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EU4 - Development Diary - 18th of June 2019

Hello and good morning. Today we will finally unveil our long-anticipated changes to the map and political setup of the Balkans, as well as taking a look at Austria. This will be our final dev diary on map changes for the European update.

As befits the fragmented nature of the Balkans, today’s dev diary will be divided into three parts, each written by a member of the Content Design team who personally worked on each region.

dd_greece.png


I’ll begin with my own work on Greece and Bulgaria. You’ll notice that province density has noticeably increased, but rest assured we have taken care to avoid adding a net development boost to the Ottomans. We feel that their current level of development makes them a sufficiently powerful force, and any further advantages would harm the experience for players in their vicinity.

We’ve split the Bulgaria area in two, with most of Bulgaria remaining in “Bulgaria” but with the east in the new Silistria area. Bulgaria in total has gained 3 new provinces: Tolcu, split from Silistre, allows for a more accurate Ottoman-Moldavian border. Tirnovo, once a major cultural, military, and economic center for the Bulgarian Empire, declined under Ottoman rule but remained a thorn in the side of the Turks as it was a hotbed for Bulgarian resistance. Finally, Kyustendil/Kostendil was the center of an Ottoman sanjak and an exploitable mining site.

Thrace and Macedonia have also been updated with new provinces. Edirne has lost its access to the sea to the new province of Gelibolu/Gallipoli, home to a mighty fortress and naval arsenal. Parts of the former Edirne have also been added to the new Gumulcine province. Lastly, Selanik is now confined to the area around the city of Thessaloniki, as Siroz now occupies the outer reaches.

Moving down into Greece proper, a new nation has appeared while another is notable by its absence. Epirus, with its capital in the new province of Arta, is ruled by the Tocco dynasty who for whatever reason were previously represented as the rulers of the Venetian vassal-state of Corfu. Corfu no longer exists in 1444, but it retains its core on the island. Epirus also rules the island of Cephalonia, which has been separated from the Corfu province and gives Epirus the ability to produce wine. Fans of Byzantium will be pleased to hear that they now possess an additional province at the start of the game, based around the historic city of Corinth. And in the Aegean Sea, Lesbos has been split from Scio - Lesbos has a strait connection to Biga while Scio connects to Sugla.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dd_austria.jpg


I'm @Caligula Caesar, and I'm here to tell you about our changes to Austria. Now, some of you may be aware that there is a good case for splitting Austria in three at the start of the game and requiring them to unify their territories. However, as a team we elected NOT to do this. Our reasoning is simple: For an enjoyable and challenging game on continental Europe, it is necessary for there to be a strong Austria. As Austria is already one of the more vulnerable superpowers in the early game, making their starting position significantly weaker by reducing their directly held territories by 2/3 would simply not make a better game experience.

We felt that Austria's starting development was fine as it was, but its province density was not quite at the level we wanted, so we added some new provinces by splitting existing provinces' development. As we have already shown, Tirol was split between Inntal and Etschtal and South Tirol became Trent, now an independent tag; also, some impassable mountains were added between Tirol and Venetia. Moving east, we split Kärnten in two between Oberkärnten/Villach and Unterkärnten/Klagenfurt. In the north, Linz's province (now known as Oberenns) was reshaped significantly and room was made for Traungau (with the significant ironworking town of Steyr as its capital) to the south of it. Wien province, too, has been split, with Wienerwald/Sankt Pölten taking its place to the west.

Finally, in the south, we added the Slovene culture. This culture is present in Görz, Krain and Celje. The last of those is owned by a new tag, the Counts of Cilli - known by their German name as its rulers were the German von Cilli family (the tag itself retains Slovene culture, however, and has some dynamic province names for surrounding areas).

Now on to @Ofaloaf 's work on the Western Balkans:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dd_serbia.jpg


This work owes a tremendous amount to @otaats and his suggestions in Serbia & friends, which (in a truncated form) served as an inspiration. I also want to give a shoutout to @Wokeg, whose enthusiasm for the region and its history has been an excellent inspiration and motivation.

Most of the mapwork simply provides greater provincial fidelity, but there are some significant changes and additions. Starting with the smaller stuff, Venetian holdings along the Adriatic coast are better defined, with old Dalmatian province now split between Zara and Spalato and Cattaro now spun off from the province of Zeta. Albania also gets a second province, Krüje, which was one of the strongholds of the Albanian ruler Skanderbeg. Fortified and mountainous, Krüje should be a real pain to crack early in the game.

