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CK3 Dev Diary #11 - Seduction, Torture and the Intrigue Perk Trees

Welcome and welcome back to all!

This week I’m here to tell you all more about Intrigue: it's not just an act, it's a Lifestyle.

As covered in a previous dev diary, each character Skill has a Lifestyle, and each Lifestyle has three associated Focuses and three Perk trees, which is what we'll be diving into today.

Keep in mind that all values listed below are subject to change!

For Intrigue, the three focuses are:

Intrigue Lifestyle Focuses.PNG

[Skulduggery Focus — Agent Acceptance: +10, Intrigue: +3]
[Temptation Focus — Fertility: +25%, Attraction Opinion: 10, Seduction Scheme Power: +20%]
[Intimidation Focus — Intrigue: +2, Dread Gain: +10%, Natural Dread: +20]


Each perk tree — Schemer, Seducer, and Torturer — concludes with the unlocking of its namesake trait. I know this might be an insurmountable challenge, but feel free to guess which is which:
intrigue lifestyle traits.png

(Ah, is there any greater torture than the desires of the heart...)

I'll also be running down the effects of every unlockable perk that leads to those, and I'm naturally going to start by talking about the Temptation focus, that eternal vice, and the Seducer tree, but first I want to describe its closely related Seduce Scheme.


The Seduce Scheme

Seduction is a little more complicated than it was in CK2, with factors such as the target's personal preferences playing a larger part. Indeed, Scheme Power is not merely affected by your Intrigue, but who you are, and who they are.

That also means that you have to be a little careful. If a target gets annoyed rather than enticed, and you suffer a Critical Failure, they may give you a hard rejection - preventing you from attempting to Seduce them again - or even publicly out you as the lecherous villain you are!

Seduction Rejection.PNG.png



The Seducer Tree

So how will the Seduce tree help you? A few Perks offer straightforward bonuses by increasing your Scheme Power or making you more attractive to those of an appropriate gender and sexuality.

enticing opportunity tt.PNG

[Enticing Opportunity — Seduction Scheme Power: +30%]

smooth operator tt.PNG

[Smooth Operator — Seduction Scheme Success Chance: +25%]

home advantage tt.PNG

[Home Advantage — Seduction Scheme Success Chance against own Courtiers and Guests: +50%]

Others may expand your pool of... available targets.

subtle desire tt.PNG

[Subtle Desire — Removes the Incestuous penalty from your Seduction Schemes]

Just to be clear, this affects the Scheme, not the relationship. If you're caught getting too close to family, you will still suffer consequences.

Similarly, if you find your own sexual preferences getting in the way of who you can Seduce efficiently, there are ways you can overcome that:

unshackled lust tt.PNG

[Unshackled Lust — Removes your attraction penalties in Seduction Schemes]
(There’s no way of overcoming your target’s sexual preferences, though. I’m sorry, but your liege is Just Not That Into You.)


There are perks to help a different kind of “effectiveness” in your Seduce Schemes:

like weeds in a garden tt.PNG

[Like Weeds in a Garden — Fertility: +30%]

And perks to mitigate the consequences of messing up:

graceful recovery tt.PNG

[Graceful Recovery — You can no longer Critically Fail Seduction Schemes]

Ah, the number of times I have desperately needed the Graceful Recovery perk...


Bringing a Lover to your court doesn’t come entirely risk-free, of course, so we also have a Perk to minimise the risk to you, at the unfortunate cost of maximising the risk for them:

Mortal adoration tt.PNG

[Mortal Adoration — Your Lovers are less likely to join Murder Schemes against you. Lovers are more likely to save you in case of attempted Murders.]

What can I say? Not every love story has a happy ending.


The final perk in the tree is the one that grants you the Seducer trait. It comes with increases to Intrigue, Fertility, and a hefty boost to Attraction Opinion for anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be of the relevant sexual orientation. Rulers of the world, lock up your wives! And husbands! And family members! Maybe also yourself for good measure!


Torture

Of course, Intrigue does not merely embody pleasure, but also pain. I'm happy to announce that the fan-favourite of "Torture" is going to be making a return for CK3.

