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HoI4 Dev Diary - AI Plans

Hello, and welcome back to the very last feature DD before we release Man the Guns on February 28th. Today we will be showing you a few more details of the AI strategy plans you can set in the Custom Game Rules Menu.

In Waking the Tiger, we created the backend support to give the AI multiple paths it can go down, and in the free 1.6 'Ironclad' update releasing together with Man the Guns, we have expanded this feature by combining it with the Custom game Rules menu, which now allows you to pick which path a country should go down.

Every country with a unique focus tree now has at least two AI strategy plans, depending on the number of branches in the focus tree. You can either pick which plan the AI should follow specifically, let the AI pick a plan at random, or tell the AI to obey the other game settings.

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The setting for an AI overrides all other game settings, so if you check historical focuses but tell the German AI to restore the Kaiser, it will pick Oppose Hitler anyway.

Since this would allow you to set up scenarios that would make some achievements fairly trivial, these settings largely disable achievements.

It should also be noted that this allows you to create combinations that lead to situations we didn’t anticipate when we made some focus trees (“Should Democratic Germany really ally with Communist Hungary to contain Fascist France? What if Britain is Communist?”) or event chains. Given the often mutually-exclusive nature of focus trees and the sheer number of possible combinations, that can lead to situations where one AI can no longer continue its path or things behave in an unexpected way.

Today, we are going to go through a little AAR based on one of the little scenarios people around the office have been using: “How many monarchies can I have at the same time?”

So Germany will bring back the Kaiser, Hungary will restore Austria-Hungary, Romania will aim to achieve Balkan Dominance, Japan will restore the Emperor, Manchukuo will attempt to gain independence, Britain will give support to the King’s Party (Charles II of Romania approves, but is quietly told that is not what that means) and finally the Netherlands will try to support the only man in the Dutch government - Queen Wilhelmina. France is kept as default (so it will react to Imperial Germany), the US and Mexico are set to be random. We will observe from the country of Uruguay.

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Germany kicks off the Monarchist revival with their civil war. As a little sidenote: we have reworked the positioning of the armies at the start of the German Civil War a little to give a more coherent front line. Meanwhile, the Hungarian AI has decided to strengthen the Monarchists, Britain is still building up its industry and Japan is supporting the Kodoha Faction.

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While the German Civil War rages, Britain continues to build up and Hungary is rushing down the branch to restore the monarchy. With Romania set to expand later, that is probably the right choice.

Hitler’s Summer Offensive has the Royalists in Germany on the backfoot for most of 1936 before they manage to contain it. At the same time, Otto von Habsburg has assumed the Hungarian Crown. Incensed by Edward’s insistence to marry Wallis Simpson, the British government has resigned. Manchukuo is still biding its time, building up its industry.

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By October 1936, the Royalist counter-offensive is in full swing and has largely succeeded in restoring the original frontline. Meanwhile, Otto’s first act as King of Hungary is to start an ambitious program of industrial expansion - believing, no doubt, that providing jobs to the Hungarian workers will help build support for his rule.

Surprising many observers, Alf Landon has defeated Roosevelt in the presidential elections and wastes little time in returning the dollar to the gold standard in a bid to undo the damage wrought by the irresponsible policies of his predecessor.

As 1936 turns into 1937, the Royalists in Germany have pushed deep into fascist territory in the South and the far North. The British Empire has broken into pieces as the Dominions have shed the last ties to their former mother country, causing one British Civil Servant to exclaim “Not since Helen of Troy has such misfortune been brought over a great nation by a single woman!” (Churchill, reportedly, remarked “If only she had been single.”)

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About a year after the insurrection started, the writing is on the wall for Hitler. A last-ditch offensive in Mecklenburg has failed with only moderate territorial gains. As the King’s Party solidifies support for the monarchy in Britain, Otto von Habsburg has begun to take the next step on his way to restore the old lands of his dynasty: Turning Hungary into Austria-Hungary by adding Austria through a referendum.

