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EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of May 2017

Hello everyone and welcome to this developed diary on setup changes in the Greater Russian region!

For the upcoming 1.22 patch we’ve had another look at modern Russia and Belarus. This is a region that has received attention previously but we feel that it was not up to the level of detail we have become accustomed to in other parts of Europe and that it could not properly reflect the lay of the land in the region in 1444.

The Russian Principalities in 1444:

In 1444 Russia was still divided into a number of principalities, in many ways this is the result of the constant interference from the Golden Horde. The Khans had defeated and divided the early Russian principalities and have come to not only exact tribute from the remaining states here, but have also acted as king-makers and guarantors of princely power.
As the game opens however the Golden Horde is going through a rough couple of decades with external pressure and internal struggles, historically ending in its general breakup into a number of much weaker successor states.
The Great Horde in our start date is what remains of the core of the Golden Horde but others, such as Crimea, would in time come to conquer and attempt to usurp their role as the overlord of the Russian states.
What this means for the Russians is that while horde intervention is still a factor in local politics, they have now been given some time to grow and thrive. As one of the main collectors of tribute for the Khans, Muscovy is now in the process of building a strong power base and has already used a combination of bribes and coercion to secure control over land of the minor princes in the region.


eu4_30.jpg


As you can see, in 1.22 we have chosen to greatly expand the number of provinces in this region. This allows for a greater degree of detail in the warfare in this region both between the principalities themselves and between the Russians and the Tatar hordes.
We have also taken the opportunity once again to adjust the development of the Russian region a bit, increasing it slightly to allow the states here to better make their mark upon the world.
In 1.22 one of the things this means is that some of the states we know and love are no longer the same. Ryazan is now a 4 province state and Yarloslavl and Tver are now 2 and 3 provinces respectively.

Muscovy:
First of the Russian principalities we have Muscovy itself. In 1444 this is already the dominant native power and in 1.22 it is the overlord of no less than five smaller principalities. The expanded number of provinces ensures that all is not lost simply from one battle or one siege, there is now room to move around when Kazan, the Great Horde or Lithuania comes knocking.
The greater detail has also allowed us to better show a number of centers of regional importance, giving it more of the historical depth that we have come to expect of other regions where we have overhauled the map.

Among the changes to the setup for Muscovy is also a revision of their ideas. Muscovite Ideas are now separate from those you get for forming Russia and currently look like this:

Muscovite Ideas:

Traditions:
Diplomatic Relations +1
Shock Damage Dealt +10%

1. Gatherers of Tribute: National Tax Income Modifier: +10%
2. Legacy of Dmitriy Donskoi: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.5
3. Seat of Metropolitan Bishop: Missionary Strength +1%, Tolerance of True Faith +1
4. Pomestnoe Voisko: Land Morale +10%
5. Strength of the Boyars: Stability Cost Modifier -20%
6. Zasechnaya Cherta: Fort Maintenance -20%
7. Descendants of the Byzantine Emperors: Diplomatic Reputation +1

Ambition:
Land Force Limit Modifier +33%

The decision to form Russia will in turn give a new set of ideas should you choose to abandon your old Principality ideas.

Russian Ideas:

Traditions:
National Manpower Modifier: +33%
Core-Creation Cost: -10%

Land of the Rus: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Siberian Frontier: Colonists: +1
Russian Artillery Yard: Artillery Cost: -10%, Artillery Combat Ability +10%
Life-Long Conscription: Land Force Limit Modifier: +50%
Abolish the Mestnichestvo: Yearly Corruption: -0.1
The Table of Ranks: Yearly Army Tradition: +0.25, Advisor Cost: -10%
Broaden the Curriculum of the Cadet Corps: +5% Land Morale, 10% less fire damage received

