Dev Diary #91 - Altering the Alps and Idealizing Italy

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Throw in Roman Religion and they can call it the "Alright, FINE!" DLC.

Personally I’m of the opinion that a strong commitment to the ‘just hereditary, landed rulers of the same dynasty you started as playable’ rule is doing the game a disservice, even if they have the expanded functionality disabled by default. Simply by putting in the foundation for mods to exploit would enhance the game immensely in my opinion.

 

[Keizer Harm]

Personally I’m of the opinion that a strong commitment to the ‘just hereditary, landed rulers of the same dynasty you started as playable’ rule is doing the game a disservice, even if they have the expanded functionality disabled by default. Simply by putting in the foundation for mods to exploit would enhance the game immensely in my opinion.

I am personally of the opinion that asking for an exception to that rule is like asking for the Nintendo devs to make Mario not die when he falls in lava. Characters and dynasties are central to this game, and honestly, with 99% of the map already playable, I fail to see why everyone wants to be the Pope.

 

[TheCreator901]

I am personally of the opinion that asking for an exception to that rule is like asking for the Nintendo devs to make Mario not die when he falls in lava. Characters and dynasties are central to this game, and honestly, with 99% of the map already playable, I fail to see why everyone wants to be the Pope.

Who doesn't want to sleep with their sister and have a daughter wife who gives birth to a son that becomes the following pope who would sleep with his sister-wife to produce his daughter wife and produce the next pope. Rinse repeat.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

I am personally of the opinion that asking for an exception to that rule is like asking for the Nintendo devs to make Mario not die when he falls in lava. Characters and dynasties are central to this game, and honestly, with 99% of the map already playable, I fail to see why everyone wants to be the Pope.

It’s actually courtiers and mercenary leaders I’m most interested in. Not all dynasties had their base of power in the form of land and this could be intresting to play with even if paradox themselves don’t want to. Mario not dying from lava is dumb. The ability to selectively disable that functionality as a modder is not. Plus, with custom rule sets in there really aren’t many good arguments against making gameovers impossible and just about anyone playable. It’s not the recommended way to play, but that’s why it isn’t default behavior.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Who doesn't want to sleep with their sister and have a daughter wife who gives birth to a son that becomes the following pope who would sleep with his sister-wife to produce his daughter wife and produce the next pope. Rinse repeat.

The pope can’t marry, but personally I find that only more reason to elect a genetically identical Pope every succession for six consecutive centuries.

 

[Vityviktor]

With regards to Navarre, in the earliest dates you could potentially try giving the County of Aragon to Navarre, since it did fall into their influence shortly after creation, then the rest of the area (Duchy of Zaragoza and Barcelona) could be a separate Taifa around that time, and later the Kingdom of Aragon could spawn and replace those borders?

That's a possibility. It would make early De Jure Navarra bigger and more interesting.

If I recall correctly, Barcelona is a De Jure part of Aquitaine during the earliest start dates (769 and 867), representing the "Marca Hispánica" I suppose. The rest of De Jure Aragon could represent the Upper March of Al-Andalus, in which the Banu Qasi dinasty would eventually rule as an almost independent state.

Spoiler

The other option would be making the Duchy of Aragon a De Jure part of Navarra in 769 and 867 dates, with the possibility to create a Titular Kingdom of Aragon, just like Asturias/Leon can do with Castile. This way, the title would be somewhat disputed between the Christian Vasque kings of Navarra and the Muslim Qasids. It would be quite ahistorical, yes., but it's definitely hard to create or modificate De Jure kingdoms in places like these.

Although it would require more provinces being added to that area in order to justify it; a OPM Duchy of Aragon coexisting with a Duchy of Zaragoza could cause trouble...

Definitely, the whole Iberia would need new provinces.

Also, regarding Andalusia, it could even exist in 769 and 867 as a Titular super-kingdom which could simply disappear after it's fragmented, just like Great Moravia.

P.S.: Adding the Visigothic Kings as Emperors of Hispania (just like they added the Ostrogoths and the Vandals in Italy and Africa) would be awesome.

 

[PedroLuiz]

The pope can’t marry, but personally I find that only more reason to elect a genetically identical Pope every succession for six consecutive centuries.

it's so much incest that it would become contagious

 

[Dragatus]

For Carinthia, it felt weird giving even more land to a Kingdom that is meant to reflect the historical Stem-Duchy of Bavaria, when we have the Principality of Carantania, the March of Carinthia and later on the Duchy of Carinthia as inspiration that could take the same role. We have made sure, as this is quite the small Kingdom with a lot of land held by the same person in some bookmarked starts, that the AI won’t create the Kingdom right away, so it should be more of a player goal than an AI goal.

I realize I'm late to the party, but will there by chance be a corresponding new Carantanian or Carniolan culture?

 

[Almaron]

That's a possibility. It would make early De Jure Navarra bigger and more interesting.

