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CK3 Dev Diary #11 - Seduction, Torture and the Intrigue Perk Trees

Welcome and welcome back to all!

This week I’m here to tell you all more about Intrigue: it's not just an act, it's a Lifestyle.

As covered in a previous dev diary, each character Skill has a Lifestyle, and each Lifestyle has three associated Focuses and three Perk trees, which is what we'll be diving into today.

Keep in mind that all values listed below are subject to change!

For Intrigue, the three focuses are:

Intrigue Lifestyle Focuses.PNG

[Skulduggery Focus — Agent Acceptance: +10, Intrigue: +3]
[Temptation Focus — Fertility: +25%, Attraction Opinion: 10, Seduction Scheme Power: +20%]
[Intimidation Focus — Intrigue: +2, Dread Gain: +10%, Natural Dread: +20]


Each perk tree — Schemer, Seducer, and Torturer — concludes with the unlocking of its namesake trait. I know this might be an insurmountable challenge, but feel free to guess which is which:
intrigue lifestyle traits.png

(Ah, is there any greater torture than the desires of the heart...)

I'll also be running down the effects of every unlockable perk that leads to those, and I'm naturally going to start by talking about the Temptation focus, that eternal vice, and the Seducer tree, but first I want to describe its closely related Seduce Scheme.


The Seduce Scheme

Seduction is a little more complicated than it was in CK2, with factors such as the target's personal preferences playing a larger part. Indeed, Scheme Power is not merely affected by your Intrigue, but who you are, and who they are.

That also means that you have to be a little careful. If a target gets annoyed rather than enticed, and you suffer a Critical Failure, they may give you a hard rejection - preventing you from attempting to Seduce them again - or even publicly out you as the lecherous villain you are!

Seduction Rejection.PNG.png



The Seducer Tree

So how will the Seduce tree help you? A few Perks offer straightforward bonuses by increasing your Scheme Power or making you more attractive to those of an appropriate gender and sexuality.

enticing opportunity tt.PNG

[Enticing Opportunity — Seduction Scheme Power: +30%]

smooth operator tt.PNG

[Smooth Operator — Seduction Scheme Success Chance: +25%]

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[Home Advantage — Seduction Scheme Success Chance against own Courtiers and Guests: +50%]

Others may expand your pool of... available targets.

subtle desire tt.PNG

[Subtle Desire — Removes the Incestuous penalty from your Seduction Schemes]

Just to be clear, this affects the Scheme, not the relationship. If you're caught getting too close to family, you will still suffer consequences.

Similarly, if you find your own sexual preferences getting in the way of who you can Seduce efficiently, there are ways you can overcome that:

unshackled lust tt.PNG

[Unshackled Lust — Removes your attraction penalties in Seduction Schemes]
(There’s no way of overcoming your target’s sexual preferences, though. I’m sorry, but your liege is Just Not That Into You.)


There are perks to help a different kind of “effectiveness” in your Seduce Schemes:

like weeds in a garden tt.PNG

[Like Weeds in a Garden — Fertility: +30%]

And perks to mitigate the consequences of messing up:

graceful recovery tt.PNG

[Graceful Recovery — You can no longer Critically Fail Seduction Schemes]

Ah, the number of times I have desperately needed the Graceful Recovery perk...


Bringing a Lover to your court doesn’t come entirely risk-free, of course, so we also have a Perk to minimise the risk to you, at the unfortunate cost of maximising the risk for them:

Mortal adoration tt.PNG

[Mortal Adoration — Your Lovers are less likely to join Murder Schemes against you. Lovers are more likely to save you in case of attempted Murders.]

What can I say? Not every love story has a happy ending.


The final perk in the tree is the one that grants you the Seducer trait. It comes with increases to Intrigue, Fertility, and a hefty boost to Attraction Opinion for anyone who finds themselves unfortunate enough to be of the relevant sexual orientation. Rulers of the world, lock up your wives! And husbands! And family members! Maybe also yourself for good measure!


Torture

Of course, Intrigue does not merely embody pleasure, but also pain. I'm happy to announce that the fan-favourite of "Torture" is going to be making a return for CK3.