Ambition:
Yearly Legitimacy: +1

New Playable Countries:
In EU in general and in Russia in particular there’s always a decision to be made of what is to be a province with high autonomy and, what should be a subject state or even independent. Our game enforces strict differences depending on what you pick but in reality it was quite possible in many cases to be somewhere in between.
In the case of Russia in 1444, Muscovy is in possession much land that really belongs to a minor principality that they have somehow acquired (often by simply buying the land from the princes in control of it) or that is ruled by a prince that has moved to the court in Moscow, allowing the Muscovite's to administrate it for him. In 1.22 we have taken another look at how we want the Muscovite lands to be portrayed and added two new vassal tags:

The first is the small state of Rostov, between Tver and Yaroslavl. This principality was in many ways quite firmly under Muscovite control ever since its princes had sold off half of the lands to Moscow, but Rostov would not be integrated entirely until 1474.
Rostov has a long and interesting history and would continue to play an important part in Russian politics every now and then, even as a part of a greater Russian state. We therefore thought it would be an interesting addition to the mix of states you can play in 1444.

Rostov Ideas:

Traditions:
Provincial Trade Power Modifier: +10%
Idea Cost: -10%

Re-Unification of Rostov: Goods Produced Modifier: +10%
Ancient Heritage: Aggressive Expansion Impact: -10%
Ecclesiastical Center: Tolerance of True Faith: +2
Entrepot of Russia: Trade Efficiency: +10%
Rostov Architecture: Construction Cost: -10%
Political Influence: Diplomats: +1
Rostov Enamel: Production Efficiency: +10%

Ambition:
Diplomatic Reputation: +1

The second new state we have added is one in the north, right at the border with Novgorod. The principality of Beloozero was never a metropolis and is long past its glory days in 1444. Ruled by Muscovite princes it would formally be incorporated directly into Muscovy in 1486 and its nobles would mostly make their mark upon the world within the frames of the Russian Empire. It's position is an interesting one however and our game history might unfold differently.

Beloozero Ideas:

Traditions:
Trade Efficiency: +10%
Infantry Combat Ability: +10%

Martial Heritage: Cavalry Cost: -10%
Monastic Traditions: Yearly Prestige: +1
Strengthen Local Lineages: Yearly Legitimacy: +1
Northern Trade: Domestic Trade Power: +25%
Officers of Beloozero: Yearly Army Tradition +0.5
Boreal Warfare: Attrition for Enemies: +1
Scientific Patronage: Technology Cost: -5%

Ambition:
Goods Produced Modifier +10%

Novgorod:

eu4_28.jpg


In the far north we have broken up some of Novgorod’s bigger provinces. Novgorod's domains always presented something of a difficulty to portray in that many of these locations had little in terms of population, yet contributed to the overall wealth of the Republic.
It also gives Novgorod some much needed strategic depth when fighting Muscovy to the south.

Lithuania:

eu4_31.jpg


Lithuania has long been a region in need of greater detail. In 1.22 we have broken up and reshaped many of their provinces, especially in the northeast. When adding new provinces we have tried to accommodate important regional centers, the internal administrative divisions of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth as well as the gradual expansion of Muscovy and later Russia into Belarus and the Ukraine.
As this was a highly contested region for much of the period covered by the game this should should hopefully make the region a lot more interesting to play in. It should also allow for a more engaging conquest for strong neighboring states...

That was all for today!
Next week’s developer diary will be written by Johan and may or may not touch on more things that could impact the region...
 
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I dont get why you are all screaming about Russia 75% Manpower nerfed, Russian population wasnt bigger than France's one before early 1800's.
Not to forget the Orthodoxy +33% Local manpower buff and the Edict you can throw on top of it for extra 25% Local Manpower. Just specialize some states into Manpower and you'll still get ungodly amount of bodies to throw.

Mostly waiting for changes for the Hordes and Novgorod.
(and some love for HRE members without idea set and "huge" French province size, I know I know, it will come one day)

(Plus Russia didnt won her wars through "sheer number", it's mostly her neighbours which had a lower population plus Russian army modernised quickly at the end of the 17th Century)

Holy crap, thanks for pointing that out. I looked it up and that's entirely accurate, I had no idea france had more population than giant russia even in 1750 o_O

I still think the the russian ideas are kinda weak... Perhaps a bonus to religion or production/goods produced?
 
