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Dev Diary #91: Starbases

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary marks the start of dev diaries about a major upcoming update that we have named the 'Cherryh' update after science fiction author C.J. Cherryh. This is a major update that will include some very significant reworks to core gameplay systems, reworks that we have been prototyping and testing for some time. Right now, we cannot say anything about the exact nature of the update or anything at all about when it will be released, other than that it's far away. Normally, we wouldn't be doing dev diaries on an update at this stage at all, but there's simply so much to talk about that we have to start early. Cherryh will be a massive update, the largest one we've done to date, and there are many new and changed things to talk about in the coming weeks and months.

Please bear in mind that screenshots are from an early internal build and will contain art and interfaces that are WIP, non-final numbers, hot code and all that business.

Border Rework
We've never been entirely happy with the border system in Stellaris. While it generally works fine from a gameplay perspective, it has some rather quirky elements, such as being able to claim ownership of systems that you have never visited and indeed have no ability to reach and making it hard to tell what the exact border adjustments will be when planets are ceded or outposts are built. For this reason, we have decided to fundamentally rework the Stellaris border system to be based on solar system ownership. Each system will have a single owner, with complete control of the system, and borders are now simply a reflection of system ownership rather than a cause for it to change. In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
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Starbases
A Starbase is a space station orbiting the star of said system. Each system can only have a single Starbase, but this can be anything from a remote Outpost to a massive Citadel with its own 'fleet' of orbiting defense stations. Starbases can be upgraded and specialized in a variety of ways (more details on this below), and is the primary means of determining system ownership. This means that wars are no longer fought for colonies controlling a nebulous blob of border that may not actually include the systems you really want, but rather for the exact systems you are interested in, and their starbases. This change of course would not be possible if we kept the wargoal system that exists in the live version of the game (just imagine the size of that wargoal list...), but more on that in a couple weeks.
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As Starbases now determine system ownership, it will no longer be possible to colonize or invade primitives outside your borders in the Cherryh update, but if a system contains a colony and no starbase, it will still count as being inside the borders of the colony's owner. These restrictions are moddable. Since Starbases now cost influence to construct (see below), we have removed the influence cost for colonizing and attacking primitives.

Starbases entirely replace the old system of Frontier Outposts.

Starbase Construction
With borders from colonies gone, empires now start only owning their home system, with a Starbase already constructed around their home star. To expand outside their home system, empires will have to construct Outposts in surveyed systems. An Outpost is a level 'zero' Starbase that has only very basic defenses and cannot support any buildings or modules, but also does not count towards your maximum Starbase Capacity (more on that below). Building an Outpost in a system costs influence, with the cost dependent on how far away the system is and how contigous it is to your empire as a whole, so 'snaking' or building starbases to ring in a certain part of space will be more influence-costly than simply expanding in a natural way. Starbases do not cost any influence upkeep, just an up-front cost when first building one in a system. As this change makes influence far more important in the early game, there will also be significant balance changes to empire influence generation in the Cherryh update.
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As an aside note, because we felt it made very little sense to have a home system with a fully built Starbase but no surveyed planet, empire home systems will now start surveyed, with a only slightly randomized amount of resources, and mining/research stations for some of those resources already in place. This should also help make player starts a little less random, ensuring that you are never *completely* without resources in your home system.
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Another thing we have been wary about when working on this is making sure that building the Outposts for each system does not simply feel like adding tedium. Right now, between the fact that which systems you choose to spend your limited influence on is an extremely important choice, and various tweaks and interface improvements we are making to ease up the process of developing your systems, we are confident that this will not be the case. We've also made it so that there are no entirely 'empty' systems (systems with no resources at all), as we discovered during playtesting that spending influence to claim such a system felt extremely unrewarding.