What is it good for? Well, being Dreadful, for one thing, making your vassals fear you. Another benefit is the possibility that a victim will try to bribe you with Secrets to get you to stop. You're going to need those Secrets for leverage anyways, since the victim's family will hold you in utter disdain. Being an avid torturer also comes with a Piety penalty and a loss of Clergy opinion (unless your Faith happens to make exceptions for this kind of thing…).

torture interaction.jpg


The Torturer Tree

Now, we wouldn't let you take the pliers to flesh without giving you a way of getting really good at it, would we? The Torturer tree is all about making your vassals and peasants fear whatever might be going on in your dungeons! Or in your throne room. Or in your presence in general.

It has a series of Dread-increasing effects, as well as adding bonuses to various sources of dread.

dreadful tt.PNG

[Dreadful — Dread Gain: +30%]

divine retribution.PNG

[Divine Retribution — You do not lose Piety or Clergy Opinion from Torturing or Executing others]

prison-feudal complex tt.PNG

[Prison-Feudal Complex — Imprison Chance: +50%]

And of course there are ways of making sure you keep that hard-earned Dread for as long as possible:

forever infamous tt.PNG

[Forever Infamous — Dread Decay: -100%]

Of course, once you start "going off the rails" (as my fellow developers assure me my playstyle should be described as) you need to make sure that it doesn't go unnoticed. Keep the faint of heart in line, and all that.

malice implicit tt.PNG

[Malice Implicit — Dread Gain Per Tyranny: +0.5]

It’s not all about Dread, however. Intimate familiarity with human anatomy can help in other ways, too:

dark insights tt.PNG

[Dark Insights — When you Torture someone: 50% chance to gain either 1 Intrigue or 1 Prowess]

While it’s not a relief for Stress per se (unless you’re particularly sadistic), the Perk tree offers additional side benefits for your poor coping methods:

thriving in chaos tt.PNG

[Thriving in Chaos — Martial and Intrigue Per Stress Level: +1. Prowess Per Stress Level: +2]

Dread (and the actions that give it) is quite powerful on its own, offering alternative ways of controlling your vassals, but what if we could make it even better?

fear tax tt.PNG

[Fear Tax — Increased tax and levy contributions from Intimidated and Cowed vassals]

The last Perk in the tree grants the Torturer trait, which offers a slight Levy and Prowess boost, along with an additional improvement to your Dread gain. This will allow you to keep your Dread exceptionally high as you imprison, revoke, torture and execute to your heart’s content.


The Schemer Tree

Some of you out there are less bombastic in your methods, which brings us to our last tree for this diary. Skulduggery rules the shadows, keeping potential threats in line by more subtle tricks.


It provides a number of different bonuses to your Hostile Schemes, and to your Spymaster’s tasks:

swift execution tt.PNG

[Swift Execution — Murder Scheme Power: +30%]

a job done right.PNG

[A Job Done Right — Hostile Scheme Success Chance: +25]
(Hostile Schemes does not mean Schemes hostile against yourself, but rather Schemes that are categorised as Hostile instead of Personal.)

digging for dirt tt.PNG

[Digging for Dirt — Find Secrets Progress Speed: +25%]

Find Secrets is the Spymaster Council Task you might remember from a few diaries ago.

There are also a handful of defensive measures, should your enemies come looking for revenge:

court of shadows tt.PNG

[Court of Shadows — Disrupt Schemes Effectiveness: +50%]
Disrupt Schemes is another —very useful— Spymaster Task.

prepared for anything tt.PNG

[Prepared for Anything — Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance: -25. Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance against your Courtiers: -10.]

Once you've unlocked this collection of perks, it will be very hard to turn your own methods against you. You will only really have to worry about people who are your equal as a Schemer. But you should be worrying about those people anyways.