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By early April 1937, the fighting has reached Berlin. Hitler orders all available resources to be thrown in a counterattack under General Steiner, but is informed by his Generals that this attack did not take place. He takes the news with his usual stoicism. The city falls a few days later, and the fascist government does not survive the end of the month.

In Britain, Edward has taken the crown and is evidently preparing a great coronation ceremony. Against all expectations, the people of Austria vote to return to the rule of a Habsburg King.

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The rather hasty departure of India from the British Empire brings the question of the Muslim population in the country to the forefront: worried about a lack of representation, Muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh have taken up arms to defend their freedom. Observers expect a long and bloody struggle.

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By this point, the Civil War in Spain is considered little more than a sidenote, as Alf Landon shocks the world with a strong commitment to a policy he calls simply “America First”.

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The news of a minor incident in the Zeppelin Hindenburg is missed by most major newspapers, although German Princess Victoria Louise has reportedly shown a great interest in it.

Meanwhile in Asia, Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek is preparing a new offensive to finally bring the warlords on the periphery under his control. Emperor Puyi has successfully re-negotiated the relationship to Japan, giving him much more control over internal matters.

As the press in Europe prepares to attend the official ceremony in which King Otto of Hungary is crowned Kaiser of Austria-Hungary and the German Military Government declares its commitment to restoring the monarchy, the central government in China has declared the “Southern Pacification Campaign” against the obstinate Guangxi Clique and the governor of Yunnan.

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The Spanish Civil War ends in a Republican victory. In his first speech as Emperor of Austria, Otto announces that his government will seek to deepen ties with the former provinces of Bohemia and Slovakia, while also extending his warmest congratulations to the German government for defeating “the poisonous snake of fascism” in their country, promising to do what he can to help them in restoring the old order.

Seeing the way the wind is blowing (especially since their traditional ally, France, seems to face a resurgence of communism and may not be available to protect them for much longer), the Czechoslovakian government decides to accept Otto as King of Bohemia and be absorbed again into the resurgent Austria-Hungary. Not to be outdone by his now much larger neighbour, Charles II of Romania takes steps to institute a Royal Dictatorship.

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In India, Pakistan has shocked observers by reversing initial Indian gains and taking the offensive, with fighting now in the outskirts of Delhi. In Manchukuo, Emperor Puyi has purged the General Affairs Council of everyone he suspects of divided loyalties. In neighbouring China, the war in the southern part of the country has ground to a stalemate while Chiang Kai-Shek turns towards what many suspect was his true objective all along: eliminating the small base of the Communist party.

On the 4th of August, 1938, some 20 years after he was forced to abandon his throne, Kaiser Wilhelm II returns to Germany. The world, he remarks, seems to have finally understood why it needs monarchs. Meanwhile, Austria-Hungary, although still technically under the provisions of the Treaty of Trianon, has begun a barely-concealed rearmament program.

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The fortunes of war in India have turned once again, as India has launched a major offensive along the entire front and has pushed back Pakistani forces all along the line.

With the demise of the Hitler government in Germany, fascist Italy is looking increasingly alone on the world stage. This is cemented by diplomatic maneuvering at the highest level, with an exchange of personal letters between Kaiser Wilhelm II and his distant cousin Edward VIII. It appears that both see eye to eye with regards to Italy, and some diplomats even speculate that this is but the first step towards a full-scale alliance between the previous enemies. With France looking increasingly likely to fall to communism, Germany is eager to secure its back while it deals with the communist threat on the continent.

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In the final days of 1938, Indian forces finally crush the last bits of Pakistani resistance and end the long and bitter struggle.

At the start of 1939, the political landscape of Europe has changed quite dramatically. Two monarchs regained the thrones they had lost in 1918, and one has brought back the crown to a level of power not seen in centuries. In the Far East, Emperor Puyi is biding his time, as he knows that Japan must eventually strike against the Soviet Union - and when it does, his moment has come. The King of Romania has cemented his power, and although any attempt to strongarm Hungary is now impossible, he may yet assert his position on the Balkans.


