• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

EU4 - Development Diary - 4th of June 2019

Hello again! In previous weeks we’ve shown you revamped maps of Italy and German and the revitalized political setups in these regions. Today will be no different as we delve into the land of cheese, wine, and élan!

dd_france.png


The most striking thing you’ll notice about this new setup is the return of the French “vassal swarm”. The Duchies of Orleans, Bourbonnais, Auvergne, Armagnac, and Foix will be returning to the game alongside their glorious but rarely-seen Hundred Years War unit models. But how will you balance this, I preemptively hear you asking? Won’t France need extra diplomatic relations to cope with this? Won’t France be horrendously overpowered in the early game? Fear not, for we have answers and solutions - which I am not going to reveal today.

So, what's up with balkanized France? The reality is that in 1444, the Kingdom of France was quite decentralized. The Hundred Years War had forced the King to enact new taxes to finance his troops which led to several revolts and conspiracies from its nobility. That conflict continued for most of the second half of the 15th century. Historically the crown prevailed and managed to bring France toward centralization and absolutism, but in EU4 it won't be a given. Hence we decided to make that part of the French gameplay by representing the strongest Dukes and Counts as vassals in 1444.
  • Orléans was the strongest of them and often the leader of the resistance against the Crown. The head of the House of Orléans in 1444 was Charles the First, a cousin of the King who spent 25 years in English captivity. His son Louis would historically become King of France later on following the extinction of the main Valois branch.
  • The Duchy of Bourbon (or Bourbonnais) is held by Jean II, an up and coming noble that illustrated himself in combat the same year our game starts. Historically, he sided with the King's party, but changed side later on after losing a prestigious office.
  • Armagnac is in a tight spot. The result of CK2-style border gore, his possessions are spread across central and southern France. Its leader, Jean IV, recently took part in a failed revolt against the King and is kept on a tight leash.
  • Foix is held by Count Gaston IV, also General Lieutenant of the French Armies of Gascony and Guyenne.

You’ll also notice that France and its subjects (nominal and otherwise) have a handful of additional provinces. I mentioned in a previous dev diary a desire to include Foix, Carcassonne, Toulon, and La Marche. All of these have made it in to this iteration of the map. Toulon felt especially valuable due to its status as a major base of naval operations for France later in the timeframe, and as you’ll see in an upcoming dev diary the establishment of this great arsenal is an important part of more than one new mission tree. We also found room for Forez, which allows us to represent the divide between the crown and Bourbon territories. Blois beefs up the Duchy of Orleans, the most powerful of the French vassal states and often a thorn in the side of the French kings.

To better represent the divide between western (Ducal Burgundy) and eastern (Free HRE Country Burgundy), we added the province of Salins and its large salt mine. This lead us to split Burgundy in two, but instead of following the Imperial divide we elected instead to make two balanced states with one holding land on both sides, making any division an imperfect choice that is sure to spark more conflict in the future.

dd_geneva.png


Another addition to the political setup is the city-state of Geneva, here represented in 1444 as a vassal of Savoy. Geneva was subject to Savoy until 1524, and up to that point had a troubled relationship with its overlord. The House of Savoy repeatedly attempted to increase their control over the city to little avail except to alienate its citizens and foster a desire for independence. Local authorities sought to ally with the Swiss cantons, and the city would eventually join the Swiss Confederacy. In addition, the old province of Savoy has been split between Anessi and Ciamber.

dd_ned.png


Moving further away from France, we’ve also made some changes to the Low Countries. I’ve spoken before regarding our concerns about adding provinces to this region. We want it to retain the feeling of being a highly developed and densely populated region, and adding new provinces would force us to split development to the point that it might lose that feeling. We have however managed to squeeze in two additional provinces: ‘s-Hertogenbosch has been cut off from Breda, and Rysel adds a province to Flanders. We’ve also revised the Utrecht-Frisia border to reflect historical divisions of the Dutch provinces. Speaking of Frisia, we have at long last added Frisian culture to the game. You’ll find Frisians inhabiting the provinces of Friesland, Groningen, and Ostfriesland. We’ve also redrawn the area map, doing away with the “Netherlands” area and adding a distinction between North and South Brabant.