In the previous dev diary about Schemes, you already got a sneak preview of a Scheme to Fabricate Hooks, which becomes available in the Schemer tree, and it's not the only scheme to be unlocked this way:

Truth is relative tt.PNG

[Truth is Relative — Enables the Fabricate Hook Scheme. Find Secrets may also fabricate Hooks.]

kidnapper tt.PNG

[Kidnapper Enables the Abduction Scheme]

Abduction is a criminal scheme, and therefore secret. However, if you succeed, you’re automatically discovered. They're not going to wonder for long whose dungeon they're locked in. You have nothing to worry about, though. The victim will be entirely at your mercy, after all.


But with all these Schemes, and only a single hostile scheme slot, what is a poor little Power Behind the Throne to do? Why, get yourself a second Scheme slot, of course!

twice schemed tt.PNG

[Twice Schemed Max Hostile Schemes: +1]

Lastly, this Perk tree offers up the Schemer trait. Not only does it grant a major bonus to your Intrigue in general. It also significantly boosts your Scheme Power, speeding up the inevitable success of your ingenious plans.


And with that we conclude this week's dev diary. I hope you're already daydreaming about all the ways you can grasp for power, and how to hold on to it once you've got it.

Next week we’ll be diving into the perk trees for the Stewardship lifestyles, so adieu until then!
Just remember to watch your back.
 

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Is it possible to seduce your prisoner?
Let's say my Duchess character really wants to get in bed with that pretty genius commoner with the six-pack, too bad he's married, and there is no progress in her seduction attempts. How about she puts him in home arrest and visits him regularly until he's willing?
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)
How about partially substituting/complementing this effect with an opinion bonus from your family, which might presumably be useful even if you don't wish to seduce them?
 
Is it possible to seduce your prisoner?
Let's say my Duchess character really wants to get in bed with that pretty genius commoner with the six-pack, too bad he's married, and there is no progress in her seduction attempts. How about she puts him in home arrest and visits him regularly until he's willing?
I doubt they want to walk that path; I can think of few faster ways to get an "Adults Only" ratting than putting in a rape mechanic. That said, I'm equally certain it will be one of the first mods released.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)
Maybe make such RP perks seperate from the normal tree. So nobody is forced to waste points if one doesnt want the effect but just the perk aftwards (which i assume is locked behind the prior perks. And does seduction of your spouse work any different than seducing a random person (for example no critial fails can happen when you try to make your spouse love you/have more spares i mean children together).
 
Because that's not fun for the seducer.

There should be an actual reason to want to accept or to have traits like caste that make it easier to resist. Otherwise it's like having the option to automatically invalidate an invader's war. Ever done a holy war where the target converted?
That's not exactly the same thing. Punishing a seducee for saying no-whether AI, or player-sets up a situation where "Yes" is the only correct answer.

Maybe, if a Seducee is lustful, there should be a chance of stress, greater or lesser depending on other traits and attributes. But there should never be a 100 % chance, because 100 % chances on anything force the player to make a choice in one direction, even though the player might want to choose the other option.

100 % chances of punishment on anything only serve to piss the player off. And you can bet any 100 % chance of rewards will have a certain subset of players screaming for that to be nerfed right into the basement. So...let's have a little 50/50 balance please?
 
Seduction or murder, it do not matter, if the player is the target and the action do get a success, the player should face consequences. But the action can fail as well and the player can probably take actions to increase the chance of failure.

If the player starts to play with complete different rules from the ai, it would take away some of the role playing elements since the player character would be different from the ai characters.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

[Subtle Desire — Removes the Incestuous penalty from your Seduction Schemes]
[Unshackled Lust — Removes your attraction penalties in Seduction Schemes]

Yes, these 2 ruins the seduction tree for me. I don't want or need these abilities - And I like the seduction focus in CK2. Unchackled Lust completly bypass all Fertility boosts making one or the other useless. Subtle Desire can ofcourse be useful but misses for immersion. How can you justify a taget is suddenly crossing the religious barrier? I mean, either thay feel attraction or not, what suddenly changes their mind?

Solution - Make a fork. These 2 and a third, weak but more generally usefull, where one only is needed to continue down.
 
Seduction or murder, it do not matter, if the player is the target and the action do get a success, the player should face consequences. But the action can fail as well and the player can probably take actions to increase the chance of failure.

