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Dev Diary #91 - Altering the Alps and Idealizing Italy

Hello there! I hope everyone’s summer is going well, and that you are as excited for this week’s Dev Diary as I am to write it!


As I mentioned last time, this week we are going to take a look at the area around the Alps, as well as take a look at Italy. For our first preview, we will take a look at the western Alps, around the Kingdom of Burgundy, southern Germany and northern Italy.


Keep in mind that not all the changes are finalized, so there might be more updates before everything goes live. All the pictures will be taken from 1066 and with De Jure map modes, so things might look somewhat different in other bookmarks.

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So the first change we will be talking about is the changes to the County of Burgundy. We have cut it up, and made it into its own Duchy (of Franche Comté). The old Duchy of Upper Burgundy has lost its headway into the Swiss heartlands as well, moving the county of Schwyz (old Grisons), Zurichgau (old Schwyz) and Thurgau (old St. Gallen) into the new Duchy of Upper Swabia. In the later starting date, they will be part of the Duchy of Switzerland instead of Upper Swabia, a change that can happen throughout a game as well.

The county of Vaud has been added to the game, to the old Duchy of Upper Burgundy, cut out of certain parts of Geneva and Neuchatel. The final noticeable change on this side of the Alps, is that we have added Aosta to the mountains between Savoy and Italy.

For that part of the Alps, we wanted to make smaller changes, cut up some of the larger provinces and fix a lot of the barony errors and some of the county errors (see Schwyz further up the text). It was important for us to try and fix a lot of these minor issues, as it felt weird seeing some areas so misplaced on the map.

On the other side of the Alps, we have cut up some of the larger provinces. Monferrato has been cut up to make room for Ivrea, Lombardy has been cut up to make room for Milano, Como and Leventina, and Genoa has been cut up to make room for Noli.

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We can start out in Italy, where we left off from the previous picture. Trent has been turned into its own minor Duchy, opening up Brenner Pass between Bozen and Innsbruck. Innsbruck and Tirol has moved a bit westwards, to make room for Pongau as part of the new Duchy of Salzburg. In Bavaria, we have added the county of Regensburg, as it was the capital of the Duchy for quite a while, and we wanted to see that reflected in the game. Passau has also been moved into the Duchy.

To the east, Austria has gotten quite the rework. We have added Traungau, Steyr Freistadt, Krems and Melk as Counties, moved Znojmo into Bohemia and Passau, as previously mentioned, into Bavaria, and Styria has been moved south into its own Duchy. The Duchy of Carinthia has been cut up into Carinthia and Carniola, and the Duchy of Friuli has been added around Aquileia.

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So for our last location, we have central Italy. I figure I will talk about the mountains first, as we have added parts of the Apennines throughout Italy. We’ve felt this has increased the tactical value of Italy somewhat, as the choices you make for movement and county conquering feels a bit more valuable, and we also felt it cut up the county more nicely, particularly considering the new Kingdom we added in central Italy (this will be discussed further down).

We have added Perugia into the Duchy of Spoleto, moving the whole Duchy a bit further north. Rimini has been added to the Duchy of Ancona, turned the two county Duchy into a three county one, to lessen the amount of chokepoints post-mountainfication.For the old county of Aprutium, we have turned it into the Duchy of Abruzzo and moved it into the Kingdom of Sicily. And we have taken parts of the old County of Firenze, and added the county of Arezzo, to make sure Firenze doesn’t stick its fingers into everyone else, as it has had a tendency to do.

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So for what I assume will be the most controversial change to the region, the two new Kingdoms added.

For Carinthia, it felt weird giving even more land to a Kingdom that is meant to reflect the historical Stem-Duchy of Bavaria, when we have the Principality of Carantania, the March of Carinthia and later on the Duchy of Carinthia as inspiration that could take the same role. We have made sure, as this is quite the small Kingdom with a lot of land held by the same person in some bookmarked starts, that the AI won’t create the Kingdom right away, so it should be more of a player goal than an AI goal.

