EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[HottestRod]

While I do not agree with a harsh response, some changes on the map should be done to optimize it, since you won't (probably) touch Iberia in a long time after this. As I don't work for you, I can't give you data, but I do agree with the comentaries of Naranjito, at least in most part. In map changes, I recommend you to give another look into the southern part of Spain.

A fair point. I already drafted a few points based on the thread for the team. I can vouch that they have been actively reading suggestions and implementing a few changes here and there.

First of all, nice changes

Second, @RodDel & @neondt I just read this whole thread, and I noticed a very big change of tone after this post. Instead of receiving critic on the DD, a discussion started about multiple aspects of the post. I think this post was the turn around, since you showed that you were actively listening to the (sometimes harsh) feedback you received. This encouraged posters to give even more feedback.

Is it an idea, for every dev diary, to post a little update the day after the update to show the feedback that you take into account and that will the game? That way, people know they are heared, and are stimulated to give constructive feedback

It is a good idea, I'll dig into it to see if I can post a quick recap of amended elements. I can't guarantee it will be implemented, but I'll do my best. Thanks for the idea As mentioned above, I took the liberty of adding a few suggestions to my report. In addition (perhaps you've already seen it?) @neondt posted a few screenshots of amended map rework in the thread.

I'm just curious, 5 extra provinces for Aragon doesn't upset game balance?
If anything Aragon is already the most overpowered nation in Mediterranean. There are no historical grounds why its development is twice the Naples, Papal States or Milan. Those 4 should be close in strength / development, maybe with Milan a bit behind. And with 16 provinces I doubt that development of Aragon was reduced.
For most of 15-18th centuries Aragon was the most remote and backwards region in Iberia, how come it gets so much flavor?

There were plenty of Iberia suggestions, none were complaining about Aragon and none suggested as many as 5 new provinces.

Can't say that 16 provinces are bad. Actually it is quite ideal, just that for Aragon it is like end product - it's hard to think of potential province which is still missing. While for Portugal and Castile there are still plenty of missing important provinces.

Portugal and Castile definitely are not on par with Aragon in Iberia and this patch only about to increase the distance. Neither all the rest of Mediterranean is on par with Aragon.

I'll pass your feedback to the devs! Cheers BalticM!

For Castile. First of all modern Spain doesn´t even look close regarding developement of what Castile was. By this I mean that in the 15th century Valladolid (NOT CASTILLA LA VIEJA, THATS A TERM TO DEFINE ALL OF PRIMITIVE CASTILE) was one of the major cities in the Peninsula, along with Burgos, considered the jew of Castile (just look for its Catedrale on the internet), Segovia (seat of the monarchs of de Trastamara) which was the political capital and Salamanca(in Salamanca we find the most important school of thought during the 15th century). In the north we find Zamora, a city famous for its walls and Leon, both of which have declined as wool trade, most important activity in late medieval Castile was focused on the Castilian side of the northern plateau. We also find the basque ports, which I strongly suggest adding as they had an enormous importance in trade in the Cantabrian sea, main focus of Castile trade. If we look to the center we are missing Guadalajara, possible to split it from Cuenca, as not only was it an important city, but splitting Cuenca into 2 would give Castile more ways of planning a defense against Aragon. Madrid was a small town in this era, and I think you should make a chain of events that make it develop from an insignificant town to one of the biggest european cities, it would be really cool, and it would make Castilian players feel that their nation is advancing, developing, getting richer. Extremadura is another place where I´m confused, how Galicia has such a big detail while Extremadura, a really important place at this era has 2 provinces. I suggest spliting thosue into 4 so we can se the depth of the region, which, I insist was way richer than it is today. Splitting it will also give a bigger and more detailed frontier with portugal, which will make the situation in the peninsula way more interesting. Now lets turn to Toledo state. In this state we find almaden mine, the biggest mercury mine in the world by this time, and don´t forget that you cant get silver without mercury. I sugges splitting Toledo and La mancha into 2 provinces each, maybe getting Ocaña and Ciudad real. And finally the south, andalusia. Cordoba was the biggest city of europe in the 10th century, it isnt son important anymore, but it isnt as porr as it is represented, I would suggest getting its development up, and adding a chain of events or decisions for Andalusia in which you can restore it to its former glory, get it to produce cloth, silk, etc and be the an impressive capital of the restored Caliphate. About Sevilla and Huelva, I think it is a good idea to split them, though I would still suggest geting 3 provinces there, as it would greatly help castile with naval task. But pleas, don´t make the mistake of letting Sevile as a poor city from the start, it was a huge city and during the 16th and 17th century it grew a lot, until it was hit by a plague. Sevile from the start should have good tradegoods as it produced them and should also be no less of 20 dev, also please leave in that province both the estuary and the COT, as it was one of the biggest centers of trade for a lot of time. I would suggest an event making it the port to the new world be more powerful and another event after the 18th century which lets you decide if you want to change it to Cadiz, as it happened historically. We are only missing murcia, which honestly I would ask to be split between cartagena and murcia, with spain having the option to make cartagena into his major shipyard, thus giving it a bonus or something to reflect what happened historically. I`m also going to ask for making Malaga in Granada a COT, as it was one of the biggest ports in Iberia in the 15th century with trade flowing from all directions, also I suggest giving Granada the province of Baza to let her try to defend against castile because right now castile can stackwipe granada in a month, but with a fort in baza granada can try things. Finally I want to talk about the Canarian islands because although I agree Castile didnt colonice it till after 1444 it is also important to understand that nobody besides castile held claim to it, and as I have seen that you have left it it seems portugal will always take it or in mp games some european colonicer that researchs quicker than spain.


