EU4 - Development Diary - 25th of October 2016

[CoolSpin]

Good find. As far as I can see it never was Bergenshus when us Danes held it. And comparing to other fortress names it also makes sense not to have the s. Cant say whether the local dialect had that s or old orthography had it---or perhaps it's just there in Swedish and this is yet another example of Swedish names being used all over Scandinavia.

Anyway Bergenhus itself is a fine name for the province, since the counties there were called Bergenhus (northern and southern). But yes, I agree that the s should be lost. Also does people really say Bergen shus? That just seems unbelieveable due to how wrong and ridiculous that is. That sounds like a drink and not a fortress after all.


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yes, people say bergen shus, and call me wrong when i correct them, even tho i live there.

 

[TheDungen]

Splitting Scania makes plenty of sense. It gives more room for manouver (same as the splits of Småland and Västergötland) and portrays the terrain better. It's also closer to administrative divisions of the time (though of course in 1444 it was split in more parts) and even things like revolts later on.
We have split plenty of rich provinces before, they aren't any less important afterwards .

With that map everyone will replace the castles in elfsborg and kalmar with one in tiohärad.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Unlike the Danish and Norwegian changers Swedens new provinces don't come with any new development (outside the 90-100 autonomy 1 1 1 in Finland).
Denmark and slesvig/Holstein have definitively become stronger.
Also remember Norway has also been buffed - and are very loyal.

Ah. Then it's just rearranging it. Seems fine then.

Splitting Scania makes plenty of sense. It gives more room for manouver (same as the splits of Småland and Västergötland) and portrays the terrain better. It's also closer to administrative divisions of the time (though of course in 1444 it was split in more parts) and even things like revolts later on.
We have split plenty of rich provinces before, they aren't any less important afterwards

Yeah perhaps I've just stared myself blind on a non split Skåne. And as I've said earlier I do like the maneuvering space in that area, since it allows for warring armies to run around there like historically.

Islands are hard to click. You'll still need that navy to beat Denmark now.
In case you're fighting Sweden they even need that navy for Jutland.

Or Sweden does as historical and grabs a North German province (or military access) and then invades Jutland from the south. Historically you couldn't get Copenhagen to budge during war as long as you'd taken no islands. And especially if you hadn't taken Sjælland. That happened as late as 1864 where the government kept stubbornly refusing peace proposals from Prussia until the Prussians managed to cross over to Als and take it.
From the provinces we have seen Denmark will now have 15 provinces (including Slesvig and Holsten) with only 5 of them being isles. The rest being reachable without having to beat the navy. Not sure how much war score taking two 10 provinces will give, but if it gives enough to make the AI give in without losing isles or force the player to do it (through ticking warscore) then that's bad. Jutland for instance often has been occupied for very long time without Copenhagen really caring---or rather without them seeing it in any way being relevant for whether to sue for peace or not.


That's why having more isles is so important. I do get the clickability thing though. Wouldn't splitting Sjælland give two clickable provinces though?
Splitting Fyn into a north and a south province and Lolland into Lolland and Falster is something you also could do, but that would probably give some clickability issues---especially Falster. Though it wouldn't be worse than Bornholm.

Read my last post again, this is in the game.

Had missed that. Though I would say that the base name rather should be Gønge and then Sweden have the Göinge be dynamic, since it doesn't really make sense that if a non Scandi country takes Gønge and Gønge never has been Swedified that non Scandi country starts calling the province Göinge. Though Gønge is far from the only province in Scandinavia with that issue.. By the way has the Jotunheim wasteland changed name to Langfjeld or does wastelands now have dynamic naming too? Since it says Langfjeld in the most recent screenshot.

Lund was the capital of the existing Scania province. Malmö is certainly fitting too, especially later on.
I'd say it's a pretty tough call naming wise, not everything you see is final.

