HoI 4 Dev Diary - Policing Garrison Rework

[Ossiv]

As far as I can recall, there was no such thing as "standard Security Division"; they were kind of ad-hoc divisions clustered from whatever it was accessible without damage to frontline effort.

Refreshing memory http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/SichDiv/Index.htm

 

[BeauNiddle]

This is what I am worried about. Before Germany became insanely overpowered you could D-Day with no resistance and literally just walk into Berlin. I hope this doesn't take us back to that. The garrisons in the screenshot don't look like they're going to put up much of a fight.

The security / suppression forces are off the map (and are shit for combat)

But you can still garrison your own defence forces with the Army Orders (the old way). So if you want to defend the atlantic wall (and you should want to) you can but they'll be specific defensive forces not just suppression units that happened to be in the area. Now what percentage/strength of forces will be allocated by the AI we don't know yet.

 

[Rzeczpospolita3Narodów]

Will some territories have different levels of resistance and complicity depending on the population, for example, will Danzig
the same level of resistance as Warsaw after the German conquest?

Is not Danzig had a german population and local elected NSDAP before wehrmacht came there?
I think Germany must has core on Danzig after declaring war on Poland, maybe same with Sudetenland, and Memel, or atleast some specific focus like with Elsass-Lothringen. Same about Western Ukraine&Belarus for USSR.

 

[Aeroclub]

Division size is of little importance in this situation. A state will take fractions of a division and meet its suppression requirements exactly

So, does this mean that there will be a fixed garrison requirement, and a binary system of whether this requirement is met or not?

As opposed to having a choice to either put extra or insufficient garrison with appropriate effects on resistance.

Also - will you actually have to train garrisons? If not, why attaching the division system to garrisons in the first place? I mean, an even better strategic abstraction would just be a slider of how much equipment and manpower you want to throw at a particular state to suppress it.

 

[Porkman]

The security / suppression forces are off the map (and are shit for combat)

But you can still garrison your own defence forces with the Army Orders (the old way). So if you want to defend the atlantic wall (and you should want to) you can but they'll be specific defensive forces not just suppression units that happened to be in the area. Now what percentage/strength of forces will be allocated by the AI we don't know yet.

That's really silly. It wasn't like German suppression divisions didn't fight in Normandy.

 

[Dusty_dutchman]

Will there be Rewards for gentle suppression like Germany did in the first days after the netherlands capitulated to the germans?

Also as always keep up the amazing work i cant wait to see this dlc realized

 

[paranoidsteve]

For those of you arguing about cavalry / armored cars, should remember that horses are not modeled in the game presently and historically there was a shortage in horse numbers in Russia from 1942 limiting there Calvary use by the Russians. In Germany the situation was worse. Most horses where required for artillery and supply movement and the situation was dire to say the least from 1943, even with all the looted horses from the occupied areas ,causing hardships (putting it politely) to the occupied peoples.
Armored cars where mostly used for recon , and historically in the British empire as a show of force in the colonies garrisons. The one exception of note I know of was the South African forces in North Africa which used them in battalion force like light tanks.

 

[Ossiv]

For those of you arguing about cavalry / armored cars, should remember that horses are not modeled in the game presently and historically there was a shortage in horse numbers in Russia from 1942 limiting there Calvary use by the Russians. In Germany the situation was worse. Most horses where required for artillery and supply movement and the situation was dire to say the least from 1943, even with all the looted horses from the occupied areas ,causing hardships (putting it politely) to the occupied peoples.

There were shortages of horses, yes. I remember reading that Mongolia delivered millions of horses to the Soviet Union during the war.

 

[pete_ts]

Well, let's remember that the entire reason why Paradox introduced this idea that Cav were CO-IN specialists back in HOI2 was so players wouldn't simply disband the historical Cav divisions...

OK I buy the idea that the horses are here because some people insist that Cosack divisions etc. should use them (although those dudes mostly walked). Then for some reason the same horses find their way into cavalry battalions (or Squadrons as they should correctly be named) which means that a late US inf/arm div will use bloody horsies(!) for recon as opposed to light tanks, jeeps and half-tracks.

There are a few mods that address this shortcoming, Black ICE for instance. Some technologies alter the equipment cost to use relevant vehicles and horses are only used for early horse-drawn artillery etc. This is a more accurate depiction.

 

[Ossiv]

OK I buy the idea that the horses are here because some people insist that Cosack divisions etc. should use them (although those dudes mostly walked). Then for some reason the same horses find their way into cavalry battalions (or Squadrons as they should correctly be named) which means that a late US inf/arm div will use bloody horsies(!) for recon as opposed to light tanks, jeeps and half-tracks.

When one reads WWII organization charts and compositions they should not stop after reading unit names, but check their equipment.