So, to sum up,
1. Castile could get a bit of love in the basque region, splitting Vizcaya into 2 or even 3
2. Get Segovia as a province as it was hugely important and get Castilla la vieja renamed to Valladolid and maybe Toro splitted from Zamora to give more strategic depth there
3.In the center it would be positive to get Guadalajara splitted from Cuenca and Toledo and La Mancha splitted into 2
4. Extremadura with 4 provinces, you could even make it so religious orders control part of it with a modifier or something
5. In the south get Cordoba not to be horribly poor, maybe get a 3rd province in the bay of Seville, split Murcia into Cartagena and Murcia, get Baza to give a little strategic depth to Granada and make Malaga a COT (you could remove the one from Toledo if you dont want more cot in Iberia)
6. Make some kind of chain of events so Castile can colonize Canarias
7.Get developement in the Castile region, (Burgos, Soria, Valladolid, Segovia, Salamanca, Cantabria) higher as they were really rich places then.

I hope you take some of this into consideration to make Castile more fun and enjoying to play

Portugal needs to have at least 15 or 16 provinces, think about balance please. All other countries that go colonial have a good base to start with. And hey, I´m not saying that Portuguese mainland has to be as rich as the whole France, but at least not be laughable. I think other people have exposed already that more provinces is always better for a country, as buildings that give flat modifiers have more use in them. Right now you can play as England, get a lot of wealth and then use that wealth to get your mainland rich and develop, it is an actual option, and many of us don´t just enjoy blobbing and having the biggest name in the map. Some people want to conquer half of the world, other people want to play historically accurate, other want to face challenges, other want eu4 to play mp game, other people want to get achievements and some want to play tall. Last map updates, from Russia to the last Indian one have added lots of new provinces, which actually allow these different playstyles to be done. For example now I can play Japan as a tall,rich,developed nation having colonies in Korea, China, etc, or I can play Japan and try to do my japanese empire. The key is that I can choose what to do, which I couldn´t before Japan got a decent number of provinces. Until now Iberia, and specially portugal was unplayable in some ways. Sure I can beat the ai and conquer half of North Africa if I want, but maybe (and that´s my case) I don´t like to blob, or I don´t want to get ahistorical path, it´s ok. But you know what I can´t do right now, I can´t play a tall Portugal game because the ammount of provinces it has doesn´t allow it. I mean, we are talking about Portugal, one of the most powerful countries in the 15th century, but it still has less provinces than Ireland, an island that had 0 impact in world history during that time (no mean to offend). My suggestion for Portugal would be trying to give her more coastal provinces in her mainland, so it can maintain a decent navy early in the game and can do things ( Portugal can´t even get 20 light ships patrolling plus a 10 heavy ships). If the idea with this patch is giving Portugal some unique bonus and just that I will be really dissapointed, because it will mean Portugal can´t have the level of detail of Ireland, the Arabian desert or Morocco (by no mean I think those areas dont have to have detail).