Last week I promised a look at the Balkans alongside France, but we’ve decided instead to dedicate an entire dev diary to this topic. Expect to see that in a couple of weeks, as our next dev diary will cover some of the new mission trees in the French and Dutch region. Until then, let us know what you think of the new map setup as well as which mission trees you want to see next week.
 
Last edited:
  • 3Like
Reactions:
France was a vast militaristic power, both on ground and on the sea
And France's vast development and powerful economy will allow for France to dominate both on land and the sea even without having top tier ideas on both these fields.

Portugal was not (except early game).
While mid to late game Portugal is absolutely nowhere near as powerful as U.K, France of Spain, their problem was their small size, tiny population and terrible economy. Considering their circumstances, they punched way above their weight, having defeated in battle other much larger and wealthier nations consistently.

NL was rapidly crushed by UK
Too be fair, being defeated by "the best" isn't exactly surprising.
Also, fighting 4 wars (and winning 2 of them) before being defeated isn't exactly being rapidly crushed in my book.

The influence and might of NL (and Portugal) was not on the military forces of their navies, late game, but on their trade power and finances, and of course, their political influence
While one could make a case for the Netherlands's might coming for their financial skills, this was not also true for Portugal.
Portugal was never really a particulary wealthy nation, nor were they skilled at trade. Yes they did manage to mass large amounts of wealth during the early 1500's with Indian Ocean trade and the early 1700's with Brazilian gold and gems, they proved to be very incompetent at managing their wealth and quickly squandered everything and went back to borderline bankruptcy (Same with Spain, which managed to go bankrupt 3 times despite being the only true global empire with large amount of American wealth).
Portugal did a great job at establishing a trade empire (by conquering several imporant coastal cities all across the world before any other European tried it, being the first nation in the world capable of Projecting power intercontinentally due to their high quality navy)
But they did a terrible job at actually running their empire, the "Casa da India" was already running on a deficit by 1530, before the Portuguese started losing their holdings or even having competition in the East.
Portugal in Eu4 shouldn't be good at profiting from trade, it should be good at actually establishing a trade empire spawning all continents as fast as possible (Good luck trying to beat vijayanagar as Portugal in 1505)

but the best quality ship late game were and should be French and Brits ones.
I see no reason to keep Spain out of the equation, afterall they did crush the British in one of the most impressive naval battles in history, Cartagena of the Indies, 1741.
It's hard to compare France and Spain in the late game since they were often fighting alongside eachoter, and it's also hard to compare France to Portugal since they never had significant naval battles, only minor skirmishes.
Sure, you could argue that France in the XVIII century was on the same league (or above) as Spain, Netherlands and Portugal, but let's be honest, every country unlocks all ideas by the mid XVI century, you can't really make France dominate the late game without dominating the mid game too (Unless with Age bonus, which France absurdly doesn't get any in the Age of Revolutions, despite literally being the staple of the Age of Revolutions. Meanwhile Prussia does get *another* substantial military buff in the age of Revolutions, despite Napoleon had crushed Prussia).

And finally, this is a videogame, certainly not one where balance is a priority sure, but I think ideas should try to bring about some historical balance that can't be modelled otherwise. The Carib tribes have ridiculously overpowered military ideas, but nobody cares because they are so weak anyway that it doesn't matter, its understandable they need them to actually be a moderate threat at all. Im fine with poor/small nations who punched above their weight having strong ideas.
But when considering one of the most (if not the most) OP nations in the game, maybe giving them the best ideas on every field compared to their weaker rivals is just an unnecessary overkill.
 
Last edited:
While mid to late game Portugal is absolutely nowhere near as powerful as U.K, France of Spain, their problem was their small size, tiny population and terrible economy. Considering their circumstances, they punched way above their weight, having defeated in battle other much larger and wealthier nations consistently.
when did they beat much larger and wealthier nations?
 
And France's vast development and powerful economy will allow for France to dominate both on land and the sea even without having top tier ideas on both these fields.
Yeah… France is going to dominate Europe alongside another major. Except that today, in AI rush, you'll see France get crushed 90% of the time. Which is kind of Strange considering Europe history. Am not sure a bonii on ship will bring a great difference.