And… For Romagna, we wanted to cut Italy into its more historical pieces, without adding a Kingdom called “the Papal States” that was only for an unplayable Theocracy. This was done for several reason: having the Pope try to seek out central Italy as he did throughout history, having the old East Roman areas be more difficult to hold onto for the Kingdom of Italy in the first bookmarks, and to lessen the massive size of the Kingdom of Italy.

So I hope the Dev Diary didn’t get too wordy this time around, and that people can learn to love the changes made to the region! Next time around, we will have a (probably smaller) Dev Diary about the changes made to Holy Orders in Holy Fury!

PS. For those of you with an interest in the Habsburg jaw and the Archduchy of Austria, we have something special for you as well! (A special decision to create the Archduchy.)

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Okay but the rest of Germany is still a mess, especially the north, especially Meissen and Brandenburg. Please do that next. It is truly horrible at the moment. And the Volga-Sarkel region needs a redraw too, the boders there are awful. In fact there are a lot of places that need to be changed to fit the increased province numbers in the places you already reworked.
 
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The kingdom of Romagna is a good decision, the one in Carinthia is NOT. It makes zero sense. It should be divided between Italy and Austria (aka Bavaria) or maybe even give part of it to Croatia or Venice. Also please take a look at Andalusia, that kingdom is too big in the early starts and the duchies are pretty bad all over Spain. I especially hate Cordoba's borders.
 
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Carinthia is bigger than Brittany or Wales, among other places so it isn't really too small to be considered a nascent kingdom.

De jure drift should overcome pretty quickly with effective control, and in the meantime it means Croatia/Bavaria/Italy/Venice can contest more easily without ever-present Kingdom-level de jure counterclaims?

I'm not against it if it makes the area more interesting. AI doesn't form kingdom = a moot point.
 
Which DD was this in? Also, great news. Greece was already one of the most powerful pre Persia/Italy/Meso split. Hope the fix is good.

EDIT: I missed the the point, so just ignore this post, please :)
 
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Have you played the game after JD was released? Just look at the map. Persia has been divided into Khorasan, Persia and Daylam as it should have been already before that...
And Mesopotamia aswell... there's Jazira and Iraq instead IIRC
He was saying that Greece is now one of the most powerful kingdoms after the various re-shapes in the Arabian and Persian empires. I remember the kingdom of Greece spanning all of Anatolia and current Greece. Somebody said that Greece was going to be split into Greece and Thrace, which I think is a bit silly. Then again, I think that splitting Italy up is annoying. I like the ability to get almost enough land to form the Italian Empire with 2 successful plots as Matilda Di Canossa.
 
Were there even enough counts in middle ages to fill all these counties in franche comte duchy? I think it would be weird to split one county to five, only to have them all held by same person all the time.

I see one county out of these fives is held by someone else and another is held by France(?). I would love to see some more info about this new duchy. You can't even really see names of those new counties.

1. It would make sense even if they are hold by the same person. French-Comte needs to be a own duchy it wasn't part of another one in this sense.

2. This are the Pagi bourguignons. You can read the province names if you know them very easily. The provinces are Portois, Amous, Varais and Escuens. Here is a map from the 9th century:

500px-Les_pagis_bourguignons_au_9esi%C3%A8cle.svg.png


3. There were some noble families in French-Comte during this era. The lords of Salins, the lords of Faucogney, the Lords of Traves, the lords of Rougemont (which are viscomtes the Besancon for the Archbishop), the lords of Glere, the lords of Neuchatel etc Also the Archbishop of Besancon ruled as Prince-Bishop so he should be landed too. Also the lords of Montfaucon

Also one of the counties is the important County of Montbeliard
 
Hello there! I hope everyone’s summer is going well, and that you are as excited for this week’s Dev Diary as I am to write it!


As I mentioned last time, this week we are going to take a look at the area around the Alps, as well as take a look at Italy. For our first preview, we will take a look at the western Alps, around the Kingdom of Burgundy, southern Germany and northern Italy.


Keep in mind that not all the changes are finalized, so there might be more updates before everything goes live. All the pictures will be taken from 1066 and with De Jure map modes, so things might look somewhat different in other bookmarks.