What is it good for? Well, being Dreadful, for one thing, making your vassals fear you. Another benefit is the possibility that a victim will try to bribe you with Secrets to get you to stop. You're going to need those Secrets for leverage anyways, since the victim's family will hold you in utter disdain. Being an avid torturer also comes with a Piety penalty and a loss of Clergy opinion (unless your Faith happens to make exceptions for this kind of thing…).

torture interaction.jpg


The Torturer Tree

Now, we wouldn't let you take the pliers to flesh without giving you a way of getting really good at it, would we? The Torturer tree is all about making your vassals and peasants fear whatever might be going on in your dungeons! Or in your throne room. Or in your presence in general.

It has a series of Dread-increasing effects, as well as adding bonuses to various sources of dread.

dreadful tt.PNG

[Dreadful — Dread Gain: +30%]

divine retribution.PNG

[Divine Retribution — You do not lose Piety or Clergy Opinion from Torturing or Executing others]

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[Prison-Feudal Complex — Imprison Chance: +50%]

And of course there are ways of making sure you keep that hard-earned Dread for as long as possible:

forever infamous tt.PNG

[Forever Infamous — Dread Decay: -100%]

Of course, once you start "going off the rails" (as my fellow developers assure me my playstyle should be described as) you need to make sure that it doesn't go unnoticed. Keep the faint of heart in line, and all that.

malice implicit tt.PNG

[Malice Implicit — Dread Gain Per Tyranny: +0.5]

It’s not all about Dread, however. Intimate familiarity with human anatomy can help in other ways, too:

dark insights tt.PNG

[Dark Insights — When you Torture someone: 50% chance to gain either 1 Intrigue or 1 Prowess]

While it’s not a relief for Stress per se (unless you’re particularly sadistic), the Perk tree offers additional side benefits for your poor coping methods:

thriving in chaos tt.PNG

[Thriving in Chaos — Martial and Intrigue Per Stress Level: +1. Prowess Per Stress Level: +2]

Dread (and the actions that give it) is quite powerful on its own, offering alternative ways of controlling your vassals, but what if we could make it even better?

fear tax tt.PNG

[Fear Tax — Increased tax and levy contributions from Intimidated and Cowed vassals]

The last Perk in the tree grants the Torturer trait, which offers a slight Levy and Prowess boost, along with an additional improvement to your Dread gain. This will allow you to keep your Dread exceptionally high as you imprison, revoke, torture and execute to your heart’s content.


The Schemer Tree

Some of you out there are less bombastic in your methods, which brings us to our last tree for this diary. Skulduggery rules the shadows, keeping potential threats in line by more subtle tricks.


It provides a number of different bonuses to your Hostile Schemes, and to your Spymaster’s tasks:

swift execution tt.PNG

[Swift Execution — Murder Scheme Power: +30%]

a job done right.PNG

[A Job Done Right — Hostile Scheme Success Chance: +25]
(Hostile Schemes does not mean Schemes hostile against yourself, but rather Schemes that are categorised as Hostile instead of Personal.)

digging for dirt tt.PNG

[Digging for Dirt — Find Secrets Progress Speed: +25%]

Find Secrets is the Spymaster Council Task you might remember from a few diaries ago.

There are also a handful of defensive measures, should your enemies come looking for revenge:

court of shadows tt.PNG

[Court of Shadows — Disrupt Schemes Effectiveness: +50%]
Disrupt Schemes is another —very useful— Spymaster Task.

prepared for anything tt.PNG

[Prepared for Anything — Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance: -25. Enemy Hostile Scheme Success Chance against your Courtiers: -10.]

Once you've unlocked this collection of perks, it will be very hard to turn your own methods against you. You will only really have to worry about people who are your equal as a Schemer. But you should be worrying about those people anyways.

In the previous dev diary about Schemes, you already got a sneak preview of a Scheme to Fabricate Hooks, which becomes available in the Schemer tree, and it's not the only scheme to be unlocked this way:

Truth is relative tt.PNG

[Truth is Relative — Enables the Fabricate Hook Scheme. Find Secrets may also fabricate Hooks.]

kidnapper tt.PNG

[Kidnapper Enables the Abduction Scheme]

Abduction is a criminal scheme, and therefore secret. However, if you succeed, you’re automatically discovered. They're not going to wonder for long whose dungeon they're locked in. You have nothing to worry about, though. The victim will be entirely at your mercy, after all.