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Meanwhile, in the US, conservative and reactionary elements have made a comeback, leading to a decisive shift to the right of US politics. With the post-war order in Europe collapsing and old thrones being restored, the US starts to prepare for an intervention in Europe, should it come to that.


That’s all for today. Next week we will have a MASSIVE RECAP episode, and then it’s time for the 1.6 Patchlog and Man the Guns release the week after.
 
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Yep. But I'm speaking about establishing monarchy in USA. To show absurdity of situation through understandable analogy.
Yeah a Monarchy wouldn't be possible in the United States unless foreign powers forced it BUT it would require a lot of bloodshed from both sides (mostly American as Americans would almost certainly not let their freedom be taken) in order to do so. A military junta under MacArthur could be possible though unlikely and America would still likely be the same internally although MacArthur would probably instill large amounts of Nationalism, duty to serve in the U.S. military and a sense that surrendering or losing a war is like death.
 
Yeah a Monarchy wouldn't be possible in the United States unless foreign powers forced it BUT it would require a lot of bloodshed from both sides (mostly American as Americans would almost certainly not let their freedom be taken) in order to do so. A military junta under MacArthur could be possible though unlikely and America would still likely be the same internally although MacArthur would probably instill large amounts of Nationalism, duty to serve in the U.S. military and a sense that surrendering or losing a war is like death.

I think Mac is used as a common figure for alternate-history American military juntas, due to his imperiousness, ego, appearance, etc, plus his attempt to overrule Truman's orders during his career-ending debacle in Korea.

Ironically, Mac behaved very sensibly in occupying Japan, and for the most part did a fine job of it, having a hand in building Japan's modern democratic system.
 
If the 99 percent are set in a challengeless environment that barely pushes innovation or opposition to your methods and in reaching your goal. Simply because the main arbiter of that challenge is extemly inferior to adapting and using its assets. Either then letting it cheat or you gimping your own ability. Then yes the 1 percent in this case can be used for effect to improve The 99 percent.

Again the point is to get paradox mainly to shape the behavior of the AI to prioritize and emulate above average behavior. You don’t train your baseball team to mirror the worst player imaginable. You train them to emulate the behaviors of the best players around. It’s not gonna apply for everything but the main elements like industry, trade, production and division design can go along way in its ability to better enhance your experience.
So, you started off a few posts ago talking about how the default game rules should be based off of mp house rules and now moved the goalpost to the ai should act like the "pinnacle" of mp players?

Ok, sure, whatever. I am amazed at the blend of elitism and teenage edge though.
 
I disagree with all. I use to be a modder and only played mods... till I found nirvana. there is something much much better than playing mods

And how can one ascend to this Nirvana of yours whithout modding? :eek:

Ironically, Mac behaved very sensibly in occupying Japan, and for the most part did a fine job of it, having a hand in building Japan's modern democratic system.

He was not stupid and had big ambitions, once Japan had unconditionally surrendered and McArthur made responsible for its occupation then there was no point in doing any kind of action that might invite to a popular revolt in Japan. If that happened he would be held responsible, not the politicians in Washington.

So if he was to conserve his reputation and have any kind of future in American politics then he knew he had to handle the Japanese with a soft hand.
 
This guy is correct about the horrendous state of the vanilla AI but is approaching it from a terrible angle. Forget about multiplayer metagame and player skill and casual/hardcorewhatever label you want to call yourself. The state of the vanilla AI is undeniably atrocious.

The Expert AI mod brings it much closer to what I would consider a minimum acceptable level of competence for an AI in a strategy game. It can only do so much, though, and the amount of hoops the dev has to jump through to accomplish what he is ridiculous.