It's indeed is really tough name wise. Though while Lund was really important and indeed the capital of Skåne due to the diocese I think I've come around to liking Malmøhus better, since other Danish provinces aren't named after their capitals either, but rather geographical or administrative areas. So Malmøhus would fit better due to that.
Also did you rename Kolding into Koldinghus? Hope I don't sound like a broken record on this, but Kolding just is really standing out in a bad way due to not fitting at all so I really hope that it can get the proper name of Koldinghus.

Also now that you have added Gønge due to then also have some events dealing with the Gønger doing partisan work against the Swedes?

@Trin Tragula

How come the Ribe province was removed? Could Slesvig be split again with the north being Ribe and the south being Slesvig?

Was it ever split? I don't remember seeing any screenshots from devs with it split.

yes, people say bergen shus, and call me wrong when i correct them, even tho i live there.

Sounds horrible. How can one even things that it's Bergen shus? Reminds me of how my sister in the US met some people who kept arguing that she pronounced Hans Christian Andersen wrong and that she couldn't say H. C. Andersen...:facepalm:

 

[BrokenRifle]

Shouldn't the events that occur in Denmark, Sweden, and Norway still occur when they form Scandinavia? Forming Scandinavia early makes you lose out on a lot of benefits.

this!! i agree so much with this i never saw any reason to form Scandinavia as i would lose my events. and even more now that both denmark and Norway are getting more events. im lesser and lesser interested in forming Scandinavia. also wouldn't it be more interesting if Scandinavia had its own unique idea set that kinda took a bit from all 3 countries so it truly looks like 3 countries unifying under 1 banner.

Forming Scandinavia just feels incredible underwhelming.

 

[DogePatrick]

Hey Paradox, is it possible you could add a feature which allows you to decrease maintenance for individual types of ship, so for example I could decrease maintenance for my heavies but keep my light ships at full maintenance?

 

[TorquemadaStark]

Hey Paradox, is it possible you could add a feature which allows you to decrease maintenance for individual types of ship, so for example I could decrease maintenance for my heavies but keep my light ships at full maintenance?

You can mothball separate fleets, you know...

 

[Metz]

Hey Paradox, is it possible you could add a feature which allows you to decrease maintenance for individual types of ship, so for example I could decrease maintenance for my heavies but keep my light ships at full maintenance?

Mothballing exists, but this feature should be added for armies as well.

 

[Bastardoo]

Mothballing exists, but this feature should be added for armies as well.

Never gonna happen, Johan said so in one of the streams.

 

[Metz]

Anyone think Ceuta and Tangiers are too "long"? Maybe they could cut horizontally to look like small coastal exclaves.

 

[Asakhra]

I think you may have gone a wee bit overboard with new provinces there in Jutland. I mean, Sicily, which in modern times has twice the population of the three regions of Jutland (which bear in mind includes Fyn and part of Slesvig), currently has three provinces to that map's four provinces in Jutland, and with Fyn and the northern half of Slesvig added on, it's really more like 3 to 5.5. Central Greece, a region with only half a million less people than Sicily (so, still two million more than Jutland), has to scrape by with two provinces.

 

[Furleppe]

I think you may have gone a wee bit overboard with new provinces there in Jutland. I mean, Sicily, which in modern times has twice the population of the three regions of Jutland (which bear in mind includes Fyn and part of Slesvig), currently has three provinces to that map's four provinces in Jutland, and with Fyn and the northern half of Slesvig added on, it's really more like 3 to 5.5. Central Greece, a region with only half a million less people than Sicily (so, still two million more than Jutland), has to scrape by with two provinces.

There are still areas in the game that could use some map lifting. Just like you said South Italy, Greece but maybe also Scotland, England, Balkans etc

 

[Wagonlitz]

(which bear in mind includes Fyn and part of Slesvig)

Fyn has never been part of Jutland. And Region Southern Denmark (which has an abomination of a name, but that's something else) is headquartered in Odense on Fyn IIRC. Anyway it's not a Jutlandic region.