One of the most major additions to the region is the inclusion of Herzegovina. It's a relatively new state in 1444, being largely the creation of Stjepan Vukčić, who inherited those lands in 1435. Stjepan was an incredibly ambitious nobleman who took on the title of herceg (borrowed from German herzog) and ruled a portion of the Kingdom of Bosnia as a de facto independent realm called the Duchy of Saint Sava, which is the name its contemporaries knew it as. While Stjepan had the chops for independent rule, his sons weren't quite as canny, and in 1483 the realm was conquered by advancing Ottoman forces. However, Stjepan's title, herceg, lived on in the Ottoman name for the territory, and this eventually became the name Herzegovina, which is what we know the area now as and, for the sake of familiarity, the name which the realm (and its capital province) is called in-game.

You may have also noticed that Croatia is now present on the map. It starts in a union under Hungary, and depending on Hungarian fortunes may now either break away in one fell swoop or be more firmly incorporated into the Crown of St. Stephen. While the inclusion of Croatia does provide some interesting opportunities for Hungarian expansion or wresting parts of the Hungarian domain away from Budapest, the inclusion of Croatia as a separate entity has called for a little historical fudging. Rule of Croatia and Slavonia was split in 1444, although the two entities were ruled by Croatian brothers at the time of the Grand Campaign, and the titles would be merged together into a united Banate in 1476. To prevent Hungarian diplomatic relations from being eaten up by subjects and give it a slightly more powerful vassal to keep in check, Croatia here is unified slightly early.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all for reading this and our other map-based dev diaries, it’s been a pleasure to present our work to you and to read your feedback and ideas. Next week we will take a look at some of the new mission trees coming to this region - most likely Austria, one of the Balkan minors, and something you might not expect. We’ll also talk a little about the Hungarian succession. Until then, have a great week!
 
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Hello and good morning. Today we will finally unveil our long-anticipated changes to the map and political setup of the Balkans, as well as taking a look at Austria. This will be our final dev diary on map changes for the European update.

As befits the fragmented nature of the Balkans, today’s dev diary will be divided into three parts, each written by a member of the Content Design team who personally worked on each region.

View attachment 492412

I’ll begin with my own work on Greece and Bulgaria. You’ll notice that province density has noticeably increased, but rest assured we have taken care to avoid adding a net development boost to the Ottomans. We feel that their current level of development makes them a sufficiently powerful force, and any further advantages would harm the experience for players in their vicinity.

We’ve split the Bulgaria area in two, with most of Bulgaria remaining in “Bulgaria” but with the east in the new Silistria area. Bulgaria in total has gained 3 new provinces: Tolcu, split from Silistre, allows for a more accurate Ottoman-Moldavian border. Tirnovo, once a major cultural, military, and economic center for the Bulgarian Empire, declined under Ottoman rule but remained a thorn in the side of the Turks as it was a hotbed for Bulgarian resistance. Finally, Kyustendil/Kostendil was the center of an Ottoman sanjak and an exploitable mining site.

Thrace and Macedonia have also been updated with new provinces. Edirne has lost its access to the sea to the new province of Gelibolu/Gallipoli, home to a mighty fortress and naval arsenal. Parts of the former Edirne have also been added to the new Gumulcine province. Lastly, Selanik is now confined to the area around the city of Thessaloniki, as Siroz now occupies the outer reaches.

Moving down into Greece proper, a new nation has appeared while another is notable by its absence. Epirus, with its capital in the new province of Arta, is ruled by the Tocco dynasty who for whatever reason were previously represented as the rulers of the Venetian vassal-state of Corfu. Corfu no longer exists in 1444, but it retains its core on the island. Epirus also rules the island of Cephalonia, which has been separated from the Corfu province and gives Epirus the ability to produce wine. Fans of Byzantium will be pleased to hear that they now possess an additional province at the start of the game, based around the historic city of Corinth. And in the Aegean Sea, Lesbos has been split from Scio - Lesbos has a strait connection to Biga while Scio connects to Sugla.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View attachment 492413

I'm @Caligula Caesar, and I'm here to tell you about our changes to Austria. Now, some of you may be aware that there is a good case for splitting Austria in three at the start of the game and requiring them to unify their territories. However, as a team we elected NOT to do this. Our reasoning is simple: For an enjoyable and challenging game on continental Europe, it is necessary for there to be a strong Austria. As Austria is already one of the more vulnerable superpowers in the early game, making their starting position significantly weaker by reducing their directly held territories by 2/3 would simply not make a better game experience.

