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EU4 - Development Diary - 25th of October 2016

Hello everyone and welcome to another Europa Universalis IV development diary. This time we’ll go into the main flavor of the 1.19 patch, which we call Denmark.

Well, why do we call it Denmark? Well.. First of all, we’ve added lots and lots of Dynamic Historical Event to Denmark, bringing them up to par with other european majors. Skåne also starts with the Skånemarket, a large bonus to the fish produced in the province. We have also added a few new provinces in Jylland, while also increasing the development of Denmark as a whole.
eu4_52.png

And as you can see here, the Danes get a nice new unit in 1.19 as well..

eu4_51.png

Norway also got an improvement, getting their map revised to include a fair amount of new provinces, and a wasteland in the center of the mountain range, to make the country more easily defended against the vile swedes. We also gave them a huge chunk of new Dynamic Historical Events, making playing them a fair bit more interesting.
CvhMke2WEAA4Oxh.jpg large.jpg

We also improved the political mapmode, as so many had requested, so we now show the terrain map where there has been no colonisation yet, so you’ll have some more informative eye-candy while playing
eu4_54.png

One other thing to mention today is the fact that we added a fair bit more instructions to the AI for your nation if you crash or are forced to stop playing for a while in a campaign. The following options now exists for your convenience.

  • Ignore Decisions -Yes/No
  • Embrace Institutions - Yes/No
  • Develop Provinces - Yes/No
  • Disband Units - Yes/No
  • Change Fleet Missions - Yes/No
  • Send Missionaries - Yes/No
  • Convert Culture - Yes/No
  • Add/Remove Cultures - Yes/No
Stay tuned.. Next week we’ll talk more about forts, peace options and tradegoods, amongst other things.
 
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8 trading posts and forts. No real settlements. Three lost within the first decade of "settlement". Of the rest four were held nominally for about 70 years, and one for almost 200. None were ever major population centers or profitable. They did better than the Scottish for what it's worth but honestly you are just trying to debate semantics of what qualifies as successful or not.
None of the European colonies on the Ivory/Gold coast were real settlements. It was all mainly forts from where slaves were shipped. That was the purpose of those colonies and they did that job well; and we held forts on that coast all the time.
 
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Wagonlitz, you purpose that Denmark should have 19 provinces once they annex Holstein? Then once they annex Norway have as many ports as Great Britain with all of Ireland and a +50% naval force limit modifier? Sure they couldn't use +10 discipline and +20% morale bonuses as well?
 
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As a Dane - what are the provincial capitals of these new provinces in Denmark? Aalborg for Nordjylland, Aarhus for Østjylland and Kolding for Kolding seems obvious, but the rest?
 
Wagonlitz, you purpose that Denmark should have 19 provinces once they annex Holstein? Then once they annex Norway have as many ports as Great Britain with all of Ireland and a +50% naval force limit modifier? Sure they couldn't use +10 discipline and +20% morale bonuses as well?
I only get to 15 to 16 provinces; which means 17 to 18 once Holstein is taken. But yes. Don't know how province wise Denmark Norway then compares to the UK. Also doesn't the UK have a naval forcelimits NI too? (Can't remember.) Anyway the Danish fleet was one of the largest and strongest throughout this period. Though obviously it shouldn't dwarf the Royal Navy. But coastline wise I actually think that Denmark Norway (including Skåneland) is comparable to the coastline of the British Isles.

I now went and looked it up and the coastline of present day Denmark (without Greenland) and Norway is more than 2 times that of the UK and Ireland---and that is with wiki noting that the Norwegian fjords aren't fully measured in their count, which otherwise would put the coastline way higher. So having as many ports as the British Isles suddenly doesn't look too out of the way anymore. But no, I don't want Denmark to be OP.