View attachment 388391

View attachment 388393

So the first change we will be talking about is the changes to the County of Burgundy. We have cut it up, and made it into its own Duchy (of Franche Comté). The old Duchy of Upper Burgundy has lost its headway into the Swiss heartlands as well, moving the county of Schwyz (old Grisons), Zurichgau (old Schwyz) and Thurgau (old St. Gallen) into the new Duchy of Upper Swabia. In the later starting date, they will be part of the Duchy of Switzerland instead of Upper Swabia, a change that can happen throughout a game as well.

The county of Vaud has been added to the game, to the old Duchy of Upper Burgundy, cut out of certain parts of Geneva and Neuchatel. The final noticeable change on this side of the Alps, is that we have added Aosta to the mountains between Savoy and Italy.

For that part of the Alps, we wanted to make smaller changes, cut up some of the larger provinces and fix a lot of the barony errors and some of the county errors (see Schwyz further up the text). It was important for us to try and fix a lot of these minor issues, as it felt weird seeing some areas so misplaced on the map.

On the other side of the Alps, we have cut up some of the larger provinces. Monferrato has been cut up to make room for Ivrea, Lombardy has been cut up to make room for Milano, Como and Leventina, and Genoa has been cut up to make room for Noli.

View attachment 388394

View attachment 388396

We can start out in Italy, where we left off from the previous picture. Trent has been turned into its own minor Duchy, opening up Brenner Pass between Bozen and Innsbruck. Innsbruck and Tirol has moved a bit westwards, to make room for Pongau as part of the new Duchy of Salzburg. In Bavaria, we have added the county of Regensburg, as it was the capital of the Duchy for quite a while, and we wanted to see that reflected in the game. Passau has also been moved into the Duchy.

To the east, Austria has gotten quite the rework. We have added Traungau, Steyr Freistadt, Krems and Melk as Counties, moved Znojmo into Bohemia and Passau, as previously mentioned, into Bavaria, and Styria has been moved south into its own Duchy. The Duchy of Carinthia has been cut up into Carinthia and Carniola, and the Duchy of Friuli has been added around Aquileia.

View attachment 388397

View attachment 388398

So for our last location, we have central Italy. I figure I will talk about the mountains first, as we have added parts of the Apennines throughout Italy. We’ve felt this has increased the tactical value of Italy somewhat, as the choices you make for movement and county conquering feels a bit more valuable, and we also felt it cut up the county more nicely, particularly considering the new Kingdom we added in central Italy (this will be discussed further down).

We have added Perugia into the Duchy of Spoleto, moving the whole Duchy a bit further north. Rimini has been added to the Duchy of Ancona, turned the two county Duchy into a three county one, to lessen the amount of chokepoints post-mountainfication.For the old county of Aprutium, we have turned it into the Duchy of Abruzzo and moved it into the Kingdom of Sicily. And we have taken parts of the old County of Firenze, and added the county of Arezzo, to make sure Firenze doesn’t stick its fingers into everyone else, as it has had a tendency to do.

View attachment 388399

So for what I assume will be the most controversial change to the region, the two new Kingdoms added.

For Carinthia, it felt weird giving even more land to a Kingdom that is meant to reflect the historical Stem-Duchy of Bavaria, when we have the Principality of Carantania, the March of Carinthia and later on the Duchy of Carinthia as inspiration that could take the same role. We have made sure, as this is quite the small Kingdom with a lot of land held by the same person in some bookmarked starts, that the AI won’t create the Kingdom right away, so it should be more of a player goal than an AI goal.

And… For Romagna, we wanted to cut Italy into its more historical pieces, without adding a Kingdom called “the Papal States” that was only for an unplayable Theocracy. This was done for several reason: having the Pope try to seek out central Italy as he did throughout history, having the old East Roman areas be more difficult to hold onto for the Kingdom of Italy in the first bookmarks, and to lessen the massive size of the Kingdom of Italy.

So I hope the Dev Diary didn’t get too wordy this time around, and that people can learn to love the changes made to the region! Next time around, we will have a (probably smaller) Dev Diary about the changes made to Holy Orders in Holy Fury!

PS. For those of you with an interest in the Habsburg jaw and the Archduchy of Austria, we have something special for you as well! (A special decision to create the Archduchy.)

View attachment 388400

Wow, just wow, what a great Dev Diary!I love the changes to Austria.