And why count Slesvig separately? It's part of Jutland and has always been. That it was an authonomous part of the kingdom (sometimes de facto independent) doesn't change that it was and to this day still is part of Jutland. (Though, granted, many people are ignorant and don't know that Southern Slesvig is part of Jutland today too; anything that ignorance doesn't change that it is or that it most certainly was during the time period.)


Also I would love to see more provinces in Southern Italy and Greece; why not argue for more provinces there instead of trying to limit the amount of provinces elsewhere?
(And Denmark sorely needed those provinces to act even remotely historical; we were equal of Sweden and until the loss of Skåneland quite above Sweden when Norway was included too. That's not something you have been able to see in game partially because our province count has been so low that we practically could be annexed in one war.)

 

[BrokenRifle]

I think you may have gone a wee bit overboard with new provinces there in Jutland. I mean, Sicily, which in modern times has twice the population of the three regions of Jutland (which bear in mind includes Fyn and part of Slesvig), currently has three provinces to that map's four provinces in Jutland, and with Fyn and the northern half of Slesvig added on, it's really more like 3 to 5.5. Central Greece, a region with only half a million less people than Sicily (so, still two million more than Jutland), has to scrape by with two provinces.

Italy is still one of the best dev places in europe and they are filthy rich.. the denmark buffs + provinces increases are good as denmark is simply so easy to snowball. i play Italian minors a lot simply because a formed Italy is scary.. great idea set one of the best in europe imo and insanely good provinces with lots of trade influence. not all changes are made for historical pop accuracy. and lets not forget italy is surrounded by mountains and can have a very high fleet limit making them hard to invade by sea if you cant enter the mountains


i dont see the problem with making denmark stronger and giving them more provinces to emulate the rivalry that Sweden and Denmark had because it is now i just see nothing but a stomp.

 

[Asakhra]

Fyn has never been part of Jutland. And Region Southern Denmark (which has an abomination of a name, but that's something else) is headquartered in Odense on Fyn IIRC. Anyway it's not a Jutlandic region.

And why count Slesvig separately? It's part of Jutland and has always been. That it was an authonomous part of the kingdom (sometimes de facto independent) doesn't change that it was and to this day still is part of Jutland. (Though, granted, many people are ignorant and don't know that Southern Slesvig is part of Jutland today too; anything that ignorance doesn't change that it is or that it most certainly was during the time period.)


Also I would love to see more provinces in Southern Italy and Greece; why not argue for more provinces there instead of trying to limit the amount of provinces elsewhere?
(And Denmark sorely needed those provinces to act even remotely historical; we were equal of Sweden and until the loss of Skåneland quite above Sweden when Norway was included too. That's not something you have been able to see in game partially because our province count has been so low that we practically could be annexed in one war.)

When I said "includes Fyn and part of Slesvig," I was referring to the in-game provinces that cover the three statistical regions of Denmark that include part of Jutland, rather than the actual real-world regions themselves. That's how I arrived at my somewhat wonky figure of 5.5 provinces: four in northern and central Jutland, plus Fyn, plus around half the area covered by the Slesvig province. If you cut out Fyn, the ratio becomes even worse: ~2 million in 4.5 provinces as to Sicily's 5 million in three or Central Greece's 4.5 million in 2.5.

My problem is more that we've never really seen any province increases in Greece, the Balkans, or Italy, despite a lot of people asking for and suggesting them. I am a great proponent of more provinces, but an enormous amount of petitioning to Paradox had to happen before, for instance, the massive old province of Macedonia was split into two - even though there are significant cultural differences between the two halves. Incidentally, the Macedonia region as a whole has a total population of ~4.75 million, currently represented in-game by three provinces.