As a Dane - what are the provincial capitals of these new provinces in Denmark? Aalborg for Nordjylland, Aarhus for Østjylland and Kolding for Kolding seems obvious, but the rest?
Probably Ringkøbing or Holstebro for Vestjylland; possibly Varde.

gud længe leve!
Gud bevare Danmark!:p
 
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Also doesn't the UK have a naval forcelimits NI too? (Can't remember.)
Not unless they changed it in 1.18. As of 1.17, ENG ideas (which are the assumed default for GBR) provided, in order:
  • +20% naval morale, +33% embargo efficiency (Tradition)
  • +0.25 NT/year, +10% heavy ship power
  • +15% tax
  • +1 relations slot
  • +10% trade efficiency
  • -1% unrest, +10% tariffs
  • +5% discipline
  • +10% sailor recovery speed
  • +1 free leader (Ambition)
Contrast DAN's ideas:
  • +5% ship durability, +1 Legitimacy/year (Tradition)
  • +10% manpower recovery speed
  • +1 NT/year
  • +10% tax
  • -10% naval maintenance
  • +50% naval FL
  • -1% unrest
  • +2 TTF and "church_power_modifier = 0.10"
  • +15% light ship power (Ambition)
 
Shouldn't it actually be Ribe in the 15th and 16th centuries? I've read that it was the second largest city in Denmark during those times.
I did think about Ribe, but Ribe is solidly Southern Jutlandic/Slesvigian and always has been. Sure, it was part of the the kingly enclaves, but that doesn't change that it was solidly Southern Jutlandic and doesn't really have anything to do with Western Jutland.
Don't know if it was 2nd largest, but it sure was important.
 
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About time!

Thank you. Surprised Scandinavia went so long without the love it deserves, it's a very interesting area to play in, now even moreso! Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have some of the most interesting National Idea sets in my opinion.
 
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Personally if I had to split Slesvig I would've gone for an east/west split, the strongest argument for that in my opinion is that I hate how you can land on one side of the peninsula and control both coasts from there. However I don't really see the need to do it at all, there aren't any clear natural splits to be made (an east/west split *might* be based on North Frisia but....) and I don't want to replicate the 19th century divide just because it exists today.
The current province really is not that big, compare if you will to Halland over in Skåneland :)

@Johan, @Trin Tragula,

Can you look at splitting Slesvig further into north and south provinces?

Also, can you please seriously look into adding and changing the map as much as you can in this map and sort of making a 'definitive' set of changes to last a few patches?

So we can minimize map changes between patches in the future?
 
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@Johan, @Trin Tragula,

Can you look at splitting Slesvig further into north and south provinces?

Also, can you please seriously look into adding and changing the map as much as you can in this map and sort of making a 'definitive' set of changes to last a few patches?

So we can minimize map changes between patches in the future?
Why on Earth do you want this?
EU4_Danmark.png


Or how else would you split Southern Jutland; especially with a North South split. Splitting it in the middle after the current border is utterly anachronistic and makes zilch sense. That border cut loads of things and only is that way due to how the referendum zones were made. And where it makes little sense for the late 1800s it makes absolutely no sense for the game's time frame.

You are aware what can of worms you are opening here? Because that split in your screenshot is utterly anachronistic, really bad, and completely unrealistic. It's obviously based on the current border which firstly to a very large degree is a result of events happening after the game's time frame---and in any case something completely unfitting for by far most of the game's time frame. Plus it could well have been different in 1920 when it was divided. And it e.g. puts Flensborg in the southern half which is bad, since it was one of the largest bastions of Danishness once the southern half started to stop being Danish language in the 1800s (culture wise it's pretty much still the old Southern Jutlandic, and hence Danish, culture to this day).

There is a very good reason that I did not propose any province additions to Denmark which involved splitting Slesvig, when I made my suggestions thread about adding more provinces. And that reason is that Slesvig is a border gore par excellance. You will not be able to make any reasonable provinces which aren't completely artificial and horrible.

Now you could decide to split it in three and follow this map, since that's actual divisions. And they would be good for CKII (should you want to divide Slesvig there), because it's medieval divisions, but they are horrible for the game's time frame and just gets worse and worse as time progresses. So you can't really use them. Also note the peninsula called Svans on the bottom right of the map; I'll get back to it later, so use this chance to note where it's positioned.
S%C3%B8nderjylland_i_middelalderen.png



Now lets use the administrative divisions which existed in the EU4 time frame you might say. Well here you have the shires of Slesvig with the counties seen by the numbering. E.g. all the shires starting with 1 belonged to Haderslev county. You can't just divide by counties though, but will need to rather use shire boundaries. And even then you probably need to cut some of them. See how we already are getting into border gore trouble?
Slesvig-counties.png


Here's how I'd divive Slesvig in two if the shires are used as a base. Though it's rough and more shires should probably be divided to better follow the local boundaries between where people interacted with each other. And to be frank 3a, the entirety of 3c and 3d, plus the eastern half of 7e probably should be made part of the eastern, main half. The reason for the split is taken to mainly split at the marshes with the Frisian populations and then starting to move west when you get to the old language border which existed between ~1100 and ~1850. Svans used to be fully Danish too, but already changed to German language in the 1400s, which is why I didn't incorporate it in the main part.