W
hile mid to late game Portugal is absolutely nowhere near as powerful as U.K, France of Spain, their problem was their small size, tiny population and terrible economy. Considering their circumstances, they punched way above their weight, having defeated in battle other much larger and wealthier nations consistently.
Yes… And? Because they fought out of their league and stayed allied with a major for the whole TL, they should be able to match France or any major?

Too be fair, being defeated by "the best" isn't exactly surprising.
Also, fighting 4 wars (and winning 2 of them) before being defeated isn't exactly being rapidly crushed in my book.
Hm. UK during the XVIIth is the best. After Spain, France, Austria, probably the PLC. When i speak about rapidly crush, i speak about the short dominance of the VOC, which is able to beat consistently Portugal, only to soon be beaten by the English. If you compare it to the TL, their era or total dominance over Asia is rather "short".

While one could make a case for the Netherlands's might coming for their financial skills, this was not also true for Portugal.
Portugal was never really a particulary wealthy nation, nor were they skilled at trade. Yes they did manage to mass large amounts of wealth during the early 1500's with Indian Ocean trade and the early 1700's with Brazilian gold and gems, they proved to be very incompetent at managing their wealth and quickly squandered everything and went back to borderline bankruptcy (Same with Spain, which managed to go bankrupt 3 times despite being the only true global empire with large amount of American wealth).
Portugal did a great job at establishing a trade empire (by conquering several imporant coastal cities all across the world before any other European tried it, being the first nation in the world capable of Projecting power intercontinentally due to their high quality navy)
But they did a terrible job at actually running their empire, the "Casa da India" was already running on a deficit by 1530, before the Portuguese started losing their holdings or even having competition in the East.
Portugal in Eu4 shouldn't be good at profiting from trade, it should be good at actually establishing a trade empire spawning all continents as fast as possible (Good luck trying to beat vijayanagar as Portugal in 1505)
The "Spanish Bankrupcy" were economical weapons used by the crowns against the banks. Not a Bankrupcy similar to the ones we know now. And, yes, i agree, Portuguese bonii should be on Overseas troops and settling Brazil (mainly) rather than on pure trade bonus.

I see no reason to keep Spain out of the equation, afterall they did crush the British in one of the most impressive naval battles in history, Cartagena of the Indies, 1741.
It's hard to compare France and Spain in the late game since they were often fighting alongside eachoter, and it's also hard to compare France to Portugal since they never had significant naval battles, only minor skirmishes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Siege_of_Gibraltar
https://books.google.fr/books?id=2W...oECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=french navy 1776&f=false

And there are probably plenty of other books i dont know about how the Spanish navy, despite being manned by brave and competent sailors suffered outdated ship and unable leads. Exactly what happened to the French navy post 1789. And, once more, while Spanish navy, during the first half of the game was competent, engineering speaking and tactically speaking, it is not the case late game. We only speak about a "74 canons" legitimacy. Not about who was the best sailor.

Late game
Sure, you could argue that France in the XVIII century was on the same league (or above) as Spain, Netherlands and Portugal, but let's be honest, every country unlocks all ideas by the mid XVI century, you can't really make France dominate the late game without dominating the mid game too (Unless with Age bonus, which France absurdly doesn't get any in the Age of Revolutions, despite literally being the staple of the Age of Revolutions. Meanwhile Prussia does get *another* substantial military buff in the age of Revolutions, despite Napoleon had crushed Prussia).

I definitely agree. Age of Révolutions bears a French flag but no French bonus. Yet they dont want to give a nation two bonus so there are no discussion possible. However, i do agree that you often end your idea path, way to early. But if you put 74 canons as the very last idea that should bring you around 1650/1670, while its 70 years before the 74 canons did appear, it is the very moment France got Richelieu and Colbert starting to build from quasi ashes a Navy.

But i do agree with you, idea should be more difficult to unlock. I regret that.

And finally, this is a videogame, certainly not one where balance is a priority sure, but I think ideas should try to bring about some historical balance that can't be modelled otherwise. The Carib tribes have ridiculously overpowered military ideas, but nobody cares because they are so weak anyway that it doesn't matter, its understandable they need them to actually be a moderate threat at all. Im fine with poor/small nations who punched above their weight having strong ideas.
But when considering one of the most (if not the most) OP nations in the game, maybe giving them the best ideas on every field compared to their weaker rivals is just an unnecessary overkill.