Finally Aragon. It is important to understand that Aragon had a triple reality, Aragon , Valencia and Catalonia. Aragon region wasn´t really rich, nor was it densily populated, yet it became one of the dominant kingdoms in the late Middle ages fighting toe to toe with France. So how did a nation poorer, more sparsely populated, with less resources, les manpower beat france. The answer is simple, its organization. The Aragon state in the game is where Aragonese traditions still live, more rural area, nobles had more influence. In the game we could have Huesca (actual Pirineos) as it should be the correct name, then Barbastro, the actual mountains, then Teruel in the South, Zaragoza in the middle and Calatayud too, as those are the 4 important areas in which aragon can be divided. Then there is Catalonia, catalonia had been rich in the 12 and 13 century but in the 15 it was Valecia who took the major role as trading area. Catalonia could be divided in Rosellon (which by the way I like how you guys made it distinctive to make it more feasible for France to take it), then Girona (not really rich region and sparsely populated), down from Girona there is barcelona, which should be a nice city but dont have a lot of manpower as, I insist, aragon didnt have the manpower castile had. Down from Barcelona there is Tarragona. And my only suggestion comes with Urgell. I would split it into 2, Lleida and Urgell, Urgell being the catalan counterpart to the Pyrinees and Lleida being a flat terrain. I like how Valencia was doing, giving more strategic depth to it so no comments to that, though you may add a province in the interior that can protect Xativa and Valencia so in case of war Castile doesnt instasiege Valencia. The baleares are good but I wouldnt put a tag on it as it doesnt really make sense historically apart from some disputes in the late medieval ages.

As a sum up I think Aragon is the only Iberian part in which I think there is already a decent number of provinces and a decent detail, though Lleida.....
1. Split Pirineos into Barbastro, being the mountain part and Huesca being only hills
2. Get Calatayud in Aragon state as it was a really important city
3. Get Lleida to Catalonia state, and maybe split Urgell in 2, leaving Urgell to be the mountain part and Lleida the less mountainous part
4. Maybe get a province more in Valencia that can act as a fort to block

Meaty feedback, just how I like it! As usual, no guarantee everything will be implemented but I'll pass it on to the team!

In the current map, the Asturias region is flat (grasslands, might it be?). Actually, it might be easily one of the most mountainous regions in Spain. The mountains there are not going to be Swiss level mountains nor Pyrinees level mountains, but I'd say that "grasslands" is plainly wrong.

Some info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias#Geography_and_climate (this is the english version, the spanish version, https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geografía_de_Asturias, says that the regions is mountainous). There is also a list of mountains and peaks in https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Montañas_de_Asturias. I would say that 170 mountains, each one having a height around 2000 meters shouldn't qualify as "grassland".

The thing with Asturias is that it is a line of mountains in the south of the region, bordering with Leon, then a hilly landscape until you get to the coast. Development there should be low, especially in the Trade section (I guess trade would be the best value representing things like roads and the like), because building roads in Asturias has always been expensive and complex.

It's a minor thing, but it would be more correct. Also, once the industrial revolution kicked in, Asturias began to be famous by its coal. The coal was actually of a lower quality than that of England or Germany, but it might be a source of coal in the game. Maybe having a low production figure could do it.

Wouldn't the mountain be an issue when trying to pass troops in Asturias? I'll talk to the team about that (and also about the coal element following industrial revolution, but that might be out of the scope of the game, right?)

Huh? Is this is what happens when you learn history from playing EU4?

 

[HottestRod]

For history,for culture,for language,for traditions,Valencia deserves his own culture

pfff what a joke, portuguese are south galician and so call catalan culture is just north valencian, pls don't mess with them only serious criticism

We never stated that, we are just reivindicating that ,while being similar to catalans, we aren't them. We have and had our own institutions, culture, traditions, way of thinking and history differenciated from catalans. Hell, we are recognised as an "Historical Nationality" by the Spanish Constitution, along with Catalans, Basques, Galicians, Aragonese and Andalusians. U have the right of not liking it, but we think that now that the Iberian DLC is being developed, its our best chance to get our claims.