Is this really something you want? Because I don't. And this was even quite coarse and not that realistic, but probably the best way to split it in two.
Slesvig-counties.png




Now we get to the historically correct split. But that is border gore par excellance, and even that isn't the full truth, since the map is general and not in full detail. In the 1500s Slesvig and Holstein were split between the king's three sons. The oldest and hence the future king got a part, and the two others get a part each. One branch died out in the late 1500s and the two other branches (royal and ducal) administered those lands in unison. Now the ducal branch had a fallout with the king in the 1600s and sided with the Swedes which led the Swedes to demand the ducal lands independent in 1658. They remained independent until 1773 due to first being closely related to Sweden and then Russia. In the end the ducal lands were traded with Russia for Oldenburg. The ducal lands were called Slesvig-Holstein-Gottorp.

Anyway we are entering utter mess here. The below map is from 1650 and hence from back when the ducal lands still were a vassal of the king. Yellow is ducal lands, orange is royal lands, and fainth orange the jointly administered lands. The other colours are other vassals, except puke green being Hamburg/Lübeck. Green (bishopric Lübeck) might not have been a vassal either; don't know. As you can see we are in for a ride to border gore land.

Map_SLH-1650.png



Now when the ducal lands went independent in 1658 the commonly administered lands were divided between them (or at least that's how they always are shown on maps). Also since the ducal lands had significant holdings in Holstein too, and those were the ones lasting to 1773, Holstein would have to be split too. The ducal lands in Slesvig were retaken by Denmark when the Great Northern War ended in 1721.

So the way I'd split Slesvig and Holstein, were I forced to make a split (as mentioned I prefer them not split due to the gore), would be the below mess. That'd be historically correct and the only proper way to split it. And having the provinces discontinuous is historical and needed for correctness. Though you could have Slesvig split in 4 and Holstein in 3 to avoid the discontinuousness, but that way be way too many provinces for Slesvig and Holstein so that most certainly shouldn't happen.
Now the green area is the royal part of Slesvig; the red is the royal part of Holstein. Those two provinces would be owned by the Slesvig tag in 1444. Pink is the ducal lands in Slesvig and yellow the ducal lands in Holstein. Those would be owned by a new tag, the Slesvig-Holstein-Gottorp tag, which technically should be a vassal of the current Slesvig tag, but mechanics and game play wise probably should be made a Danish tag instead. For the game files it'd be independent from 1658 to 1773, disappearing after 1773, and the pink province would be taken by Denmark in 1721.
EU4_Danmark.png











Do you now see why Slesvig is best left undivided and alone? Because you can't start looking at dividing it without running into all this border gore and hard to click provinces. Now I'm one of the people who can live with (and in fact don't have a problem with) border gore and hard to click provinces and you might be too, but those discontinuous provinces would have loads of contact points and there is something about that being bad coding wise leading to slowdown. And I most certainly don't want Slesvig divided at the cost of a small slowdown.

Now having Slesvig-Holstein-Gottorp in game would be awesome, and like Ditmarsken it was something giving us headaches for a long time, but it just isn't really feasible province border wise and would lead to utter border gore and discontinuous provinces---or 4 provinces in Slesvig and 3 in Holstein. Both being bad options.



Hence Slesvig should remain undivided; that can of worms should be left unopened. If you want to add more provinces to Denmark, and I can't see arguing for splitting Slesvig if not to add provinces to Denmark, then there are still plenty of places where a new province would make good sense. And where you don't have the utter mess that Slesvig is.
 