Upgrades and Capacity
Each empire will have a Starbase Capacity that represents the number of upgraded Starbases they can support. There are five levels of Starbases:
Outpost: A basic Outpost that exists only to claim a system. Costs no energy maintenance and does not count towards the Starbase Capacity, and cannot support buildings or modules. Outposts will also not show up in the outliner or galaxy map, as they are not meant to be interacted with at all unless it is to upgrade the Outpost to a Starport.
Starport: The first level of upgraded Starbase, available at the start of the game. Supports 2 modules and 1 building.
Starhold: The second level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 4 modules and 2 buildings.
Star Fortress: The third level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 3 buildings.
Citadel: The final level of upgraded Starbase, unlocked through tech. Supports 6 modules and 4 buildings.
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Regardless of the level of the Starbase, so long as it is not an Outpost, it will use 1 Starbase Capacity and will show up on the map and in the outliner. Overall, the design goal is for the vast majority of Starbases to be Outposts that you never have to manage, with a handful of upgraded Starbases that are powerful and critical assets for your empire. Going over your Starbase Capacity will result in sharply increased Starbase energy maintenance costs. Starbase Capacity can be increased through techs, traditions and other such means. You also gain a small amount of Starbase Capacity from the number of Pops in your empire. If you end up over Starbase Capacity for whatever reason, it is possible to downgrade upgraded Starbases back into Outposts. It is also possible to dismantle Starbases entirely and give up control of those systems, so long as they are not in a system with a colonized planet.
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Spaceports and Ship Construction
Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships). To build military ships you will need a Starbase with at least one Shipyard module (more on that below). Starbases also replace Spaceports/Planets in that they are now the primary place to repair, upgrade, dock and rally ships, though civilian ships are also able to repair at planets.
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Modules and Buildings
All non-Outpost Starbases can support Modules and Buildings. Some of these are available from the start of the game, while others are unlocked by tech. Some modules and buildings are only available in certain systems, for example Trading Hubs can only be constructed in colonized systems.

Modules are the fundamental, external components of the Starbase, and determine its actual role. Module choices include Trading Hubs (for improving the economy of colonized systems), Anchorages (for Naval Capacity), Shipyards (for building ships, duh), and different kinds of defensive modules such as gun turrets and strike craft hangar bays that improve the Starbase's combat ability. There is no restrictions on the number of modules you can have of a certain type, besides the actual restriction on module slots itself. This means, for example, that you can have a Starbase entirely dedicated to Shipyards, capable of building up to 6 ships in parallell. Modules will also change the graphical appearance of the Starbase, so a dedicated Shipyard will look different from a massive defensive-oriented fortress brimming with dozens of gun turrets.
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Buildings represent internal structures inside the Starbase proper, and typically work to enhance modules or provide a global buff to the Starbase or system as a whole. Building choices include the Offworld Trading Company that increases the effectiveness of all Trading Hub modules, and the Listening Post that massively improves the Starbase's sensor range. You cannot have multiples of the same building on the same Starbase.
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Defenses
One of the fundamental problems with the military stations in the live version of the game is that they simply do not have enough firepower. Even with impressive hit points and shields, a station with at most a dozen or so guns simply cannot match the firepower of a whole fleet. An another issue is the ability to build multiple defense stations in the same system, meaning that no single station can be strong enough to match a fleet, as otherwise a system with several such stations will be effectively invulnerable. For this reason we decided to consolidate all system defenses into the Starbase mechanics, but not into a single station. Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase. These are automatically kept up to date with technological advances, so your Starbases won't be fielding red lasers and basic deflectors when facing fleets armed with tachyon lances.
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Additionally, Starbases (with the exception of Outposts) have the ability to construct defense platforms to protect them. Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets. The amount of defense platforms a Starbase can support may depend on factors such as starbase size and modules/buildings, technology, policies, and so on. The exact details here are still being worked on, but the design intent is that if you invest into them, Starbase defenses will scale against fleets across the whole game rather just being completely outpaced in the late game as military stations and spaceports currently are in the live version.
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One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means. They can, however be disabled and even captured by enemies. More on this in a couple weeks.

... whew, this was a long one but that's all for today! Next week we'll continue talking about the Cherryh update, with the topic being Faster than Light travel...
 
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Something that is bad in its very foundations can't be improved. This is bad in its very foundation. A good game designer knows when to abandon a bad system.

So we only disagree about if something like the old border system could be transformed into something successful. And as some other games were quite successful with borders based on "spheres", I'm rather sure that Stellaris could have improved its system too. Heck, I could even imagine a combination of both systems.
I can't help it, I'll stick with my opinion that this solution lacks ambition. They played it safe, relying on the most elementary solution. Nothing wrong with that, but playing safe doesn't result in me being excited.
 
Regarding micro, creating a sector would be as easy as creating a colony now on galactic map? Also, when colonizing a planet off borders, could the colonize button include a build outpost order, with the normal influence cost and a tooltip explaining why?

Regarding defense stations / platforms, it would make more sense that each would count to the cap of star bases. I'm not sure I like their departure either.
 
Have you considered having already built but abandoned star bases in some systems which can be "captured" and powered back up?

Something else to give that "oh snap I have this close by!" feeling when exploring space.
 
I mean yes, if you want to intentionally play the game badly you can do that. How you describe it is absolutely not how it's working out when we're playing the development build right now though.