I understand that AI is hard, but other games are able to do it. Paradox has done it in their other games (not all, Stellaris AI ain't great either) EU4 I think is the best example. Yes, you can nitpick EU4's AI and it's never going to be perfect, but it does a much better job at playing the damn game than HOI4's AI, in my opinion orders of magnitude better competency.

There are things in this game that, due to how Paradox designed it, whether intentionally or not, are absolutely *correct* things to do that AI consistently fails to do.

Something as simple as taking WPA & Silent Workhorse first as USA. No matter what memery you are planning on doing, flipping Communist or playing a serious historical multiplayer game, that is the correct opening move as the USA. But the AI doesn't do it. There are countless other examples. France taking Battleship Focus in 1936, on top of the following:

The AI blatantly *ignores naval tech completely*. Because it's a cheap way of making it better at land war by just not even attempting navy. Yes, I'm sure this will change in Man the Guns, but the game is 3 years old and has been like this since launch. (So, with France taking Battleship Focus in 1936, then they never use the research bonus any ways...)

Speaking of research bonuses, the AI does not really pay any attention to them when deciding focuses or research. They get bonuses from focuses as a consequence of some other factor deciding they should take that focus, and then if they happen to decide that is something they should research at some point the bonus will be used. But they will sit there unused the entire game quite often, or for months or years.

The AI still doesn't understand naval invasions. Germany can't take Norway. Japan rarely takes much in the Pacific. Once again, might change in the Man the Guns, but this game is 3 years old.

I could go on and on. The HOI4 AI is still the game's biggest issue.
 
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it's RTS correct?

not if you are playing MP without pause... it still is speed of how you do things, and the strategy of doing things in the best order

it can be... check out some of the extreme downhill stuff MX bikers do.

subjective. it all depends on the experience vanilla is designed to deliver.

only if the other player is good. My fiancee has no idea how to play and wouldn't be a good challenge
to any player that is good at the game, so apparently your statement isn't true.


both true and false. those that casually enjoy the game would hate it, and those that are addicted would like it
Most of what your arguing over are fine tooth semantics. The overall flaw is that the AI is still dumb and lacks challenge because it remains stupid and incapable to pose a risk. Which either way reduces your enjoyment because you lose out whether you want it to be harder or not.

Hoi4 is a grand strategy game. Sure it has real time elements but that doesn’t compare to the pure RTS of Warcraft and it’s ilk. Either way the AI is still expected to do more here compared to something like age of empires 2. Which is one of those AIs that does stand out in its efficiency and thinking process. That integrates player tactics to gather and judge the intel it aquires to counter or deal with the opposing force.

In any case it has the capability but that requires either a better template to base the behavior on. Or refinement in how that behavior perceives its standing in correspondence to the current systems in place.

Paradox could add different degrees of AI behavior for different skill levels. But knowing most game companies they dont want to do that to avoid the hassle. So they opt for the cheap work around of allowing the AI to cheat or get dumber which to me is flawed. Because fundamentally the behavior is still lame. only now it has 10 dollars to work with when it gets buffed as opposed to 5 or if you make it dumber 3 dollars. Total war does this too and people complain about it to no end because it also falls in this theme of mass producing you to death rather than out strategizing you. Heck it can't even properly manage itself settlement wise depending on the iteration your looking at.

Competitive MP could be a way to glimpse that new template on for people seeking more challenge but don’t necessarily want to play in competitive multiplayer. Because those players have refined their play and can explain their logic in how that was accomplished through both macro and micro skill of their various factors of nation building. Particularly in a setting that pushes said person to develop those strategies and countermeasures or builds in the first place. Something the AI is forever incapable to do itself because it only works in the parameters of the behavior pre set by paradox.
 
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Why can't we just all enjoy the game, where dev time is spend and where the focus of development lies is a decision by PDX, they have all the data they collect, they have their marketing and research department. Arguments that people should not be paid attention to because they are too stupid, cancerous or whatever are not leading this debate anywhere.