We felt that Austria's starting development was fine as it was, but its province density was not quite at the level we wanted, so we added some new provinces by splitting existing provinces' development. As we have already shown, Tirol was split between Inntal and Etschtal and South Tirol became Trent, now an independent tag; also, some impassable mountains were added between Tirol and Venetia. Moving east, we split Kärnten in two between Oberkärnten/Villach and Unterkärnten/Klagenfurt. In the north, Linz's province (now known as Oberenns) was reshaped significantly and room was made for Traungau (with the significant ironworking town of Steyr as its capital) to the south of it. Wien province, too, has been split, with Wienerwald/Sankt Pölten taking its place to the west.

Finally, in the south, we added the Slovene culture. This culture is present in Görz, Krain and Celje. The last of those is owned by a new tag, the Counts of Cilli - known by their German name as its rulers were the German von Cilli family (the tag itself retains Slovene culture, however, and has some dynamic province names for surrounding areas).

Now on to @Ofaloaf 's work on the Western Balkans:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View attachment 492414

This work owes a tremendous amount to @otaats and his suggestions in Serbia & friends, which (in a truncated form) served as an inspiration. I also want to give a shoutout to @Wokeg, whose enthusiasm for the region and its history has been an excellent inspiration and motivation.

Most of the mapwork simply provides greater provincial fidelity, but there are some significant changes and additions. Starting with the smaller stuff, Venetian holdings along the Adriatic coast are better defined, with old Dalmatian province now split between Zara and Spalato and Cattaro now spun off from the province of Zeta. Albania also gets a second province, Krüje, which was one of the strongholds of the Albanian ruler Skanderbeg. Fortified and mountainous, Krüje should be a real pain to crack early in the game.

One of the most major additions to the region is the inclusion of Herzegovina. It's a relatively new state in 1444, being largely the creation of Stjepan Vukčić, who inherited those lands in 1435. Stjepan was an incredibly ambitious nobleman who took on the title of herceg (borrowed from German herzog) and ruled a portion of the Kingdom of Bosnia as a de facto independent realm called the Duchy of Saint Sava, which is the name its contemporaries knew it as. While Stjepan had the chops for independent rule, his sons weren't quite as canny, and in 1483 the realm was conquered by advancing Ottoman forces. However, Stjepan's title, herceg, lived on in the Ottoman name for the territory, and this eventually became the name Herzegovina, which is what we know the area now as and, for the sake of familiarity, the name which the realm (and its capital province) is called in-game.

You may have also noticed that Croatia is now present on the map. It starts in a union under Hungary, and depending on Hungarian fortunes may now either break away in one fell swoop or be more firmly incorporated into the Crown of St. Stephen. While the inclusion of Croatia does provide some interesting opportunities for Hungarian expansion or wresting parts of the Hungarian domain away from Budapest, the inclusion of Croatia as a separate entity has called for a little historical fudging. Rule of Croatia and Slavonia was split in 1444, although the two entities were ruled by Croatian brothers at the time of the Grand Campaign, and the titles would be merged together into a united Banate in 1476. To prevent Hungarian diplomatic relations from being eaten up by subjects and give it a slightly more powerful vassal to keep in check, Croatia here is unified slightly early.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you all for reading this and our other map-based dev diaries, it’s been a pleasure to present our work to you and to read your feedback and ideas. Next week we will take a look at some of the new mission trees coming to this region - most likely Austria, one of the Balkan minors, and something you might not expect. We’ll also talk a little about the Hungarian succession. Until then, have a great week!
Why didnt you add Bosnian culture.
 
I dont like how some nations play by CK rules, and others by EU. Giving some counts/dukes vasal status, but not everyone does not make any sence.
How can Celje be playable but not some other counties?
I sort of understand that Croatia is just an addition of flavor, but it makes no sense in game rules. In 1444 it was integrated and a part of Hungarian crown. Even those 50 in game rules are way past.

And I really hope there was some historically change to culture map, as some parts were different culture than now.
Focus should not be on political correctness and modern borders, but on historical accuracy!
 
We feel that the Hungary patch left the Hungarian province setup in a good place in terms of performance and province density. We see no need to fix what isn't broken. Though we'll certainly be looking at other kinds of content for Hungary.

@neondt
Excuse me, but it's really far from reality. While some could argue Hungary should be stronger, as it right after the games start, defeated Austria and counquered Wien, for example. But even an update with very few development added (I think it's already red enough) could help a lot, not to mention the river Drava, as I pointed out above. Please, consider a slight update to Hungary, regarding to the maps too.
0160374415168680ee6cd77d9de2e0b549040583de9be5e879dd0f99f17881dbd0a94ce4.jpg

This is how provinces could look like if the Drava-mistake would be corrected. Now don't tell me that province density in Western Hungary is fine. These are twice the size of pre-patch Austrian provinces... The Iron Curtain happened outside of Eu4's scope, I don't think there should be such a sharp difference between density.
 