Is really that bad that we want our culture being represented in the game? its not like we are harming someone, we just want to be represented.

Yes, they are imposed exonyms. Noone in Galicia would use them if Castillian wasn't imposed. That's why it's a touchy point.

You're saying Galician was discriminated against (something that still happens today) while claiming the suppresion of Galician language and culture had no ulterior motives (like uniformization of culture across the kingdom). This is absurd.

Galicians were NEVER able to be educated only in Galician, Spanish Law (the Spanish constitution) imposes learning Spanish on every citizen. The fact that you're trying to mask these facts tells me you have a nationalist agenda against Galician culture. Stop spreading myths.

Quick reminder, the goal of the development diary is to share information with the fans and gather feedback from the community. Let's not delve into regional politics and semantics. As long as it is constructive, civil and aimed at the development diary, no problem. Keep this discussion out of the forums.

 

[neondt]

I've taken a look at city positioning as well as a few other matters. First though I'd like to quote this post by @Trin Tragula which explains some of the reasoning behind such things:

To some extent things like province names are governed by design philosophy as much as anything.
...
The nudging of cities to be as close to the names capital of a province is also generally not adhered to. The wish has often been in the past to make sure they don’t obscure province names and other things more than anything (personally I do like when they are close to the province capital, but since this can change depending on start date or actions in game it’s not always possible).
Shapes can also at times be distorted for clarity of adjacency (connections need to be clear and more than one or two pixels) or size. London has had to eat some of it surroundings for instance, distorting the region a bit.

Now that said provinces should absolutely always contain the city they are named for, and it’s fine to argue that they should be named after another constituent city than they currently are.
Adding more trade centers is always a question of balance but moving around existing ones can always be considered (and so can adding new ones but the argument needs to be made specifically for why an additional one is needed).

The short version is that city positioning and province shapes aren't entirely a matter of historical geography. With that said, here's how Iberia is looking on my personal build right now. Once again, nations are released for the sake of example.

 

[HottestRod]

They aren't done JUST yet!

Oh boy! XD

 

[neondt]

Will any Maghrebi tags get new National Ideas?

Yes

 

[HottestRod]

Dropping here just to tell you all how please we are with all the feedback you've given! We have tweaked and changed a few things here and there, and we are pleased with the result. Bare in mind that it was very hard to act upon 54 pages of suggestions (there are so many factors to take into account when redrawing a map, especially in terms of game balance). We sincerely appreciate your input on the subject!

Stayed tuned because more map changes will be coming up in a future DD!

Here is the final result for Iberia! Kudos to @neondt for this great job!

 

[neondt]

Technically it should be possible for PT to get Macau through Charter Purchase now.

Stay tuned for news about Portuguese Macau

 

[HottestRod]

This is the same map from 28 pages ago, right?

Yes, indeed

 

[HottestRod]

Then I'm sorry, I find that you are being insincere when you say you took into account our contributions. We repeatedly, before and after that map was posted, explained in detail why the province of Aveiro is wrong historically and in terms of borders (and looks really ugly), and how it can be easily corrected by redrawing its borders and those of Porto to create a Braga province instead. This was completely ignored. And this is just one (glaring) example.

You missed the part where it is said the Iberia map is final.

This was the clarification:

My interpretation is, the map we got a while back was always supposed to be the end of the conversation, but because we didn't understand that and kept growing the thread, @RodDel had to step in and make sure we finally got the message. Can't pretend I'm not extremely disappointed.

It is not impossible that Iberia will be retouched in the future. Perhaps following the release! And we know that when you will read theses lines, you will be disappointed. If we had the time to act upon on every single suggestion we would (though the game would certainly break ). I have taken the time to draft a report on suggestions (all 54 pages of it) that will be forwarded to the dev team. We completely understand the community's point of view regarding Portugal or other provinces, and I sympathize with you all (because you know, I come from Andalusia). And the dev team doesn't want you to stop forwarding suggestions! Take it to the suggestions sub-forum. Hell, tag me in the existing threads if you want! I'll be super glad to keep looking at your suggestions! And if you want to make a new thread there, please do and tell me Bare in mind, once more, that we cannot act upon every single suggestions, see my previous posts in the thread. For now, I will lock the thread - for visibility reasons and give way to other DDs, other DDs that require your input too