If I recall correctly, Barcelona is a De Jure part of Aquitaine during the earliest start dates (769 and 867), representing the "Marca Hispánica" I suppose. The rest of De Jure Aragon could represent the Upper March of Al-Andalus, in which the Banu Qasi dinasty would eventually rule as an almost independent state.

Spoiler

The other option would be making the Duchy of Aragon a De Jure part of Navarra in 769 and 867 dates, with the possibility to create a Titular Kingdom of Aragon, just like Asturias/Leon can do with Castile. This way, the title would be somewhat disputed between the Christian Vasque kings of Navarra and the Muslim Qasids. It would be quite ahistorical, yes., but it's definitely hard to create or modificate De Jure kingdoms in places like these.



Definitely, the whole Iberia would need new provinces.

Also, regarding Andalusia, it could even exist in 769 and 867 as a Titular super-kingdom which could simply disappear after it's fragmented, just like Great Moravia.

P.S.: Adding the Visigothic Kings as Emperors of Hispania (just like they added the Ostrogoths and the Vandals in Italy and Africa) would be awesome.

Hmm...that's quite interesting, actually; I'd never realised that administrative division existed! Considering that the corresponding state for the Franks was the Marca Hispania, perhaps it could be a good idea to give Aragon a different name in the starting dates (perhaps Kingdom of Zaragoza for Muslims, and Kingdom of Hispania for the Franks, then an event can make the name flip to Aragon, in the same way that West and East Francia change over time), so that way both the region is split in half, and both sides can squabble over it...

So with that in mind, I guess the Kingdom list would look like this at the start; Kingdom of Galicia, Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Hispania (Aragon), Kingdom of Lusitania (Badajoz), Kingdom of Toledo, and Kingdom of Andalusia (it could be called Seville or Cordoba, but I think it better to be vague on the name here so it can be used by multiple states claiming to be Al-Andalus). Then as time goes on Leon can replace Asturias (or even co-exist; historically the two were separate Kingdoms for a short time), Castille and Portugal can come into being, Hispania can become Aragon, and the de_jure kingdoms can shrink as the Reconquista progresses...

 

[Almaron]

Say, while it's fresh in my mind...it's a completely different part of the world, but would it be worth reviewing the de jure setup that the Duchy of Powys has in the 769 start date? It's always felt a bit odd to me that this area alone has counties shifting to other duchies between start dates when that can't normally be done in game, and in all other cases it's the duchies that shift. Wouldn't it pay to keep Powys in the game for the full length, but change the title to something like "March" or "Shrewsbury", representing one of the powerful Marcher Lord families that held sway in this part of Wales? The eastern part may have been culturally English by that point, but the whole area was treated as a separate area of the country and even administered under the Council of Wales and the Marches in later centuries...could make things interesting!

 

[Yeorman]

Looks very good

 

[Woifee]

Hmm...that's quite interesting, actually; I'd never realised that administrative division existed! Considering that the corresponding state for the Franks was the Marca Hispania, perhaps it could be a good idea to give Aragon a different name in the starting dates (perhaps Kingdom of Zaragoza for Muslims, and Kingdom of Hispania for the Franks, then an event can make the name flip to Aragon, in the same way that West and East Francia change over time), so that way both the region is split in half, and both sides can squabble over it...

So with that in mind, I guess the Kingdom list would look like this at the start; Kingdom of Galicia, Kingdom of Asturias, Kingdom of Hispania (Aragon), Kingdom of Lusitania (Badajoz), Kingdom of Toledo, and Kingdom of Andalusia (it could be called Seville or Cordoba, but I think it better to be vague on the name here so it can be used by multiple states claiming to be Al-Andalus). Then as time goes on Leon can replace Asturias (or even co-exist; historically the two were separate Kingdoms for a short time), Castille and Portugal can come into being, Hispania can become Aragon, and the de_jure kingdoms can shrink as the Reconquista progresses...

There might be coming a change in regard of titular kingdoms in Iberia.

It wasn't actually a DD, but me sharing some thoughts I had at the time. To be more precise, I changed some titular titles (or occasional titular titles) to have a decision to form them, rather than having them float around at all starts. These changes will NOT go live with the upcoming bug fixing patch, but rather with the next expansion down the line, just so nobody gets their hope up.
List of changed titles:

• Socotra (The County has been moved into the Duchy of Socotra, no longer titular)
• Gotland (The County has been moved into the Duchy of Gotland, no longer titular)
• Amalfi (And gotten a Kingdom tier level)
• Castille
• Portugal
• Aragon
• Cyprus
• Powys
• Pisa
• Genoa

Other titles that end up titular, should still work the same way. It was more of a band-aid fix for titles that often stick out in a bad way, rather than a permanent change to the system.

