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EU4 - Development Diary - 4th of June 2019

Hello again! In previous weeks we’ve shown you revamped maps of Italy and German and the revitalized political setups in these regions. Today will be no different as we delve into the land of cheese, wine, and élan!

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The most striking thing you’ll notice about this new setup is the return of the French “vassal swarm”. The Duchies of Orleans, Bourbonnais, Auvergne, Armagnac, and Foix will be returning to the game alongside their glorious but rarely-seen Hundred Years War unit models. But how will you balance this, I preemptively hear you asking? Won’t France need extra diplomatic relations to cope with this? Won’t France be horrendously overpowered in the early game? Fear not, for we have answers and solutions - which I am not going to reveal today.

So, what's up with balkanized France? The reality is that in 1444, the Kingdom of France was quite decentralized. The Hundred Years War had forced the King to enact new taxes to finance his troops which led to several revolts and conspiracies from its nobility. That conflict continued for most of the second half of the 15th century. Historically the crown prevailed and managed to bring France toward centralization and absolutism, but in EU4 it won't be a given. Hence we decided to make that part of the French gameplay by representing the strongest Dukes and Counts as vassals in 1444.
  • Orléans was the strongest of them and often the leader of the resistance against the Crown. The head of the House of Orléans in 1444 was Charles the First, a cousin of the King who spent 25 years in English captivity. His son Louis would historically become King of France later on following the extinction of the main Valois branch.
  • The Duchy of Bourbon (or Bourbonnais) is held by Jean II, an up and coming noble that illustrated himself in combat the same year our game starts. Historically, he sided with the King's party, but changed side later on after losing a prestigious office.
  • Armagnac is in a tight spot. The result of CK2-style border gore, his possessions are spread across central and southern France. Its leader, Jean IV, recently took part in a failed revolt against the King and is kept on a tight leash.
  • Foix is held by Count Gaston IV, also General Lieutenant of the French Armies of Gascony and Guyenne.

You’ll also notice that France and its subjects (nominal and otherwise) have a handful of additional provinces. I mentioned in a previous dev diary a desire to include Foix, Carcassonne, Toulon, and La Marche. All of these have made it in to this iteration of the map. Toulon felt especially valuable due to its status as a major base of naval operations for France later in the timeframe, and as you’ll see in an upcoming dev diary the establishment of this great arsenal is an important part of more than one new mission tree. We also found room for Forez, which allows us to represent the divide between the crown and Bourbon territories. Blois beefs up the Duchy of Orleans, the most powerful of the French vassal states and often a thorn in the side of the French kings.

To better represent the divide between western (Ducal Burgundy) and eastern (Free HRE Country Burgundy), we added the province of Salins and its large salt mine. This lead us to split Burgundy in two, but instead of following the Imperial divide we elected instead to make two balanced states with one holding land on both sides, making any division an imperfect choice that is sure to spark more conflict in the future.

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Another addition to the political setup is the city-state of Geneva, here represented in 1444 as a vassal of Savoy. Geneva was subject to Savoy until 1524, and up to that point had a troubled relationship with its overlord. The House of Savoy repeatedly attempted to increase their control over the city to little avail except to alienate its citizens and foster a desire for independence. Local authorities sought to ally with the Swiss cantons, and the city would eventually join the Swiss Confederacy. In addition, the old province of Savoy has been split between Anessi and Ciamber.

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Moving further away from France, we’ve also made some changes to the Low Countries. I’ve spoken before regarding our concerns about adding provinces to this region. We want it to retain the feeling of being a highly developed and densely populated region, and adding new provinces would force us to split development to the point that it might lose that feeling. We have however managed to squeeze in two additional provinces: ‘s-Hertogenbosch has been cut off from Breda, and Rysel adds a province to Flanders. We’ve also revised the Utrecht-Frisia border to reflect historical divisions of the Dutch provinces. Speaking of Frisia, we have at long last added Frisian culture to the game. You’ll find Frisians inhabiting the provinces of Friesland, Groningen, and Ostfriesland. We’ve also redrawn the area map, doing away with the “Netherlands” area and adding a distinction between North and South Brabant.

Last week I promised a look at the Balkans alongside France, but we’ve decided instead to dedicate an entire dev diary to this topic. Expect to see that in a couple of weeks, as our next dev diary will cover some of the new mission trees in the French and Dutch region. Until then, let us know what you think of the new map setup as well as which mission trees you want to see next week.
 