About your earlier post mentioning Russia being OP as hell despite their idea set. If they are buffed through the roof via goverment, religion, culture modifiers, events or any combination of all above, wouldn't that just result in other nations with far better ideas be better at being Russia (forming it) than Russia itself? Like Poland or Prussia forming Russia, and enjoying those OP bonuses (to balance out mediocre Russian Ideas).

I absolutely hate concept of a nation-state forming another nation-state, as it introduces so many loopholes.

Any potential russian government abilities will only be for russian government types which can not be switched to unless you are one of them from the start though.

Anyway, we're adding 10% artillery_power to the artillery idea, and changing institution spread to 5% morale and 10% less firedamage taken, while reducing Fur's bonus to 0.5 prestige and balancing other stuff you havent seen to compensate.
 
I absolutely hate concept of a nation-state forming another nation-state, as it introduces so many loopholes.

Any potential russian government abilities will only be for russian government types which can not be switched to unless you are one of them from the start though.

Anyway, we're adding 10% artillery_power to the artillery idea, and changing institution spread to 5% morale and 10% less firedamage taken, while reducing Fur's bonus to 0.5 prestige and balancing other stuff you havent seen to compensate.
I actually thought the institution spread was very helpful for russia because they have lots of poor provinces and a wide empire.
 
I absolutely hate concept of a nation-state forming another nation-state, as it introduces so many loopholes.

Any potential russian government abilities will only be for russian government types which can not be switched to unless you are one of them from the start though.

Anyway, we're adding 10% artillery_power to the artillery idea, and changing institution spread to 5% morale and 10% less firedamage taken, while reducing Fur's bonus to 0.5 prestige and balancing other stuff you havent seen to compensate.
So Novgorod in such case get shafted as it is currently Republic or is it Principality (Unique Goverment) as well?
 
I actually thought the institution spread was very helpful for russia because they have lots of poor provinces and a wide empire.

You can't get everything in life, and something have to give.

Traditions are great, you don't want to lose them.

1 - AE impact is a good one, and since we have a military bonus as traditon, we need something else conquest related early.
2 - Siberian Frontier has the auto-explore and a colonist is good for russia, so you dont get forced to exploration or expansion ideas early.
3 - Artillery Yard got boosted, and with 10% cheaper, and 10% better artillery, its an awesome idea.
4 - 50% forcelimits is very strong, as most nations get +25% or +33% here.
5 - Corruption reduction means you can debase currency at need, and/or not suffer as much from overextension.
6 - 10% cheaper advisors together with an average army tradition is a good one.
7 - institution spread was the weakest, so replace with a good military idea is the best possibility.


So Novgorod in such case get shafted as it is currently Republic or is it Principality (Unique Goverment) as well?

no, they wont be shafted.. why would they?
 
You can't get everything in life, and something have to give.

Traditions are great, you don't want to lose them.

1 - AE impact is a good one, and since we have a military bonus as traditon, we need something else conquest related early.
2 - Siberian Frontier has the auto-explore and a colonist is good for russia, so you dont get forced to exploration or expansion ideas early.
3 - Artillery Yard got boosted, and with 10% cheaper, and 10% better artillery, its an awesome idea.
4 - 50% forcelimits is very strong, as most nations get +25% or +33% here.
5 - Corruption reduction means you can debase currency at need, and/or not suffer as much from overextension.
6 - 10% cheaper advisors together with an average army tradition is a good one.
7 - institution spread was the weakest, so replace with a good military idea is the best possibility.




no, they wont be shafted.. why would they?
Good changes. But Muscovy still a bit better to my taste. I think that's the main problem.

What about ambitions? You didn't mention them.
 