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After this all there's left to do is SE Asia!
 
View attachment 492412

I’ll begin with my own work on Greece and Bulgaria. You’ll notice that province density has noticeably increased, but rest assured we have taken care to avoid adding a net development boost to the Ottomans. We feel that their current level of development makes them a sufficiently powerful force, and any further advantages would harm the experience for players in their vicinity.

Sorry to be so specific but what is the total development of The Ottomans and Byzantium? What is the total force limit of the Ottomans to Byzantium?

Does byz still have their core on Epirius?
Is Epirius a vassal of Venice?

These things are the things that matter in a dev diary like this.

I could see this update making a Byz playthrough easier or harder. On the one hand I don't expect the Ottomans force limit to be raised by as little percent as Byz's so they will probably be tougher to take down.

The marching patterns of the Ottomans may also have changed to be harder as well.

On the other hand having a level 2 fort on the coast lowers its level by one so it will be quicker to take over but it could be impossible to hold if the Ottomans have 10 more fl. All the extra province on the Balkans side could mean more warscore for a partial byz victory. Taking Epirus could be good early dev but a byz player really wants their first war to be the ottos so maybe it won't be as useful.
 
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@Caligula Caesar: First of all, I like it that Austria is part of the "Balkans"-DLC, there is a saying in Austria that the Balkans begin in Vienna :)

I like the changes in the Austrian provinces, although I am not entirely sure if leaving the total development intact is ideal. Austria was already on the lower level of development for a European country. Spreading it over more provinces might make it even more difficult to embrace institutions, and reduce the benefits of building. Although this might make sense (Austria was not very strong in economic terms and heavily relied on the Fugger-Banking), I think at least Wien should not suffer a significant reduction in development from being split, considering its important status. I agree with the decision to not split Austria, although I hope for some DHE / flavour events reflecting the instable situation and the tense relations with Mathias Corvinus / Hungary.

Names: However this is an important issue - the name "Ostmark" is inappropriate - it was only actually used by the Nazis during the occupation of Austria (for the whole of Austria, not just this region), while it existed before it was an ahistorical name applied retrospectively in the 19th and early 20th centure, it was never used in the time-frame of EU4.
I guess the best name would be "Niederösterreich" (=Lower Austria) the name used today, although technically it would also include the Wienerwald and Wien provinces), while this is a fairly recent name, it is shorter than the name at the time "Österreich unter der Enns". In the same manner "Oberenns" should be called "Oberösterreich" ("Upper Austria") or if one likes long names "Österreich ob der Enns", "Oberenns" was never used. The 2 names I suggest could also be easily translated into all languages like Czech and Co (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Austria). For "Oberenns" "Mühlviertel" would also be a possible as it correspondends very closely to the area of the province.
 
@neondt @DDRJake
Now for my full criticism on this map work and everything.

Im going to go on and take this into account written in this dev diary back from Golden Century.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-4th-of-december-2018.1133037/

Im going to try and be as diplomatic as possible here.

Now we all know Golden Century has been poorly received. Mostly the Iberian additions in that DLC fell flat and I'm worried to see a similar repeat here.

You are mentioning that you are going to take more feedback into account and try to do more with suggestions. Which was the entire point of posting these next map updates in an earlier stage of the development cycle instead of in the end.

Only minor changes are likely to be made from here. The Baltic beyond the coast of Germany is not part of the scope of this update.

And when I see that you mention that this seems to be the final work for this patch and only minor changes will be included. Im worried, I am really worried.

Please take more time to go over what you currently have in stock and see if improvements can be made. Look at mods like Beyond Typus and Meiou and Taxes and take their work into consideration. Really outdo yourself with this.

Can you give us a full explanation what your design intentions for the map work are and why OPMs are being discarded all across Europe as something somehow bad.

For as far as I know since 1.25 we have lost more OPMs than ever and especially in Europe im pretty sure OPMs have decreased since.

Now for things I know off hand:

Friesland is no longer an OPM
Gelre is no longer an OPM
Utrecht is no longer an OPM

Now the HRE map changes showed us that some new ones were added, but others dissapeared as well, with only really cities staying as OPMs.

Magdeburg is no longer an OPM
Luneburg is no longer an OPM
Stade/Verden is no longer an OPM

I am planning a suggestion thread to show new provinces and changes to current provinces in a bit, because I want to show you how you could really gain perfection for the next patch.