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@Scorpene I really like your idea of temporary buffs for a nation, like you mentioned Elan between 1460 -1525, add a lot of flavor to the game; imagine Gustav of Sweden buff, Spanish Tercio temporary buff, Napoleon buff, etc; something that make you feel you are in the one of the picks of the nation you are playing, i hope the Devs pick your idea.
 
@Scorpene I really like your idea of temporary buffs for a nation, like you mentioned Elan between 1460 -1525, add a lot of flavor to the game; imagine Gustav of Sweden buff, Spanish Tercio temporary buff, Napoleon buff, etc; something that make you feel you are in the one of the picks of the nation you are playing, i hope the Devs pick your idea.
Like the nation specefic buffs some ages have?
 
I lived in Nantes, and i support it. Nantes is not similar in culture to Britanny. And "britanny" is not similar from Rennes to Brest, one is more inclined on culture, the other on fishing. Even the languages are slightly different. However Guérande can be considered Breton though. Now, you can add the 6th province in this area :). Dont thanks me.
I just want to tell that even if it is interesting and I don't know if you are truly suggesting that we should replace Nantes buy Guérandes , we shouldn't use modern view to apply to what was in the 15th. So except if you have some knowledge about 15th century Nantes and its surroundings I'm afraid it is not relevant.. Sure Nantes is different from Finistère but it was under Brittany control and was more important that Guérande imo because a biggest city. And Rennes beign more cultural i think i t is quite recent. However maybe culture should be different but I don't know, as you said Guérande region was probably more briton so maybe but gameplay wise it is probably better to have one more province briton. Anyway it always difficult in a game with "boolean" culture to decide the culture of a province which was geographically between to cultures, culture isn't unifome even under the same name too bad we can't see that in EU4 with for example 54% briton 46% something else.
Overall I don't think Brittany need another province.

About language I'm interested, are you talking about small variation in briton or that in French they have some different words coming from patois ?
 
This has been suggested quite a while back, at numerous occasions (see e.g.)
Back in early EU4, Savoie had Burgundian culture, this was later changed to Piedmontese (Italian group).
The culture in this province was criticized, as it was for the Romandy provinces (French speaking Switzerland: Vaud and Valais/Wallis in the game), which were under "Swiss" a Germanic culture, and Calais (Flemish, recently switched to Wallonian).

The cultures in Savoie, now apparently divided between Anessi [sic] and Ciamber [sic], the most adequate Arpitan. I suggest the addition of a new culture to the French culture groupe : Arpitan. The provinces of Lyonnais (new, i.e. excluding Forez), Savoie (i.e. Annecy [recte] and Chambéry [recte], Geneva, Vaud and Valais would belong to that group.

Why is this adequate?
Well for starters here is concise excerpt from wikipedia on the Duchy of Savoy:
On 19 February 1416 Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor, made the County of Savoy an independent duchy, with Amadeus VIII as the first duke. Straddling the Alps, Savoy lay within two competing spheres of influence, a French sphere and a North Italian one. At the time of the Renaissance, Savoy showed only modest development. Its towns were few and small. Savoy derived its subsistence from agriculture.The geographic location of Savoy was also of military importance. During the interminable wars between France and Spain over the control of northern Italy, Savoy was important to France because it provided access to Italy. Savoy was important to Spain because it served as a buffer between France and the Spanish held lands in Italy. In 1563 Emmanuel Philibert moved the capital from Chambéry to Turin, which was less vulnerable to French interference.
Vaud was annexed by Bern in 1536
, and Savoy officially ceded Vaud to Bern in the Treaty of Lausanne of 30 October 1564.
In 1714, as a consequence of the War of the Spanish Succession, Savoy was technically subsumed into the Kingdom of Sicily, then (after that island was traded to Austria for Sardinia) the Kingdom of Sardinia from 1720. While the heads of the House of Savoy were known as the Kings of Sardinia, Turin remained their capital.

So to summarise, Amadeus VIII (Amédée VIII) was French-culture nobleman of Savoyard extraction (his mother was a Berry noble).
The Duchy of Savoy was essentially ruled by a Gallo-Romance (French if you will) speaking House, which had holdings around the Geneva lake (i.e. French speaking Switzerland and Savoy) as well as trans-alpine holdings in Aoste (French speaking) and Piedmont (which was Piedmontese speaking, a Gallo-Italic language, which is remarkable and very interesting if you care for linguistics...).