I'm somewhat wary, like Tim_Ward, only because the AI is unlikely to make qualitative decisions like you're trying to promote the player making. When an AI snowballs, it will always snowball harder than any player, and it is going to be perceived by the player as 'AI claims big chunks of space cos it can'.

I think it's a reasonable concern, considering the vast improvements you made to the AI with 1.8. Well done with that btw Wiz.
 
Can we have a slick interface for building outposts, something like what we have currently for sectors? I think that would reduce the tedium that some have pointed to in this thread.
 
Yes.


I kind of see what you're getting at, but your concerns are overblown. Wouldn't all non-reflexive actions, taken after thinking to take that action, be mindless by that definition?

I do think that having something like "build multiple" option for pops but for outposts (and especially for planet-side buildings) would be great.
 
Wow. There's a lot to unpack here. Most of it has me excited, some of it I'm a little skeptical about, but I guess this is normal with any such huge change.

In the Cherryh update, who owns a system is almost always based on the owner of the Starbase in said system.
Combined with the later mention that starbases won't be destroyed but instead captured, does this mean that planetary invasions are no longer a thing? Probably something that will be discussed in an upcoming dev diary, but I have to say, it does sound as if Stellaris would move away from a rather big aspect of traditional sci-fi with this sort of "streamlining".

[edit] nvm, sounds as if taking the starbase is merely the first step? Will await future teases with anticipation.

It also sounds a bit weird and "arcade" when every single system needs an outpost rather than it at least just being an *alternative* to colonization. I assume this has to do with system ownership being moved from planetary control to who owns that building orbiting the sun, but it appears this may feel a little arbitrary or even disruptive from an immersion/story point of view. Send a couple squads of marines to board an outpost, suddenly the system's colonies with millions of inhabitants follow your rule?

I hope an upcoming dev diary will somewhat allay these fears, but I thought it best to express a degree of concern as soon as possible just in case community feedback may have an impact on developer perception/inspiration.

Starbases fully replace Spaceports in the role of system/planet defense and military ship construction. Spaceports still exist, but are no longer separate stations but rather an integrated part of the planet, and can only build civilian ships (Science Ships, Construction Ships and Colony Ships).
Is this a fallback mechanism, or will civilian ships be buildable ONLY on civilian spaceports? I would hope it's the former and the player can also build civilian ships in their starbase, if they so choose. Primarily as a QOL feature (I assume starbases may be selectable in the outliner, allowing faster selection/construction), but also because it sounds as if some buildings may benefit civilian ship construction as well.

Anchorages (for Naval Capacity)
Interesting! Will Anchorages just provide a flat bonus to Naval Capacity, or will they instead neutralize/lower the Naval Capacity consumption of a fleet *anchored* there?

Maybe this is just my preference for merging gameplay with realism/immersion, but I would hope it's the latter, as this way players would be presented with interesting choices regarding fleet size, dispersion, and starbase modules, such as having to balance starbase defense with fleet support, or otherwise accepting that their (anchored) fleet will be several jumps away from the border they are supposed to protect.

It'd also present the somewhat silly minmaxing tactic of building a bunch of "anchorages" in the heartland far away from the border .. and the fleet that is supposed to somehow benefit from this.

Starbases come with a basic array of armaments and utilities (gun and missile turrets, shields and armor, etc), with the exact number of weapons based on the level of the Starbase.
Excited to see this addition. It's a mechanic I already like a lot from the Star Trek New Horizons mod, and which will surely add to the decision-making process of starbase construction. Exactly the kind of choices I like to be presented with!

Constructed defense platforms will form a 'fleet' around the Starbase, supporting it with their own weapons and giving Starbases the firepower needed to engage entire fleets.
Is the team planning to improve on the placement? The work-in-progress screenshots make it look rather chaotic and thus a bit unsuitable for an orderly military defense cordon. It would be nice if the platforms would be arranged and aligned in a sort of formation around the starbase, perhaps a bit like with the real-life "star forts" and their layered perimeters and secondary buildings.

Also, this probably ties into the apparent lack of planetary invasions, but it sounds as if colonies in the system will be left entirely defenseless, and an aggressor simply has no option to exploit this? Or will the starbases have such a large engagement radius that any enemy fleet passing the system's border will be forced into battle?