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Why on Earth do you want this?
EU4_Danmark.png


Or how else would you split Southern Jutland; especially with a North South split. Splitting it in the middle after the current border is utterly anachronistic and makes zilch sense. That border cut loads of things and only is that way due to how the referendum zones were made. And where it makes little sense for the late 1800s it makes absolutely no sense for the game's time frame.

You seem to care about this issue to a disproportionate extent.
 
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You seem to care about this issue to a disproportionate extent.
I care about having provinces which make sense. And adding more provinces in Slesvig would only be done because one wants to buff Denmark---and then there are many other places where adding provinces can be done in a good way.
There is absolutely no reason to split Southern Jutland except out of some strange idea about splitting as many provinces as possible. And making a north south split along the current border is utter madness, since it makes absolutely no sense.

Also it's a bit rich saying I care to a disproportionate extent given how you've kept raising the issue about possibly having the converter change China too. (And issue I support by the way.) Also is there something wrong in wanting to have the areas you know a lot about look reasonable? I'd wager you also want your country and whereever you have good knowledge to look reasonable and not be an eyesore, like that north south split would be to people knowing how utter unrealistic it is.
 
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I'd like for Smaland to be split into Kalmar and Jonkoping. Any Swedes or Scandinavians agree with this?
I could see the point in splitting Småland, yes.
 
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Why on Earth do you want this?
EU4_Danmark.png


Or how else would you split Southern Jutland; especially with a North South split. Splitting it in the middle after the current border is utterly anachronistic and makes zilch sense. That border cut loads of things and only is that way due to how the referendum zones were made. And where it makes little sense for the late 1800s it makes absolutely no sense for the game's time frame.

- What I don't get is why you're okay with this:
index.php

But you're not okay with this:
VFYBeOx.jpg

Because of this:
EU4_Danmark.png
 
I only get to 15 to 16 provinces; which means 17 to 18 once Holstein is taken. But yes. Don't know how province wise Denmark Norway then compares to the UK. Also doesn't the UK have a naval forcelimits NI too? (Can't remember.) Anyway the Danish fleet was one of the largest and strongest throughout this period. Though obviously it shouldn't dwarf the Royal Navy. But coastline wise I actually think that Denmark Norway (including Skåneland) is comparable to the coastline of the British Isles.

I now went and looked it up and the coastline of present day Denmark (without Greenland) and Norway is more than 2 times that of the UK and Ireland---and that is with wiki noting that the Norwegian fjords aren't fully measured in their count, which otherwise would put the coastline way higher. So having as many ports as the British Isles suddenly doesn't look too out of the way anymore. But no, I don't want Denmark to be OP.

Right now Denmark-Norway without losing provinces is 25 in 1444 (you do need more Danish provinces in order to integrate Norway), UK + Ireland is 30. In the new patch it looks like Denmark-Norway will be 30. DN has about half the development (England has too much), but a player can manage them better than the computer and build shipyards to give a +2/province naval force limit. Others have stated England doesn't have a naval limit modifier.

Come on, that's using 7 year old logic and you know it. With that type of thinking you could say that Russia should have an even larger navy in 1700 because of all that coastline, but you don't because you know most of it is useless which is why Russia is always willing to take over other countries for a warm water port, *cough*Crimea*cough*, *cough*Königsberg*cough*.


I keep going back to the Netherlands like a broken record even though I'm not Dutch. Thanks to their republic they had a middle class and ruled trade (something even modern times should remember). They get a +10% bonus for having a Statist in power, I'm not a Dutch expert, but their naval power was due to that middle class which all monarchs hated but allowed them to invest in the navy that sefs/peasants in other countries didn't have enough money in other countries to do. They have high development which helps naval force limit, but they're incredibly small so it's hard to develop after a while, they get kicked of the HRE after forming which means they're done expanding in Europe.

I'm pro Holland/Netherlands getting a nerf for naval force limit in the NI, monarchs aren't successful in promoting trade, the people are. The Dutch Republic should be responsible for their absolute dominance in trade. Kind of hard to explain to people that still allow for people to be important because their unimportant parent was king/queen because their parent was. Denmark-Norway wasn't important in history as the Dutch because they were a monarchy. In a game that favors monarchy, republics should be the scourge you're constantly trying to stamp out because their efficiency threatens your crown and economy.
 
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