What I'm arguing, essentially, is that I'd like some more attention paid to southern Europe. I'd argue that the region as a whole is quite badly represented - there are all sorts of things missing at the moment that should be there, from Venetian colonies in the Morea to Byzantine islands to Crusader bastions and Genoese outposts on the Asia Minor coast, that are not just under-represented but entirely absent from the map. And if you want to talk about nations lacking in power and being swallowed in one gulp, Albania starts the game as a one-province minor at war with an Ottoman Empire that crushes it in a year or two. In real life, that war went on for thirty-odd years, and the League of Lezhe was composed of, like, seven or eight wholly independent states in alliance.

By all means, put more provinces and give more attention to Denmark. It most certainly was an important state! But southern Europe kind of needs fixing NOW, so I guess I'm just questioning putting this much focus on Denmark at this very moment when there's so much that's either missing or broken in, for instance, the Balkans.

 

[Wagonlitz]

That's how I arrived at my somewhat wonky figure of 5.5 provinces: four in northern and central Jutland, plus Fyn, plus around half the area covered by the Slesvig province. If you cut out Fyn, the ratio becomes even worse: ~2 million in 4.5 provinces as to Sicily's 5 million in three or Central Greece's 4.5 million in 2.5.

I might be misunderstanding you and you mean the parts of Jutland which today are part of Denmark. But that doesn't makes sense. Both since this isn't the present day and because that'd be 4.5 and not 5.5 provinces.

As mentioned all of Slesvig is part of Jutland and always has been. Slesvig and Sønderjylland (Southern Jutland) are synonymous and refers to exactly the same area. That the lower half of it has been German since 1864 doesn't change that. Also there are only 5 provinces in Jutland unless I can't count: Nordjylland, Østjylland, Vestjylland, Kolding(hus), and Slesvig.

Also with development existing province density isn't directly tied to population anymore.

In real life, that war went on for thirty-odd years

And Denmark and Sweden were pretty much at war constantly for 1000 years. With Denmark having the upper hand for most of the time pre the 1650s. And together with Norway equaling Sweden after the 1650s. That is something which is completely lacking in game and it completely throws off the Scandi dynamics. You can't have the historical back and forth in Scandinavia without a decent Denmark.

I'm just questioning putting this much focus on Denmark at this very moment when there's so much that's either missing or broken in, for instance, the Balkans.

Because they've been buffing Sweden for several patches. Sweden e.g. got three provinces a few patches ago. (Those provinces were warranted, but it doesn't change that Sweden was buffed.) And Denmark has been too weak compared to Sweden since release. If you do work on one you need to do work on the other too; and now they finally got round to do work on Denmark. Which is the first time since release that has happened---and the second time since release of EU3. (Though Blekinge might have been added in one of the EU3 expansions; not completely sure when that came.)

But I fully agree that Greece, Asia Minor, etc. could use some love too.

 

[Dakka]

My problem is more that we've never really seen any province increases in Greece, the Balkans, or Italy, despite a lot of people asking for and suggesting them.

That's just not true, Northern Italy received a fairly large face lift back in Art of War(?)

 

[Asakhra]

I might be misunderstanding you and you mean the parts of Jutland which today are part of Denmark. But that doesn't makes sense. Both since this isn't the present day and because that'd be 4.5 and not 5.5 provinces.

As mentioned all of Slesvig is part of Jutland and always has been. Slesvig and Sønderjylland (Southern Jutland) are synonymous and refers to exactly the same area. That the lower half of it has been German since 1864 doesn't change that. Also there are only 5 provinces in Jutland unless I can't count: Nordjylland, Østjylland, Vestjylland, Kolding(hus), and Slesvig.

I think I'm just not communicating this very well, but the region my province figure is one province higher than yours is that the population data I found for Danish Jutland included Fyn, so I was including that in the province tally as well. You are right in that Danish Jutland itself would be 4.5 provinces, but since the data I had was drawn directly from the Danish regions, and for some reason whoever drew those regions up lumped Fyn with southern Jutland, I included Fyn as well. Does that make more sense? Sorry.

e: I suppose I hadn't really looked at it from the perspective of the balance between Denmark and Sweden, and you are quite right, then. But I would still argue that the fact that Albania not only under-performs immensely but is missing almost all of the nations that made it up is kind of a crisis of representation. Something to be addressed immediately.

