courtiers from having that happen to them. Similarly, I shouldn't be able to automatically defeat all attempts to cow or seduce me just by saying 'no' to everything without consequence or cost. It should be fun from both sides, with a tug of war going on.
 
Will I be allowed to threaten torture?
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

While I like both Subtle Desire and Unshackled Lust as options, they do seem niche (and thus usually a wasted point) and a tacit agreement that your character is okay with it. So I wouldn't want to be forced to take both everytime I do that tree.

I think it would be better if you could choose between Subtle Desire and Unshackled Lust (so on two separate branches that immediately come back together). That way as you go down the tree your characters "morals" still loosen in regards to sex, but you get to choose how they loosen. And people who want to play characters that will have sex with anyone can take the time to grab both branches.

Could maybe even add a third branch in this branching section for seducing the clergy. Though I don't know how well this would work for all the religions.
 
Very interesting. Roughly how long does it take to fill up one perk tree? A lifetime? A decade? Less?
Just did the math. 30 experience per month for a goal of 1000 to take a perk means you'll get a perk once every 2.77 years. Multiply that by the grand total of 9 perks total equals a very precise 25 years to fill out an entire tree.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

I agree with the idea of rather merging the perks for seducing family members and other genders (and maybe horses and dogs, just throwing it in there, you know) into one with the idea of "embracing all opportunities". "Unshackled Lust" might still be a good title as well.
This would also free up one spot for something I would like to see. A perk that gives you a bonus for every Seduction completed (or expands on allready given bonuses). Like gaining Prestige when the rumours of your adventures start to fill the songs of bards. Something in that direction.
 
Just did the math. 30 experience per month for a goal of 1000 to take a perk means you'll get a perk once every 2.77 years. Multiply that by the grand total of 9 perks total equals a very precise 25 years to fill out an entire tree.
There are ways to increase the xp gain such as education traits.
 
Could maybe even add a third branch in this branching section for seducing the clergy. Though I don't know how well this would work for all the religions.
Based on what we've seen so far, there probably will need to be several perk substitutions based on your religion. If stuff like lust, cruelty, incest, or deception are considered virtuous by your religion, all the relevant religious perks are basically worthless. While if they're considered sins, the perks seem like they're sort of overpowered?

The flip side is if we make things that are generally virtues into sins, shouldn't there be perks that substitute in instead to fit with that? Say for example, a family perk that reduces the penalties for a religion that considers chastity sinful or a diplomatic one that helps with sinful honesty or sinful trusting.
 
One try and that's it. Okay? If the Seducer fails the first time, he/she shouldn't be able to simply try and try again until he/she inevitably succeeds...
No means no!

The most annoying instance of that in a game of mine was when I was a gay Basileus. That makes you a very likely target of other gay characters as their choices are pretty limited. So I'm defending against this massive Jihad from the Muslims and things are looking dicey. Yet I'm constantly targeted by seduction attempts, distracting me from the war. I might even have slept with him, but not at that time.

There could be some value in a "hard to get" mechanic where you may need to make several attempts, but more than 2 or 3 is probably too annoying when you're on the receiving end
 
Last edited:
No means no!

The most annoying instance of that in a game of mine was when I was a gay Basileus. That makes you a very likely target of other gay characters as their choices are pretty limited. So I'm defending against this massive Jihad from the Muslims and things are looking dicey. Yet I'm constantly targeted by seduction attempts, distracting me from the war. I might even have slept with him, but not at that time.

There could be some value in a "hard to get" mechanic where you may need to make several attempts, but more than 2 or 3 is probably too annoying when you're on the receiving end
I agree that you should have the option to end all attempts for x years, but there should also be a cost for refusing if you don't have traits like chaste or other incompatibilities. Just so that it isn't on obvious and easy choice to say no every time. Say a boost in stressed or the 'rejecting seduction attempts' status comes with some other penalty like prestige/stats.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

Maybe the perk could be about using sexual taboos for your own benefit in general. For example bonuses for having a relationship with a priest and/or with a partner of significantly different age. Now having all three at the same time with one specific person would spice things up even more! Not that I would know ;)
 
I agree that you should have the option to end all attempts for x years, but there should also be a cost for refusing if you don't have traits like chaste or other incompatibilities. Just so that it isn't on obvious and easy choice to say no every time. Say a boost in stressed or the 'rejecting seduction attempts' status comes with some other penalty like prestige/stats.

Why? Why should my Ruler get a penalty just for saying no to a seducer??
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)
It's a fairly severe issue from RP point of view, at least to me. I don't think that having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest.
Maybe some of the perks can have alternatives? Like instead of "Subtle desire" (the same goes for "Unshackled lust", btw) you would be able to choose an altogether different alternative perk?
 
2) What kind of counter play is there against seducers and schemers? A mechanic is only worth including in a game with several 'player entities' if it's both fun to use and fun to play against. So are there ways that we can actively try to fight back against other rulers using these focuses? There should never be situations where I'm automatically cowed, seduced, killed, or can't stop my courtiers from having that happen to them. Similarly, I shouldn't be able to automatically defeat all attempts to cow or seduce me just by saying 'no' to everything without consequence or cost. It should be fun from both sides, with a tug of war going on.
Against schemers you can make sure they can't recruit agents, but I'm not sure if there are any real counterplay to seducers but they don't seems particular dangerous to other characters, aleast not like schemers.

Best thing is probably to find a good spymaster or train one of your Children as one since the spymaster most likely can look for schemes and maybe secrets against seducers.
 
Why? Why should my Ruler get a penalty just for saying no to a seducer??
Because that's not fun for the seducer.

There should be an actual reason to want to accept or to have traits like caste that make it easier to resist. Otherwise it's like having the option to automatically invalidate an invader's war. Ever done a holy war where the target converted?
 
Because that's not fun for the seducer.

There should be an actual reason to want to accept or to have traits like caste that make it easier to resist. Otherwise it's like having the option to automatically invalidate an invader's war. Ever done a holy war where the target converted?
You could get stress for refusing, of course depending on your traits.