Give us some feedback on what you are planning and why certain changes werent considered and/or made.

Make EU4 Great Again, Please no more Golden Century. Expand your ideas, dont limit yourselves.

Do what the Crusader King Team has been doing. If I look at a developer like Snow Crystal in the Imperator team, who worked for CK2, he made the 3.2 Iron Century patch for Crusader Kings as a standalone mod in Christmas and CK2 decided to just add it to the base game, for FREE.

This is amazing dedication and love for onces project.

Please give us some information if you are going to add some changes or patch to Golden Century DLC to bring it up to standard. Please make changes to Portugal and give it some love.

Increase your map work on this next patch. Give Schleswig-Holstein some work, maybe at least the Baltics as well. Dont forget about Hungary and Wallachia.

EDIT: I posted a thread to show the Suggestions I think should be included in the Vanilla map.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...diary-map-improvements.1191582/#post-25571810
 
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Well we had our own church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church and we were first mentioned in the 10th century by Constantine Porphyrogennetos in his book De Administrando Imperio and we have our burial stone Stećak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stećak
While that is true. Bosnian at this time was mostly Serbo-Croats with a unique church, not yet its own culture, and especially not the people they are today. Maybe an event can be made to distinguish them later on when the ottomans take over, but at this time im quite sure they were regarded as serbo-croats and they saw themselves that way.
 
Austria was not a superpower in 1444 and forcing it to be one while ruining the historical experience of ruling Austria in this time (ruling a divided realm and working toward Primogeniture/integration of the hereditary lands of Austria) is kind of annoying. I hope you continue to explore approaches to this because it was one of the things I was hoping for most.
 
Austria was not a superpower in 1444 and forcing it to be one while ruining the historical experience of ruling Austria in this time (ruling a divided realm and working toward Primogeniture/integration of the hereditary lands of Austria) is kind of annoying. I hope you continue to explore approaches to this because it was one of the things I was hoping for most.

Austria should get a DHE to unify the three countries to make them matter later. But yeah early game HRE is strong because of its disunity not due to unity.
 
@neondt @DDRJake
Now for my full criticism on this map work and everything.

Im going to go on and take this into account written in this dev diary back from Golden Century.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-4th-of-december-2018.1133037/

Im going to try and be as diplomatic as possible here.

Now we all know Golden Century has been poorly received. Mostly the Iberian additions in that DLC fell flat and I'm worried to see a similar repeat here.

You are mentioning that you are going to take more feedback into account and try to do more with suggestions. Which was the entire point of posting these next map updates in an earlier stage of the development cycle instead of in the end.



And when I see that you mention that this seems to be the final work for this patch and only minor changes will be included. Im worried, I am really worried.

Please take more time to go over what you currently have in stock and see if improvements can be made. Look at mods like Beyond Typus and Meiou and Taxes and take their work into consideration. Really outdo yourself with this.

Can you give us a full explanation what your design intentions for the map work are and why OPMs are being discarded all across Europe as something somehow bad.

For as far as I know since 1.25 we have lost more OPMs than ever and especially in Europe im pretty sure OPMs have decreased since.

Now for things I know off hand:

Friesland is no longer an OPM
Gelre is no longer an OPM
Utrecht is no longer an OPM

Now the HRE map changes showed us that some new ones were added, but others dissapeared as well, with only really cities staying as OPMs.

Magdeburg is no longer an OPM
Luneburg is no longer an OPM
Stade/Verden is no longer an OPM

I am planning a suggestion thread to show new provinces and changes to current provinces in a bit, because I want to show you how you could really gain perfection for the next patch.

Give us some feedback on what you are planning and why certain changes werent considered and/or made.

Make EU4 Great Again, Please no more Golden Century. Expand your ideas, dont limit yourselves.

Do what the Crusader King Team has been doing. If I look at a developer like Snow Crystal in the Imperator team, who worked for CK2, he made the 3.2 Iron Century patch for Crusader Kings as a standalone mod in Christmas and CK2 decided to just add it to the base game, for FREE.

This is amazing dedication and love for onces project.

Please give us some information if you are going to add some changes or patch to Golden Century DLC to bring it up to standard. Please make changes to Portugal and give it some love.

Increase your map work on this next patch. Give Schleswig-Holstein some work, maybe at least the Baltics as well. Dont forget about Hungary and Wallachia.

Holy Words, my brother. Holy Words.
 
Only minor changes are likely to be made from here. The Baltic beyond the coast of Germany is not part of the scope of this update.

Didn’t you guys tell us that after Golden Century you would have listened more to the community? ...