France has average idea, (way inferior to Prussia, Poland, Ottoman... That were unable to match Western Europe Troops might during the last part of the TL. Prussia reputation only stands for the 7YW, and, what a surprise, Prussia being crushed in 4 days by Napoleon and Davout is absolutely not taken into account in the game). Its harsh to consider it OP as everything is done to make the country punch Under its historical league (compare it to the Ottomans, that never were able to beat a major European country single handedly).

What's more, France litteraly get 0 idea about Naval Warfare, even if they provided the European navies with the majority of end game standards (74 Canons, Fregate de 24, then Fregate de 30, Borda Sané Drawings)

And about Overkills, once more, launch 10 AI games, and post the screen here. I can bet with you that France wont be a major anymore in the vast majority of it. Unlike Otto and Spain. Which are OP, not only considering their ideas, but also their location.
 
Hm. UK during the XVIIth is the best. After Spain, France, Austria, probably the PLC. When i speak about rapidly crush, i speak about the short dominance of the VOC, which is able to beat consistently Portugal, only to soon be beaten by the English. If you compare it to the TL, their era or total dominance over Asia is rather "short".

During the first half of the seventeenth century the Dutch and the English mostly shared the dominance on the sea, while during the second half the Dutch were stronger (Spain might also have shared this dominance). England only became dominant after the glorious revolution and the relocation of a good part of the Dutch merchant class to London. The Netherlands stopped becoming dominant due to both this relocation and the constant wars against France (the Dutch formed a big part of the strength of their side in the Nine Years' War and the War of Spanish Succession), but was dominant for around a full century (during parts of which the Dutch merchant fleet was bigger than the ones of all other powers combined).
 
The idea of keeping the unit look from their culture is simply gorgeous It is possible that for someone, this contributes confusion, but in my opinion green and blue tinting will remove this difficulty. I like to look at how perfectly made units look. Do the same for Russia. It’s not for nothing that you invested so much work into it, and made the dlc “What if ...” pay.
 
This patch is interesting

BUT

I think adding the possibility to develop provinces not only with monarch points, but also with manpower, is very important. When you get to maximum sailors/manpower level, you're basically wasting them, so it's smart to find a way to use them.
 
when did they beat much larger and wealthier nations?
Interregnum of 1383-1385: Decisive victory over Castille
War of the Castillian sucession, 1475-1479: Military stalemate against Castille&Aragon
1640-1668 Restauration War: Decisive Victory against Spain.
1640-1661 Dutch-Portuguese war: Reconquest of nearly all territories lost during Spanish rule.
1701-1714 War of the Spanish sucession:
Military Victory (In its respective theatre of the larger conflict) over Bourbon Spain.
1756-1763 7 Years War: Victory over Spain and France (with help of Prussian officers)
1806-1820 Peninsular War: Victory over France (with help of the British army and officers)
Also, most of their colonial conquests happened in the early 1500's against wealthy nations in India, Arabia and Indonesia. Not against primitive native americans, or after the great divergence when Europe was technologically far superior to anyone else, so there is merit there as well.

Yes, most of these were defensive (but involved offensive actions ie: the occupation of Madrid in 1706) Yes, most of these were part of larger conflicts with other nations involved (but i mostly argue from the perspective individual battles where contribution is more clear). And Yes, in most of these the gains were minimal. I'm not arguing about them being great conqueros, i'm just saying that out of every time a larger, wealthier nation (usually Spain or France) tried to conquer them, they were always manage to defend themselves militarily, with the exception of the the Sucession Crisis in 1580, when the goverment was colapsed anyway and there was no organized opposition.
I'm perfectly aware of the English support, but it was only decisive in the Peninsular War (Where France did beat Portugal in most battles before the U.K arrived), But the British army had roughly equal numbers on the field as the Portuguese army, it by no means strips Portugal of its merit.
I am simply unaware of any time Portugal lost against someone below its league, or lost despite favourable odds, (im not saying it never happend, it sure did, im just saying its not that commun) to justify them having literally the worst military and naval ideas in the game.