@Johan Will we see more variation in which AI forms Russia as of right now its seems like a pretty stagnate area, I get that Muscovy should in most cases become Russia but it doesn't seem like it was as historically locked into stone as the Ottomans or French.
 
I absolutely hate concept of a nation-state forming another nation-state, as it introduces so many loopholes.

Any potential russian government abilities will only be for russian government types which can not be switched to unless you are one of them from the start though.

Anyway, we're adding 10% artillery_power to the artillery idea, and changing institution spread to 5% morale and 10% less firedamage taken, while reducing Fur's bonus to 0.5 prestige and balancing other stuff you havent seen to compensate.

What about switching to a revolutionary govt type? Say Muscovy -> Russia. Wait until 1700 and force revolutionary disaster to trigger for you. Then what? You are stuck as Russia's govt no matter what forever?
 
You can't get everything in life, and something have to give.

Traditions are great, you don't want to lose them.

1 - AE impact is a good one, and since we have a military bonus as traditon, we need something else conquest related early.
2 - Siberian Frontier has the auto-explore and a colonist is good for russia, so you dont get forced to exploration or expansion ideas early.
3 - Artillery Yard got boosted, and with 10% cheaper, and 10% better artillery, its an awesome idea.
4 - 50% forcelimits is very strong, as most nations get +25% or +33% here.
5 - Corruption reduction means you can debase currency at need, and/or not suffer as much from overextension.
6 - 10% cheaper advisors together with an average army tradition is a good one.
7 - institution spread was the weakest, so replace with a good military idea is the best possibility.




no, they wont be shafted.. why would they?

As a replacement for AE impact. Perhaps -.1 monthly LA? After all Russia is strongly centralized at least to my limit understanding of Russia history.

That way you can start earn more and have more manpower sooner in your early conquests?

I don't know how to replace institution spread.
 
1 - AE impact is a good one, and since we have a military bonus as traditon, we need something else conquest related early.

But we don't have any coalitions in Russian Region. This bonus is just... well, it's useless. I think, unjustified demands or some vassal bonus will be more suitable where. These bonuses are conquest related.
 
Any patriot can easily reel off a list of examples in which their chosen country came up on top of unfavourable odds. Another way of looking at what you've described would be to portray Russia as a chronically weak state for at least half of the game due to the factors you mention (weak institutions and succession mechanisms, overpopulation etc) that was at once both saved and cursed by its vast geography. Importantly, you don't consider whether rather than Russia being strong, Lithuania had recently become much weaker relative to Russia by 1503.

Wow. So, i'm useing examples when country was wrecked by neighbours and internal sturggle, but, later, came on the top - "we can find examples". And you use practically the same points, but, well, they are, somehow, more accurate? Boi, rly?
Yes, it was weak AFTER Livonian War, Oprichnina and Time of Troubles. State lost nearly half of population. Before it - got its own small 30-years war :3
About institutions - Russian Tsars loved to invite different specialists, so they would be able to be on par with Europe. Mainly they came through 1) Crimea, 2) Baltic Sea. While Crimea became vassal of Ottomans - coming through that land would be pretty dangerous. So, the Baltic Sea was left as sole route. But, at last, Livonian Order decided, that they don't want to have mot only bigger and stronger, but technologically advanced neighbour and captured new group of different specialist (Case of Shlitte). So, this really pissed Ivan IV. Rest is history. Just how much effort was wasted and that, even with more forces, Russia managed to get draw...

What is important is A) thinking carefully about the historiographical assumptions we are all making when we use the word "balance" B) separating out the long term structural factors that really underpin "balance" through time from short-term successes.

There was a reason it took 300 more years for Russia to destroy the Polish state after your 'draw', and the fact that this only really occurs in that last 150-100 years suggests something changed around 1650 where Russian and Polish power begins to diverge. This is really what the game should be thinking about with regards to this question - what has to go wrong for powerful states like Poland to collapse?