I am also excited to know how the Archduchy of Austria works; which name does it have if held e.g. by a republic? At present landed titles with special title names and FOAs do not accept government-specific localisation for those.
 
There woudl be to have also further Naming improvements like :

Pricipality or princedom can either be a monarchical feudatory or a sovereign state, ruled or reigned over by a monarch with the title of prince or by a monarch with another title within the generic use of the term prince, for example the Principate of Beneventum or the Principate of Capua or Salernum.
Then the Catepanate of Italy ( or Catapanate ) .
Or other names like Pentapoli ( 5 cities )
836px-Italy_1000_AD.svg.png


1058px-Southern_Italy_1112.svg.png


List of states in different periods in middle ages.
 
I also woudl like to ask for a revision and improvement of the trade system with at least the following :


  • Add more trade routes , not just for silk road but internal lesser trade routes like inter european etc.
  • Make other republics playable
  • revise the trade zone system to be able to build outposts even in distant lands ( example Historically Amalfi had trade posts in Baghdad and India , Venice in China and so on ) with removal of limit of mediterranean
  • revise the system of embargo that completely erases the trade posts, this is just an annoying and unrealistic feature, eventually the trade ports could be blocked , sacked , or conquered by a rival merchant republic or house but not completely destroyed .
  • Allow multiple trade posts possible for important nodes or capitals as not only one patrician or even merchant republic had total total control. Historical ly several merhcant republics had their outposts in important levantine cities for trade. Eventually merchant houses could battle for a % of the controlin the important nodes, make wthug wars in the city , sabotage, improve their diplomatic status with the local ruler , try to buy the other merchants posts, so a trade post coudl have multiple patrician houses and multiple merchant republics.
  • Improve the defence of merchant republic, so far they are too weak and suffer from other major feudal powers with constant invasions or hly wars or de jure wars... Instead those shoudl be treated as valuable partners and whoever tries to conquer them should face a very bad economic malus that coudl work as deterrant andso on.
  • allow for far frontier trade embassies and missions ( like MArco polo in China )
 
I also woudl like to ask for a revision and improvement of the trade system with at least the following :


  • Add more trade routes , not just for silk road but internal lesser trade routes like inter european etc.
  • Make other republics playable
  • revise the trade zone system to be able to build outposts even in distant lands ( example Historically Amalfi had trade posts in Baghdad and India , Venice in China and so on ) with removal of limit of mediterranean
  • revise the system of embargo that completely erases the trade posts, this is just an annoying and unrealistic feature, eventually the trade ports could be blocked , sacked , or conquered by a rival merchant republic or house but not completely destroyed .
  • Allow multiple trade posts possible for important nodes or capitals as not only one patrician or even merchant republic had total total control. Historical ly several merhcant republics had their outposts in important levantine cities for trade. Eventually merchant houses could battle for a % of the controlin the important nodes, make wthug wars in the city , sabotage, improve their diplomatic status with the local ruler , try to buy the other merchants posts, so a trade post coudl have multiple patrician houses and multiple merchant republics.
  • Improve the defence of merchant republic, so far they are too weak and suffer from other major feudal powers with constant invasions or hly wars or de jure wars... Instead those shoudl be treated as valuable partners and whoever tries to conquer them should face a very bad economic malus that coudl work as deterrant andso on.
  • allow for far frontier trade embassies and missions ( like MArco polo in China )

There is a suggestion forum.
 
He was saying that Greece is now one of the most powerful kingdoms after the various re-shapes in the Arabian and Persian empires. I remember the kingdom of Greece spanning all of Anatolia and current Greece. Somebody said that Greece was going to be split into Greece and Thrace, which I think is a bit silly. Then again, I think that splitting Italy up is annoying. I like the ability to get almost enough land to form the Italian Empire with 2 successful plots as Matilda Di Canossa.
thanks for correcting me. I missed his point and that my post makes no sense then.

I agree that some kingdoms are getting splitted unnecessarily, but I also understand the reasoning behind Romagna and Carinthia, though I also understand that some people can be annoyed. Anyways, I think some kingdoms shuold be stronger and larger than others... so in the end I'm not going to take sides in this quarrel