But with all these Schemes, and only a single hostile scheme slot, what is a poor little Power Behind the Throne to do? Why, get yourself a second Scheme slot, of course!

twice schemed tt.PNG

[Twice Schemed Max Hostile Schemes: +1]

Lastly, this Perk tree offers up the Schemer trait. Not only does it grant a major bonus to your Intrigue in general. It also significantly boosts your Scheme Power, speeding up the inevitable success of your ingenious plans.


And with that we conclude this week's dev diary. I hope you're already daydreaming about all the ways you can grasp for power, and how to hold on to it once you've got it.

Next week we’ll be diving into the perk trees for the Stewardship lifestyles, so adieu until then!
Just remember to watch your back.
 

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I meant, once you get a playstyle that fits you, you'll never gonna pick a different tree.
Except you won't always have a character that can play a certain way. We already know that 1) Personality traits are extremely difficult to change, 2) acting against your personality causes stress, and 3) high stress causes insanity and other negative effects.
So, no matter how much you like the Intrigue tree, playing your honorable, honest, chaste character as a plotting, torturing seducer will not end well.
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)

Can't you just merge the incestuous and gay perks into a "free from taboo"/"the things I do for power" perk, and then think of something else for the now free slot, maybe something about Stress or Piety loss?
 
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I thus suspect the chances are that players will use most or all perk trees from time to time and likely the personality traits and education will be a major factor here as well as the game situation.
I think all five focus groups will get used, but there might be some trees that players never go down. For example, one might use intimidation if they have a good intrigue character that either has crap diplomacy or bad personality traits for their go to majesty focus, but never make use of skulduggery as they just don't use plots.
 
I apologise to asking so many questions in one post but I was late to the party and also didn't want to spam multiple posts in quick succession.

Abduction is a criminal scheme, and therefore secret. However, if you succeed, you’re automatically discovered. They're not going to wonder for long whose dungeon they're locked in. You have nothing to worry about, though. The victim will be entirely at your mercy, after all.
If I abduct someone or just have them in my dungeon from an unrelated war (for example I imprisoned my neighbour in my lieges war) and I have a claim on some of their land would I be able to ransom them of to settle the claim and expand or is it still only gold?

Yes, you can mix and match perks from different trees, and even from different Lifestyles as you please. It is the entire Lifestyle (Intrigue, in this case) which gets a perk unlock, and then you can choose to spend it on any one of the three trees. So you can for example pick the first Torturer perk even though you've so far gone halfway down the Seducer tree. Hope that clarifies a little!
so if for example I pick the Skulduggery Focus and earn a load of experience to spend I could choose to spend it on perks from the Temptation Focus without actually changing focus?

Looks nice, though it's true that the incest perk may be well-suited to be some kind of side perk to the main line.

That said, I'm looking forward to be able to play a despised, scheming vassal, terrorize everyone until claiming the throne, and then spend my days torturing my new subjects openly instead of stalking them from the shadows :p.
Now there's someone who enjoys the finer things in life.
@alscon 7 @VoffvoffhundenI've really been looking forward to been able to do a proper Blackadder dynasty playthrough for a very long time
 
so if for example I pick the Skulduggery Focus and earn a load of experience to spend I could choose to spend it on perks from the Temptation Focus without actually changing focus?
The xp can be spent on all three paths in the intrigue Lifestyle, so you can pick skulduggery but advance in seduction if you want to.

However the xp inside one Lifestyle can't be spent to advance in Another Lifestyle, so intrigue xp wont allow you to get diplomatic perks.
 
I really really hope you guys have learned from the implementation of seduction and abduction in CK2 as to how to balance this so that there arn't irresistible AI seducers all over the world cuckolding every ruler and and intriguers locking their lieges away for their entire lifetimes.
 
I really really hope you guys have learned from the implementation of seduction and abduction in CK2 as to how to balance this so that there arn't irresistible AI seducers all over the world cuckolding every ruler and and intriguers locking their lieges away for their entire lifetimes.

They said a few weeks ago that you can seduce your spouse, so hopefully they wont look for love elsewhere
 
Fair criticism, on both counts! We've been looking at possibly adding something extra to it, since incestuous seductions are typically only useful in very specific situations. Do you RPers out there think having an additional effective would alleviate the sense that taking the perk expresses a character specifically being interested in incest? (I do a fair bit of RPing myself, but had never considered this much of an issue)
What if I could always trade an unwanted perk for something else that was always useful? Like a permanent boost of a stat or 50% progress towards the next perk.