If the player starts to play with complete different rules from the ai, it would take away some of the role playing elements since the player character would be different from the ai characters.
that was one of the problem of assassination
if some check failed
then character only get a notice event with no option
choices should always matter
if certain character are assassinated
then the event should always allow for some choice
if the attempt are weak
then choice lead to different injury or unharmed
if the attempt are strong
then character still should have some option for desperate struggle for survival
 
What's the point of Divine Retribution if your religion allows torture?
Having a tree to fulfill (like perks in Stellaris) instead of a dynamic pool to choose from (like technologies in Stellaris) is a huge mistake in my opinion. Each character will feel the same...
 
What's the point of Divine Retribution if your religion allows torture?
Having a tree to fulfill (like perks in Stellaris) instead of a dynamic pool to choose from (like technologies in Stellaris) is a huge mistake in my opinion. Each character will feel the same...
A character wont be able to get every single perk since there are like 135 of them in total and there are more to the characters than just perks like personality traits which have a pretty big impact, education traits, dyanstic legacies, possibly Technologies and so on.
 
That's not exactly the same thing. Punishing a seducee for saying no-whether AI, or player-sets up a situation where "Yes" is the only correct answer.

Maybe, if a Seducee is lustful, there should be a chance of stress, greater or lesser depending on other traits and attributes. But there should never be a 100 % chance, because 100 % chances on anything force the player to make a choice in one direction, even though the player might want to choose the other option.

100 % chances of punishment on anything only serve to piss the player off. And you can bet any 100 % chance of rewards will have a certain subset of players screaming for that to be nerfed right into the basement. So...let's have a little 50/50 balance please?
Seduction or murder, it do not matter, if the player is the target and the action do get a success, the player should face consequences. But the action can fail as well and the player can probably take actions to increase the chance of failure.

If the player starts to play with complete different rules from the ai, it would take away some of the role playing elements since the player character would be different from the ai characters.
This is it. It doesn't have to be a flat yes/no response to have depth and interesting choices when seduction is going on, regardless of whether you're the one being seduced or the seducer.

What I mean you shouldn't be able to do without taking some penalty/consequence is blocking any and all seduction. On the other hand, a choice where you rebuff/resist without blocking further attempts entirely is acceptable. If someone is trying to seduce you and they win all the rng roles shouldn't still result in a failure, since you can just tell them no. There should be a consequence for saying no in that case that you weigh vs accepting. On the other hand, if they haven't won all the roles or you've spent something to take an active measure against the seduction, you would have an easier time getting them off your back or blocking seduction efforts. Something like the chaste trait makes resistance far easier and turns what might have been a positive choice to accept into a either a mixed or negative one instead.
 
A character wont be able to get every single perk since there are like 135 of them in total and there are more to the characters than just perks like personality traits which have a pretty big impact, education traits, dyanstic legacies, possibly Technologies and so on.

I meant, once you get a playstyle that fits you, you'll never gonna pick a different tree.
 
I don't think that is the Point of CK3 and I doubt the game will be that kind to you and give you a carbon copy of the same character over and over again.

From what we know, it seems your character is what you decide they are. Having to cope with different situations and opportunities drives you towards a better game experience than having fifteen rigid perk trees to choose from, with some quickly becoming your favorite ones, that will be fulfilled the same way no matter your character.
 
From what we know, it seems your character is what you decide they are. Having to cope with different situations and opportunities drives you towards a better game experience than having fifteen rigid perk trees to choose from, with some quickly becoming your favorite ones, that will be fulfilled the same way no matter your character.
I doubt you simply get to pick exactly which personality traits your character gets, you can maybe change them by going Heavy into stress but what know the cost for doing so. For perks yes you do get to pick which one, but a kind character will maybe not work well with torture for example or maybe intrigue in general but may make a superior diplomat. Since you most likely don't get to choice the personality traits, the game encourage/enforce some level of role playing upon the player Before perks even come online and if you get an adult character who already have picked some perks (which you can change but again cost stress) may add even more of that enforcement upon the player.

I thus suspect the chances are that players will use most or all perk trees from time to time and likely the personality traits and education will be a major factor here as well as the game situation.