One last note on Starbases: For a variety of reasons (among them to avoid something like the tedious rebuilding of Spaceports that happens at the end of wars) Starbases cannot be destroyed through conventional means.
I have to admit, this feels a bit disappointing. As you always say, there is a balance to be found between gameplay/fun and realism, but ultimately, we play Stellaris not just because it's a game of numbers, but because it's a sci-fi game whose stories and visuals are tickling our imagination. Starbases always surviving combat is a pretty big breach of immersion; it was already bad enough that habitats are invulnerable, but at least those were not directly participating in battles.

If starbases end up being a stationary equivalent of fleets, I don't think it is too much to ask of players to rebuild them. It is no more tedious than having to rebuild all the ships the enemy lost in taking that system, after all.

I hope this does not come off as overly critical. All in all I am rather impressed by this projected change; the above-quoted bits are merely the ones that gave me pause and reason to raise a brow when reading.
 
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@Wiz, would it be possible to implement a system for building outposts from the galaxy map, similar to when selecting which systems to put in a sector?

For example: 1) click a construction ship 2) click "build an outpost" from the ship's menu 3) click a system from galaxy map / hold shift and click any number of systems

Additionally, hovering your mouse above a system after step 2 would show the required influence cost.
 
Yes.


I kind of see what you're getting at, but your concerns are overblown. Wouldn't all non-reflexive actions, taken after thinking to take that action, be mindless by that definition?

No, in two ways:

1) non-trivial reordering is forced by constantly changing circumstances. This could be something like "build order" in a traditional RTS, but any game or situation where you have to re-evaluate strategic decisions regularly. border expansion will have obvious points for this, but once you've decided something "I'm going to back fill these star systems I've blocked everyone off from" it's not going to change - and at some point you're going to do it anyway, even if some other priority temporarily pops up.

2) implementation your strategic decisions is interesting in itself, because it requires tactical adjustments on the fly. building star outposts is of course the opposite of this, as you just confirmed (select ship -> right click star -> select build outpost).
 
To some degree it actually mitigates the mining/research station clicking because you typically take things one system at a time instead of suddenly claiming five new systems that need to be built up. We're discussing ways to make construction of stations easier though, including having mining/research stations be disabled rather than destroyed, better construction of them from the galaxy map, and possibly automation via Starbases.

I would strongly support mining/research stations being disabled rather than destroyed. That would be a huge QoL improvement.
 
So we only disagree about if something like the old border system could be transformed into something successful. And as some other games were quite successful with borders based on "spheres", I'm rather sure that Stellaris could have improved its system too. Heck, I could even imagine a combination of both systems.
I can't help it, I'll stick with my opinion that this solution lacks ambition. They played it safe, relying on the most elementary solution. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not excited either.

The old border system was really horrible. The way you could be locked out of entire regions of space based on some arbitrary invisible line was frankly ridiculous ("Oh look, now that I've picked up Galactic Ambitions, the influence zones of my two colonies have joined together, so that critical hyperlane node located in between them is now in my territory and I'm not letting anyone else use it"). I'm so glad it's gone.
 
I'm amazed by the number and persistence of people telling Wiz he's wrong about the design of starbases, and that they totally don't work and are not strategic and too micro, without ever having seen a relevantly long piece of gameplay footage, much less actually played the version of the game the devs obviously have access to.

(Then again, there's still that issue about Unity and Wiz saying 'It will not be possible for a unity-focussed empire to actually gain all traditions before the very-very-late-game, don't worry about Unity becoming useless' before 1.6, and being proven wrong within a day.)
 
@Wiz, look like very promising changes across the board, and I especially like the fact you guys decided to rework war in its enitrety rather than patch some of its aspects.

I hope this patch will also rework ground combat to be more meaningful and better implemented.
 
Is it possible to add an 'automatic build' technology or something? I'm in the late game right now and having to manually tell all my construction ships to go build stuff on each individual system is VERY annoying.
 
This is more of a modding question, but how are the tools for making buildings on planets and habitats affect the Starbases? For example, making "defense structures" in the Habitats improve the system's Starbase rather than arming the Habitat itself, or a Planetary shields that boost the Starbase (Forest Moon of Endor?)
 
People complaining about building outposts is "mindless micro" is almost the same as saying building mining/research stations is "mindless micro"

Ridiculous. The dev diary clearly states every system will now have resources so thinking of where to expand and where not to will be rewarding. Its not mindless at all. Building an outpost every 5 or so minutes of gameplay doesnt sound micro intensive to me.

EDIT: AND keep in mind expansion phase is only for a certian part of the game. Mid game will probably be you taking outposts from other empires. Not building them.
 
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Now we not just planet-destroying weapons but starbase destroying ones as well.

Also habitats will now be equal to planets, I guess, with the starbase issue gone.