The French Army of 1939-40 had real cavalry with horses, but also motorized/mechanized "cavalry". The name did not always tell, what equipment was used.
The USA had real cavalry in the beginning of WWII, late war cavalry did not have horses, it was all motorized/mechanized. For example, the Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron ment halftracks, armored cars, light tanks and trucks, but no horses.
But then
The German and Soviet cavalry units really had horses. When the Germans gave the 1st Cavalry Division tanks and trucks, they also changed it's name into 24. Panzer Division. So in Germany, if cavalry was mechanized, it became part of the armored forces (Panzertruppen), not cavalry any more.
In the Soviet Union Cavalry Divisions with horses served thru the whole war. They could have some armor, halftracks, trucks also, but most of the infantry component moved on horseback.

So, the term "cavalry" could be used for horseback soldiers, or for something totally different. Check their equipment, not just their name, to be sure. Later during the Vietnam War the USA even had "air cavalry" with helicopters.

 

[Michael Gladius]

Will land doctrines be rebalanced? Right now Superior Firepower is the best doctrine in 90% of situations, and that doesn't feel right. Grand Battleplan (particularly the left Assault path) and Mass Assault need a buff.

Agree- I put together a post in suggestions on this. What are some of your thoughts?

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/upgrades-to-land-doctrine-trees.1189676/

 

[Nootjes]

Looks very well planned, looking forward to the next DLC !!! I can't imagine what HOI15 wil look like )

 

[Michael Gladius]

Well, let's remember that the entire reason why Paradox introduced this idea that Cav were CO-IN specialists back in HOI2 was so players wouldn't simply disband the historical Cav divisions...

In Rhodesia during the '80s, mounted infantry was used against communist guerrillas because trucks were too loud, dust-kicking, and fuel-consuming for Rhodesia's embargoed economy. Plus there were tactical bonuses on the plains and difficult terrain: https://rhodesianforces.org/GreysScoutsRideAgain.htm

Perhaps cavalry/mounted infantry and their tech branch could be a side-branch of military police, itself related to signals companies in the same way super-heavy battleships are related to battleships?

 

[Michael Gladius]

Cheers for the DD and extra info through the thread Bobby New system looks very good - a much easier way to manage resistance with just as much cost, but a whole lot less busywork .

As for a naval pic, river gunboats were used, particularly (but not only) in China by Japan to help keep the peace in provinces that the IJA had overrun. Here's the river gunboat Toba, that spent most of the latter half of the war on the lower Yangtze.

But no, I'm not arguing for the inclusion of river gunboats in HoI4 Although I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be in HoI4 either .

Rivers should be useful for parallel movement, and river gunboats aren't a bad idea.

 

[EntropyAvatar]

Why would you suppress with equipment you dont have? You're just going to bleed manpower and surely less men means less suppression and now you're in a vicious cycle until your men get the guns you need.

Well, as it stands currently, less equipment doesn't mean less suppression. Also, I don't see a particular reason to think that less equipment will mean more casualties from partisan attacks (except if lack of equipment is lowering your hardness).

Basically right now it is possible (though difficult in terms of micro) to suppress perfectly fine with whatever fraction of equipment allows you to deploy a division. I just don't want to see that carried forward or else it will be very easy to abuse in the new set up.

 

[Lord Hoosier]

What about garrisons like the American forces spread around the islands, will they stay on map? If so, they really need a better way to manage them and keep their island holdings protected. They so often get moved around strangely by the AI when you try to garrison them as an army.

 

[him_15]

Are the Dev going to answer all these questions?

 

[BeauNiddle]

Are the Dev going to answer all these questions?

In general the Dev's only post for an hour or two after the diary is posted. Sometimes they keep posting in their personal time but in general these diaries are more information than discussion (although they mention reading most posts).

There is lots of discussion amongst (uninformed) players tho!

 

[blue_yonder]

In general the Devs only post for an hour or two after the diary is posted.

That's true, but I can't recall any other DD where less follow-up info was given than here. Whether these garrisons can or cannot fight could be answered with a simple yes or no. My guess is that they can't, in which case they should at least hinder progress to some degree, in a similar way that air superiority hinders progress currently - i.e. non-specific but there all the same.

 

[DukofDeth]

I'd like to see something that does a better job of telling the AI what it needs o garrison. I still see games where powerful countries like the Soviet Union have millions of troops tied up guarding borders that, while not Allied, are not AXIS, and between them might muster a tenth of what the Soviets have sitting on their combined borders - there doesn't appear to be any way for the AI to properly assess the threat potential of its neighbors. It isn't as if an AI is responding to a perceived threat, when the same could be said of the other AI's - they are all following the same subroutines - these AI's are just filling border provinces with divisions. I realize the AI does not know that the other AI's are not able to attack without some focus or claims driving their expansion, but it seems silly for a nation threatened by another [or in an active war] to tie up a quarter of a million troops guarding against the remote possibility that a backward, underpopulated, under-equipped poor country along some undeveloped stretch of mountainous border terrain, might rise up to claim/reclaim some parcel of land.

Perhaps - if a border garrison is needed - the new garrison mechanic could be used instead, and on the off chance that the border is crossed, the divisions used there for garrison could be spawned as land units to slow the invasion long enough for reserves to be brought in. If its a matter of players knowing what the AI would do, well... give the AI options, though players will eventually figure out the "tells".