Regarding gameplay, missions and others mechanics, I suggest that Savoy get to choose between a French or Italian path, similarly to Navarra which can/could pick between forming Spain or France. Perhaps an event in 1563 to change culture (from Arpitan [French] to Piedmontese [Italian]), or triggered as soon as either Savoie province is lost, France rivaled, or Vaud lost etc. would properly image this shift in the game.

Regarding the new Geneva tag
For Geneva, changing the culture to one in the French group (ideally Arpitan, otherwise Burgundian should suffice) seems necessary. Indeed, John Calvin (Jean Calvin), born in France, is an essential aspect to the young Republic (I sincerely hope Calvinism events and a de facto Centre of Reformation are linked with the new tag). Seeing from the name of the Genevois ruler in 1444 apparent in the screenshot, the culture of the tag seems to be Swiss (Germanic). This seems inadequate and would break immersion.

I realize that some of the game mechanic reason for the Swiss culture is to help Switzerland with unrest from a culture in another culture group. I see two ways to go around this so as to enable Swiss AI to manage such expansion: 1. Switzerland starting with Arpitan as an accepted culture 2. Switzerland getting an extra accepted culture slot in it's ideas 3. An event accepting Arpitan for free when playing Switzerland and Vaud + Valais annexed; 4. a combination of the aforementioned could also work.

I hope that this brief information, background and suggestions are helpful. Let me know what you think !
 
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About language I'm interested, are you talking about small variation in briton or that in French they have some different words coming from patois ?

Upper Brittany (the Western part) was Gallo speaking by 1444, which is a Gallo-Romance (French) language. Lower Brittany was Breton speaking (Celtic language). This was long before any standard French being imposed on the whole country and it's why Breton is mostly spoken by small minorities (as a second language) in Lower Brittany.

It could be interesting to reflect that by having Western Brittany belong to the Celtic group and Eastern Brittany belong to the French group.
 
It could be interesting to reflect that by having Western Brittany belong to the Celtic group and Eastern Brittany belong to the French group.

Culture isn't just language. Breton has a very good homogeneity in itself in spite of 2 different languages, and it rightfully belongs with the french group for cultural reasons
 
I just want to tell that even if it is interesting and I don't know if you are truly suggesting that we should replace Nantes buy Guérandes , we shouldn't use modern view to apply to what was in the 15th. So except if you have some knowledge about 15th century Nantes and its surroundings I'm afraid it is not relevant.. Sure Nantes is different from Finistère but it was under Brittany control and was more important that Guérande imo because a biggest city.

What i meant is that we could have two Provinces, if the Dev dont want to add Léon, Guérande (between Vannes and Nantes) and Nantes, more focused around the Loire and Clisson. What's more, Nantes was Under Britanny control… For 60 years, in the time frame. When the UP with France became real, the economic, cultural and crafting was way more focused on Saint Nazaire and Tours, than on any link with Britanny.

And Rennes beign more cultural i think i t is quite recent. However maybe culture should be different but I don't know, as you said Guérande region was probably more briton so maybe but gameplay wise it is probably better to have one more province briton. Anyway it always difficult in a game with "boolean" culture to decide the culture of a province which was geographically between to cultures, culture isn't unifome even under the same name too bad we can't see that in EU4 with for example 54% briton 46% something else.

It was a mistake on my part. I translated the French word into English. I was not speaking about "culture" but about farming. Sailors in Britanny (for the Navy or fishing industry) were real… Along the coast. The interior of the peninsula was entirely different from the picture some people take from the St Malo Corsairs. It is a very recent misconception.
My point was to say we could have 6 provinces in Britanny, which would allow us to have 2 states (of 3 provinces) that would somehow depict the différences between Rennes / Brest.

Overall I don't think Brittany need another province.


About language I'm interested, are you talking about small variation in briton or that in French they have some different words coming from patois ?

About language, what we currently call Breton is not what Breton was spoken centuries ago in Britanny. As many languages, including Occitan(+Arpitan), there were variation. We should ask someone with a degree in it, that could confirm or not what i'm saying, but "Rennes" Breton, was closer to French / Latin, and "Brest" Breton to what we would name incorrectly "Celt". Now those are small variation, juste here to explain that having two Britanny isnt based on no-reality.

But tbh, am 99% sure that France will get missions about PUing Britanny and Provence, as it should have been done for years now. So our concern wont be a valid topic in most of the games played.
 
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Indeed, I don't know how that "i" went missing, it definitely was there when I added that name, and it is now back.

Also, on the topic of Savoy, it may interest you to know that the Duchy starts Italian, but Annecy and Chambéry start as French, and there will be an easy way for the Savoyards to become French if they so please (more on that later ;) ).