Unrelated: I have only briefly tried out CK2 and never had any trouble finding affairs, wifes or making heirs. What exactly is the benefit of seductions in the first place. In game terms of course.
 
Hmmm. Would it make sense to include friends of the person who was tortured as being upset by it? I think I just noticed it mentioning close relatives and wife.
 
The last Perk in the tree grants the Torturer trait, which offers a slight Levy and Prowess boost
I presume, as a rationale, levy boost because of fear, and prowess boost because of developed knowledge of human anatomy, so I know where and how to strike better in personal combat thanks to torture experience?

Is there a way for torturers to extract confessions from people in their court caught plotting, so as to find the mastermind?
If there isn't, then there should be.
Furthermore, as Orwell and history teach us, after enough torture the prisoner may say whatever it takes for the torture to stop, so there should be a chance of the information (in this case, the mastermind's identity) being totally false, and just made up by the prisoner just to please the torturer and make him/her stop.

EDIT: this last one was replied on page 4, nevermind! But still it would be great, so don't forget about it, in the event of future development!
 
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Liking the focus on the focus trees. I'm looking forward to RP'ing as Glokta...

I feel that I have a pretty good understanding of what to expect from them now. When will we get a good look at the map (outside of Great Britain)?
 
there seems to be a devolution of game development happening at PDS where sources of complexity (and choice) are systematically thrown out to create linear, easy to develop experiences.
I disagree with this. Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but the Lifestyle system is neither very limited, and Crusader Kings 3 is certainly not an easy-to-develop game.

If not properly curbed, Dark Insights seems quite overpowered...
Let's hope we have it properly curbed :p

...and I also think the decision to torture someone should run the risk of wounding, maiming or killing him/her...
There are risks associated with torture, yes. ;)

Will Seducers at least not keep nagging and nagging if the Seducee says "NO"?
It has been a goal for us to make sure that a player doesn't constantly feel annoyed by AI seducers.

So, it is not possible to create a religion that does not not even tolerate love relationships between husband and wife (because sleeping with each other is only to make babies)?
It would be technically possible with modding. If I'm being honest, I don't think the thought has occurred to any of us that a player might want this. o_O

That is after all a well demonstrated limitation of torture in the real world, that it provides unreliable information.
As I've mentioned previously, creating unreliable Secrets presents a number of technical and design challenges that mean we've avoided them for now in favour of doing other things with Secrets. That said, we definitely don't want to present torture as a reliable way of getting information from someone, hence why it's a system based on randomness. You might end up learning secrets, but it is not a very reliable way of finding them.

1) completing a tree means completing all the branches, or just a linear one? And (slightly different question), when we have different "branches" converging on a perk, can we take the perk "below" even if we haven't taken all the other "side" perks?
Completing a tree means completing all the branches. You need every previous perk that connects to the next one to unlock it, if that makes sense.

Will the AI consider its situation to determine if it should select the seduction focus?
Generally, yes. The AI weights the different focuses against each other before choosing which one to follow.

What kind of counter play is there against seducers and schemers?
Your own Intrigue skill, your Spymaster's efforts, and a few other things that can affect the efficiency or discovery chances of a scheme targeting you or someone you care about.

Will I be allowed to threaten torture?
Not specifically, but we can talk more about this kind of thing once we've talked more about Dread.

So, is the "Unshackled Lust" trait the bisexuality that's been mentioned before, or is there still a dedicated bisexual orientation, like homosexual?
The perks do not affect a character's sexuality at all, so bisexuality is completely separate from any of this.

Will there be any gameplay differences between lovers your character truly cares for, one night stands, and catspaws?
There will be some difference, which we'll probably mention as part of a different DD in the future.

I meant, once you get a playstyle that fits you, you'll never gonna pick a different tree.
In my experience this doesn't happen, but we'll have to wait and see!

If I abduct someone or just have them in my dungeon from an unrelated war (for example I imprisoned my neighbour in my lieges war) and I have a claim on some of their land would I be able to ransom them of to settle the claim and expand or is it still only gold?
Depends on a few things. You cannot take land from a different realm this way, but you have more ransom options now, and if they're within your realm you could ransom them for a Hook, and then use the Hook to force them to accept that you're revoking their title.
 
I presume, as a rationale, levy boost because of fear, and prowess boost because of developed knowledge of human anatomy, so I know where and how to strike better in personal combat thanks to torture experience?