None of this is meant as a criticism of Russia per se - by all means they were successful at adapting to a changing situation.

I don't argue that Poland was strong state. I argue that Russia was weak.
Again, in 1654-1667 Russia defeated PLC. 40 years past since end of Time of Troubles. Same happened to Russia during internal problems.
Like, really, both states were on same level.


You can't get everything in life, and something have to give.

Traditions are great, you don't want to lose them.

1 - AE impact is a good one, and since we have a military bonus as traditon, we need something else conquest related early.
2 - Siberian Frontier has the auto-explore and a colonist is good for russia, so you dont get forced to exploration or expansion ideas early.
3 - Artillery Yard got boosted, and with 10% cheaper, and 10% better artillery, its an awesome idea.
4 - 50% forcelimits is very strong, as most nations get +25% or +33% here.
5 - Corruption reduction means you can debase currency at need, and/or not suffer as much from overextension.
6 - 10% cheaper advisors together with an average army tradition is a good one.
7 - institution spread was the weakest, so replace with a good military idea is the best possibility.

Won't argue - 33% compensates those loosy 10%.

But you are locked and there is no problems with coalitions?
Yap, really good idea <3
Wow. Yeah, now it tops a lot of other ideas.
But it is pretty strange name...YOu really get more manpower throug conscripts.
It is nice eco bonus. Considering how much you have to core.
But won't be noticable. 0.25 is just 1/20. It is like 5 AT.
Maybe "Tactics of columns and loose formation" which were used by Suvorov?


Any potential russian government abilities will only be for russian government types which can not be switched to unless you are one of them from the start though.

Anyway, we're adding 10% artillery_power to the artillery idea, and changing institution spread to 5% morale and 10% less firedamage taken, while reducing Fur's bonus to 0.5 prestige and balancing other stuff you havent seen to compensate.

Wow, you made set so strong... (not sarcasm).
 
Can you change culture groups for Turkish and Azerbaijani groups as it was before? In the old patches there was an Oguz culture group,where Turkish,Azerbaijani and Turkmeni were in one group. Why did you change Turkish to Levantine culture group,and Azerbaijani to Iranian culture group?
 
Also, i have pretty strange suggestion, which no one will like and which is stupid xD
Maybe, as tradition, give 33%/50% FL (to represent Pomestja System) and make 33% manpower from conscription?
 
Can you change culture groups for Turkish and Azerbaijani groups as it was before? In the old patches there was an Oguz culture group,where Turkish,Azerbaijani and Turkmeni were in one group. Why did you change Turkish to Levantine culture group,and Azerbaijani to Iranian culture group?

Turkish in levantine fits better, and makes Ottomans more powerful.
 
Also, i have pretty strange suggestion, which no one will like and which is stupid xD
Maybe, as tradition, give 33%/50% FL (to represent Pomestja System) and make 33% manpower from conscription?

That makes Russia weaker, as manpower > force limit, and the earlier you get a bonus, the better.
 
That makes Russia weaker, as manpower > force limit, and the earlier you get a bonus, the better.

Yip, i know :( I have some strange obsession with order of ideas...

And thank you! I think that EU4 can be pretty good in destroying stereotypes about different countries :)
 
Well yeah, Russian NIs look a lot better now. AE Impact still seems useless though, considering their usual targets.

Turkish in levantine fits better, and makes Ottomans more powerful.

Couldn't Turkish be in a different group and the Conquer Levant missions make Egyptian/Syrian (and maybe Bedouin) accepted?
 
Can you change culture groups for Turkish and Azerbaijani groups as it was before? In the old patches there was an Oguz culture group,where Turkish,Azerbaijani and Turkmeni were in one group. Why did you change Turkish to Levantine culture group,and Azerbaijani to Iranian culture group?

Azeri really needs to be in the Iranian group imo, Persia rarely has as much of an impact on the game as IRL anyway and the Azeri provinces were very significant to their state historically.