I don't know. Sometimes I feel that northern Europe gets way too much focus and attention in Paradox games. That's probably why I'm just a bit jaded about even more attention being paid to a region in northern Europe when there's still so much work to be done elsewhere. You make really good points about Denmark's balance against Sweden, but I still feel a bit put out that whole countries are still missing from the map while one country is getting a fish market event chain.

Again, I apologise if I'm being unfair.

 

[Metz]

Suggestions:

1) Italy: Split Novara into Novara and Alessandria. Split Romagna to turn it into Bologna and Ravenna. Add Benevento in the south as an independent bishopric.

2) South Balkans: Split Epirus into Arta and Ionnina with Arta being the Despotate of Epirus and it being given the Cephalonia island as well connected by a strait. Split Achaea into Kalamata and Patras. Albania could be 3 provinces with one belonging to Albania, one to the Ottomans, and one to Venice.

3) Netherlands: Needs way more provinces. Friesland and Gelre need to be split. There are a lot of historical maps to use as guidelines for that.

4) Iberia: Add Malaga to Granada by splitting the Granada provinces and increase Granada's development in all provinces.

5) Britain: Wales needs and extra province. Add Isle of Mann and make it connected to the mainland via a strait. Scotland needs and extra western provinces.

 

[Trin Tragula]

My problem is more that we've never really seen any province increases in Greece, the Balkans or Italy.

In fact no region has has new provinces added as often as the Balkans. They have received some in every map update except the very first one (pre-art of war when a patch added the Swahili states).
Italy had their province count doubled a couple of patches ago. Greece is indeed rarer ( since game they have gotten release they have mostly has some additions like adding more islands such as Chios and Euboea) mostly because they started out a lot more detailed than most other areas at release. Now that we have added a couple of thousand provinces however you could argue it's time for Greece soon.
We often add stuff to the map and the Balkans are more or less one of the greatest beneficiaries of that. There are plenty of other regions in the world that could also benefit from more detail however. Playing the "please don't add X before y" game is not the best way to argue for a specific inclusion.
I suggest making a list of specific changes and posting those in the suggestions forum. Each thing is evaluated on its own and when a specific region is due we review suggestions for that region again. I think many forumites can attest to that by now

Albania starts the game as a one-province minor at war with an Ottoman Empire that crushes it in a year or two. In real life, that war went on for thirty-odd years, and the League of Lezhe was composed of, like, seven or eight wholly independent states in alliance..

Even with a split Albania I cannot ever see us adding the individual members of the league of Lezhe. They would be much smaller than the average HRE state and that's on the lower side of clickability as it is.
Wholly independent states is also pushing it a bit descriptionwise IMO but they'd have to be in the game to function correctly that I can agree with

 

[Metz]

@Trin Tragula

Is the plan to focus on a specific country (and region by proxy) per patch? Johan once said he'd like each country to have their own unique government. Hopefully this means maybe a government type of Denmark called Kalmar monarchy which deals with trying to maintain Scandinavia together.

I know that doing so many changes in one go will not be good for interest in the game in the long term. Adding provinces in different patches makes players come back to play different countries for new experiences.

However, it would be nice to have feedback on our map expanding suggestions. This way we can discard unpractical and far-fetched ideas and focus on suggestions that can actually help the game. A pending issue we can conclude is probably Albania and the Netherlands thus far. Albania in 1444 represents abstractly a unified country caused via the League of Lezhe. However being a OPM makes it feel underwhelming. It could do with some revamping. Netherlands also could use with expansion in Gelre and Frisia. Hopefully by proxy the Duchy of Julich is also added.