Yes… And? Because they fought out of their league and stayed allied with a major for the whole TL, they should be able to match France or any major?
They shouldn't be able to match any major, but pound for pound, they were not inferior to anyone else in Europe.
They shouldn't punch higher than the majors but definitly above their own weight.
Both Spain and France should beat Portugal anyday, but they shouldn't be able to do so by simply casually fielding an army half the size (which is what happens right now).
I have already explained above why i belive they deserve some military recognition.

Hm. UK during the XVIIth is the best. After Spain, France, Austria, probably the PLC.
I meant the U.K was the best as far as naval warfare is considered. Not overall the strongest power.

When i speak about rapidly crush, i speak about the short dominance of the VOC, which is able to beat consistently Portugal,
"Consistently" is incorrect, they were able to pick off Portuguese colonies while they were under a P.U with Spain and busy fighting in the 30 years war, true. But when Portugal regained its independence they quickly reconquered all its territory in America and Africa, but only partially in Asia. The Dutch-Portuguese war was inconclusive, both sides had their share of victories and defeats and they were on the same league (arround ~1,5M population)
I'd say those nations were equal in naval quality.

But i do agree with you, idea should be more difficult to unlock. I regret that.
If only it took 5, or even 4 ideas to unlock every slot instead of just 3, we could manage the balance of power across the ages much better.

France has average idea, (way inferior to Prussia, Poland, Ottoman... That were unable to match Western Europe Troops might during the last part of the TL. Prussia reputation only stands for the 7YW, and, what a surprise, Prussia being crushed in 4 days by Napoleon and Davout is absolutely not taken into account in the game).
You know what, i agree.
Prussia, Poland and the Ottomans are overrated.
Yes Prussia was impressive in the 7 years war, but thats just about it. It did beat France later in the Franco-Prussian war but thats way outside Eu4's scope.
Poland's reputation really boils down to a single battle, the siege of Vienna. I have no doubt they had several impressive victories, but in the end, all the hype is about this single battle.
And the Ottomans are already far too powerful to need such powerful ideas. And by the mid game they start punching below their weight. Despite their size and power they still struggled to fight most middle-sized European nations.

Some nations were better in the early game, others in the mid, others in the late.
But France was consistently a dominat power in Europe throught the entire timeframe. So i agree that if we are arguing Overpowered idea sets, France is not on the top of the list. I have no problem with France having one of the best ideas. They do deserve them.
 
Last edited:
@neondt, Should the France Region resemble a pre-1672 or post-1672 France?

If pre-1672 than Artois & Cambresis should be removed from Picardy and formed together with Hainaut a Hainaut area within the Low Countries region. (The area around Cambray used to be part of the county of Hainaut, while Cambray was a bishopric within the low countries). The original county of Valois was part of Picardy and could be moved into the Picardy area.

If post-1672 than move Roussillon to the Languedoc area.


p.s. move also East Frisia together with Oldenburg, and away from Frisia & Groningen. East Frisia was only part of the Kingom of Holland for a brief part in history (1807-1810)
 
Orleans is the pink one. Armagnac is white. Foix is dark violetish. Bourbonnais is cyan. Nevers went from yellow to light purple. But! what's that orange OPM south to Bourbonnais? Is it an independent minor, not listed as a future French vassal?
 
Orleans is the pink one. Armagnac is white. Foix is dark violetish. Bourbonnais is cyan. Nevers went from yellow to light purple. But! what's that orange OPM south to Bourbonnais? Is it an independent minor, not listed as a future French vassal?

Listed french vassals: Orleans, Bourbonnais, Auvergne, Armagnac, and Foix

I'm pretty sure it's Auvergne.
 
France with 5 vassals at game start reminds me of Muscovy, in the exact same situation. It's no big deal. You start integrating them in 1454, starting from bigger to smaller.
Unless you have cores on them it slows you down and eats up your monarch points which mean that while france is still powerful they take a bit to get the snowball rolling.
 
Will there be an event chain about the War of the League of the Public Weal? It’s very important historically and should help in keeping France under check for a little while.
Yes, there are many conflicts nobility vs king of France that could be represented. The Praguerie, the League of the Public Weal, and the Mad War. That may also add Burgundy more as a conspirating, intriguing force against France.