The prowess thing can also be explained by the fear factor. People at this rank of the torturer tree will probably have a reputation to be very dangerous. Furthermore, if they are good at torture, they know how to use fear to destabilize people, at least a little.
 
Great dev diary! I do have few comments, though.

First one, short and easy to get out of the way (and already mentioned in the thread): Dark Insights seems VERY strong, unless skillpoints are much less meaningful than in CK2.

Secondly I have not seen it clearly stated before, but it seems that stress is a 'progress' bar with multiple levels. I assume as you gain stress you fill up the bar and once it's full you get a higher stress level and start filling the bar towards another one. Cool, no complaint here, can't wait to see how it works out. I do however hope that there are traits that influence either stress gain rate or the bar 'capacity'. For instance a Nervous/Anxious character should just jump between different stress levels on amoments notice, because someone said something bad to them, or they've heard someone say something bad to someone else, basically for no apparent reason for an onlooker, while a Calm person should have more mental resilience.

I do not agree with your view on Abduction scheme, in particular the notion that schemer gets auto-revealed when they succeed. If done right noone in their (previous) court would ever know what even happened to that person, taht they were kidnapped, let alone who did it. And I would imagine that it would be fairly easy to insulate an abductee from the information on the dungeon owners ID. IMO the schemer should get auto-revealed only when the abducted prisoner gets released - and only if they're not blind(ed), or the secret gets spilled by someone. This would create an interesting option, and possibly a necessity for the player to live with the consequence of their actions (quite literally there, in their dungeon) or take the L and release them and suffer the consequences of letting the world know. Or, ya know, the abductee could be involved in a terrible accident or something. Perhaps the abductor could be given a choice to either keep the prisoner in the dark (again, quite literally) or some more humane treatment (something between the 'house arrest - dungeon - oubliette' choice from CK2. Is that still a thing in CK3? If so then the abduction victims should be put in the oubliette by default, with no knowledge whatsoever on what have actually just happened) where they perhaps reveal themselves, the prisoner can send letters (to their family, for instance. asking to ransom them). Auto-reveal on success seems... weird, unnecessary. Counterintuitive, if I'm being honest.

Finally the perk that gives 25% resistance to plots and 10% for your courtiers (I assume there may be other perks working that way). Do these stack? Are you considered your lieges courtier, in which case you would get 35% if you both have that perk? Even if so, I wouldnt expect this to stack multiple times, eg your vassal to be considered your lieges courtier as well so they get 45% if all 3 have that perk. Or does the 10% affect only unlanded courtiers?

The only thing, and it's pretty minor, ngl, I don't actually like about that DD (series of DDs...) as a whole is that it spoils all the trees which I would love to discover on my own in the game... :(
 
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It has been a goal for us to make sure that a player doesn't constantly feel annoyed by AI seducers.
I'm not necessarily as worried about being spammed by seducers, who I can decline, so much as I am worried about other AI characters being propositioned by AI seducers, who are perhaps less likely to keep their chastity.
It would be technically possible with modding. If I'm being honest, I don't think the thought has occurred to any of us that a player might want this. o_O
Plenty of religions held this view, disdaining sexual relations. In fact, if I recall right, it was the view of one of the more popular CK2 heresies: Catharism.
 
Investigating an unsolved murder case could be great fun. The target could be any dead person (or the hidden unknown killer instead?) who died under suspicious circumstances (so without known killer) within a certain time limit (1-10 years perhaps). More likely to succeed if the murder was not long ago and the victim was close to you (relative, friend, lover etc.) or the murder spot was in your court. Success could reveal the identity of the killer, critical success even could give a proof. Critical failure could lead to false accusation.
Please...
 
Investigating an unsolved murder case could be great fun. The target could be any dead person (or the hidden unknown killer instead?) who died under suspicious circumstances (so without known killer) within a certain time limit (1-10 years perhaps). More likely to succeed if the murder was not long ago and the victim was close to you (relative, friend, lover etc.) or the murder spot was in your court. Success could reveal the identity of the killer, critical success even could give a proof. Critical failure could lead to false accusation.
Please...
It won't help you to know if the killer was the Byzantine Emperor or something like that.
 
It won't help you to know if the killer was the Byzantine Emperor or something like that.

If it someone you love you know who to get revenge on, be it by plotting to kill him or allying with his enemies. If it was just some rando well you just got yourself blackmail material.