(And I think I deleted that old thread, as I felt a lot of people misunderstood what I was trying to convey, and I didn't want more people to get the wrong ideas. Though I might be entirely wrong here, and it is still floating around )

They might not break up Andalusia, but it will be easier to break it up during the game. You just have to conquer it first

Edit: typo

 

[Prinsipe]

YAAAAAYY! Austria FINALLY looks like Austria! THANK YOU SO MUCH

 

[AndrejK]

Will there be a new Slovene culture for Kårnten, Carniola minus Istria and Graz?

 

[Timavus]

About playable theocracies, maybe just Rome - Papacy (kingdom level?) would be adaptable to the dinastic sistem, with a oligarchy similar to merchant republics, and families like Colonna, Orsini, Farnese...
But even like this, playing (beeing elected) as Pope himself would be extremly rare and difficult, if you consider that "Pope" can be choosed from every catholic dinasty or even as lowborn. At least something like that maybe can help to create other playable republics-oligarchies, as Firenze with families like de' Medici, Ciompi, Alberti...

Just suggestions, I'm sorry for my poor english.

 

[MedievalCuckoo]

Finally, I get a worthy goal of trying to patch together and produce an independent Carinthian kingdom, as opposed to 4 measly provinces of a petty kingdom. And with a proper Austria to the north too!

 

[thegr8whoopdini]

Since Pagans and provinces and de jure kingdoms and empires are getting some attention, could we get an empire for the Finnic and related peoples? It would be great if it was de jure in the earliest two starts, instead of Finland, Lapland, Perm, and Estonia being split up between Scandinavia and Russia. But even short of that, the option for a titular empire or decision-based founding of the same would be much appreciated.

 

[C4st1gator]

Interesting decisions on the province borders. The french county of burgundy (besancon) gets elevated to duchy, Switzerland may become a de jure title, Austria is beautified and Znojmo moves to its correct position.

Passau, however, is complicated. By that I mean, the corner, where the Inn flows into the Donau, there is the Altstadt of Passau. Unfortunately for the game the engine doesn't seem to support a county on two sides of a major river. Real Passau could not be tamed by the river, the Veste Oberhaus, the castle, is located north of the Donau and I guess that is where the castle on the ingame map is supposed to be. I don't know how precise Nudge is, so I guess this is as good as it gets?
The Location relative to Salzburg seems okay, and I don't think rivers.bmp allows for the Inn to flow through the land like it does in real life.
Solid job, seems like only engine constraints prevent it from being perfect.

Since I did try my hand at map modding without ever getting it to work, I know you guys are doing amazing workloads in great time.

I'm not sure about the new roman kingdom. This harkens back to my Italy playthrough, where I discovered that the Pope will stay mad at me, even If I let him have the barony of rome, when I move my court to roma (Tusculum, Tivoli, even Ostia, if I can build a castle) to accompany him. I had the choice between cutting a hole into the heart of my kingdom, or regularly repelling a raging bishop. I chose the latter. (Marrying into the ERE, trying to get an orthodox son...)

Finally, I'd like to voice my concerns with the cutting up of Kingdoms. I know that there is usually a balancing reason, but I like to preserve some large kingdoms. In fact, I usually drift the kingdoms to achieve this. (I appreciate large crown domains and feel compelled to speak the truth.)
Once all this work is done, the large kingdoms get their Independance and the real game begins. Crusades are no fun otherwise.

 

[Urzhail64]

I'm a bit iffy on the name myself - I kind of feel like Roma would be a better choice - but I disagree with the notion that it's not historical. Certainly, it didn't exist as a Kingdom, but there was an entity associated with that region and there are plenty of areas in the CKII world that didn't exist as Duchies or Kingdoms but which are included at that rank for gameplay/balancing purposes. I think it should start out as a fief held by the Pope, though, because that'll encourage them to expand across Italy as they historically did...

As for why...well, it makes more sense if you consider the history of the region. In 402, Ravenna replaced Rome as the capital of the Western Roman Empire, and it remained the capital of the successor states created by Odoacer and the Ostrogoths, and also the administrative capital during the Byzantine reconquest of Italy, with their Italian holdings being reorganised into the Exarchate of Italy/Ravenna, which steadily dwindled over time. When the last Exarch was killed, the Pope claimed the title, and King Pepin of Francia (and his son Charlemagne) confirmed this with the Donation of Pepin, which gave the Papacy authority over the area which later became the Papal States...and over time the Papacy did use this to push their claim to the area during their conflicts with the Holy Roman Emperors. All in all, this encourages the Pope to expand (while also stopping the Holy Roman Emperor from immediately waging a war to claim the area) and also allows a Byzantine player to go for the area and restore the Exarchate of Ravenna by controlling the two most important cities in Roman Italy...

Besides I've always enjoyed the history of the Malatesta dynasty of Rimini..now that's one *colorful* dynasty. I make it a point to play a Malatesta just to see how much of a PITA I can be to the Pope.

 

[Hazamattaz]

Forming the Archduchy of Austria will be a fun challenge as the von Hapsburgs. Especially with the new changes to their starting location in Upper Burgundy.