Would it be possible to switch Geneva, Vaud and Valais (I believe the German name Wallis used in game) to a French culture ? Arpitan would make for a great introduction in the French group, given that the German group just got Frisian.
 
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As people mentioned before, I think having Valais split up like shown on this map (all my Paint skills on display ;) ) would be favourable. A new tag "Die Sieben Zenden" aka. "The Seven Tenth" or just "Upper Valais" would be a great extension. It could have a similar position as the "Grey league" in Graubünden, being a strong ally of the SWI or even a vasal of her. Furthermore, this split is crucial as it still represents the border between German- and Frenchspeaking Valais/Wallis of today.

Below the inspiration for the map from Wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_des_Wallis#Neuzeit) (german)
View attachment 486983
This is somewhat excessive, at that rate every single European province will be further divided threefold. Arguably you could have over 20 provinces in current-day Switzerland by that logic, and that would become unplayable.

France just got new provinces in 1.25. No chance regional balance won't be out of whack.

Indeed, this is another general issue which seems to be overlooked is development; development should be reduced to compensate for all these new provinces:
for instance, current Province of Savoie (around 16 development if memory serves), should be divided into 10 + 6 (e.g.) in Annecy and Chambéry, anything else is just going to make playing in Western Europe an absolute nightmare, and further break game balance.


Adding provinces to Spain and Portugal? Nah, no way. Irrelevant, poor countries, who even cares.

Adding provinces to areas with a decent amount of Provinces? Count me in ladz.

They added plenty of provinces to Iberia in the previous map update...

Why Anessi and not Annecy ? o_O

We get the same ridiculous answer every time that for game purposes they don't want to incorporate the Savoyard identity of Savoy. I guess Anessi is some ridiculous invented translation of Annecy into Italian...It's not even called like that in piedmontese...
 
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Isn't there something wrong with the way subjects work, if decentralizing a nation and taking away their land to vassals makes them stronger?

it seems to work like that irl
but there shouldn't be base force limit and income, but the smaller the realm would be the lesser minimum autonomy should provinces have
 
Marcher lords usually had greater amounts of autonomy and thus could raise bigger armies.
 
if you move the "Nobility" estate to a special "Chevalerie" estates that gives that bonus (scaling of course) instead of 20% manpower recovery for french culture (I could see other modifications being relevant like the estate spawned general enjoying +1 shock) maybe it'd be interesting.
This is actually a great idea, it gives the player agency in how they want to manage their country, gives France some flavour and is far more historical and organic than a fixed bonus.

France has weak ideas (compare it to Poland), for a nation that kept fighting for the whole time frame of the game, and didnt stop existing at the end of it.
I wouldn't say France has weak ideas, its one of the best sets in the game, i would argue instead that maybe Poland is a bit too militarily strong.

Elan is just perfect between 1460 (end of HYW) and 1525 (Battle of Pavie).
Well, you do have a point.

What could be interesting would be to give a 10% Morale Buff + 15% Artillery , as for all the timeframe (from Bureau to Napoleon) it was well used by France.
Completely agree.

About Vauban Fortification, this need to be reworked in full. "−20% Fort maintenance" is just a non sense. Vauban should give : Big buff in Fort defence, big buff in siege ability.
Maybe, depends on what you mean by "big".

+2 tolerance of heretics/heathen "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité": This idea has no place here in a set focussed on monarchic France. If France goes Revolutionary, then sure, they should have the idea (maybe the switch in governement form also means a switch of ideas).
You are right, however i doubt Paradox would bother giving new Republican idea sets for revolutionary nations, but if they did France would gain a lot of flavour potential.

a naval idea based on French corsairs giving a boost in privateer efficiency?
Something like "Guerre de course" - +25% privateer efficiency would make more sense than the tolerance idea. The philosophe -10% tech cost could then just be moved to the last slot.
Fantastic idea! The French corsairs were the scourge of the Atlantic.
 
Ayo, this is great! Now pdx just needs to re-add start game wars, which will make the 100 y/w more difficult for England to win rather than allying rivals around France and easily swarming them. I remember when One night in Paris was so much more difficult. I spend endless restarts trying to defeat France, now its way to easy.
 
Have you even seen the list of inaccuracies piling up the last few weeks?

Ironically changing something to be "more accurate" only seems to inspire more claims that it's inaccurate since with a finite amount of space on the map it's impossible to have every border be accurate
 
I am happy to see that models again