PDX needs to make money, so they will adjust development accordingly, if alt-history brings in money we get more alt-history. Doesn't mean we won't get historical accurate focuses/features as well but the focus MUST be where the money is made, because without money no new features for anybody.
What the initial development target of the game was does not matter, CK2 is a completely different game than when it launched, what matters is what brings in money for future developments. If its Space Nazis and UFO's than that is what needs to happen, people can bang their fists on the table and scream but it won't change the economic necessities.
There is always a trickle down, they always want to include new features that modders can use (new congress mechanic for example, ship designer) they develop their game and offer modding tools which is unique on this scale in the gaming industry. Its not the mods versus Vanilla game its the mods+vanilla game versus the alternatives that you should compare.


I seriously hate those horrible posts where people proclaim that PDX should stop making new NF and 2D and 3D art and instead focus on improving the AI. As if putting the graphics people into AI development would solve anything. AI development is complicated if it would not Skynet would have taken over a long time ago, a bigger team does not necessarily mean things get better because its such a complex issue that people need to work together very tightly -slowing the whole process down.
I have never encountered a good AI, that doesn't cheat, in a RTS. I have two decades worth of RTS experience, I have read a ton of books about wars and strategy, have some strategic and tactical training - playing against an AI will never be an extreme challenge for me, so what!? I still enjoy a vanilla game of conquering the world as the Soviet union, if I want a challenge I play against humans. No AI will ever be as challenging as a human, but the game has its good moments, if the AI can use fuel it will lead to a challenging new game, of course after playing 400 hours of HoI4 with MtG it won't be challenging but for the first let's say 50 hours it will be interesting to develop strategies for the various focus trees and new mechanics.

After that there are human players. I will help my friends with the new mechanics and we will play historical, alt-historical and crazy settings. Will be many fun evenings in Teamspeak.

In general this is a pretty good DLC
Alt-history fans get a ton of new NF.
History fans get fuel, London, naval treaty, more complex ship building, better US focus trees, with senate mechanics, etc.

Modders get a ton of new fodder to work with, can't wait to see what Kaiserreich will make with the Senate mechanics.

I have spent to this day 1439 hours in HoI4. I have never ever had so much fun for so little cash in comparison.
 
This is wonderful guys! My only request hence forth is for you to implement the same system on Tanks and Aircraft you have for ships, I would love to piece together my army the way I see fit! Thanks guys!
 
I dont get you, why would everybody play this sandbox game as you would imagine it? i understand 40 width divs are kinda cheesy, but there is no competitiveness in hoi4 since every nation is different, this game would be better in team vs team modes rather than 1v1 who could get the lowest worldtensions and etc. I think it would be better if the community creates their own vision of rules and limits. I am happy that the devs are giving the community the platform and the tools to make it even more customizable. I am happy that they arent limiting our fantasies with their rules for mp, and they are getting more choices to us with MtG.
I don't get you either. They themselves acknowledged they will take popular concessions of rules and put them in game. So in essence they are going tot take our "non competitive" parameters to enhance the game and mod them in as an option for people to use as they wish. Thats not making you use our means or telling them to play our way. Thats just telling them "hey want to see why this is so fun and what our logic is behind X rule? Come play with us instead of just solely taking the keys to the car and driving away!" Apparently that is too elitist of me. Also I am genuinely curious how specific of a rule they will include in the general public and what tools they can add to instill so we can expand upon rules that may require new such tools. Or are they just gonna make the modders figure it out?
 
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So, you started off a few posts ago talking about how the default game rules should be based off of mp house rules and now moved the goalpost to the ai should act like the "pinnacle" of mp players?

Ok, sure, whatever. I am amazed at the blend of elitism and teenage edge though.
No I was more extending the olive branch to get Paradox to play with us and try out our methods first hand. Instead of just reluctantly adding a rule here or there if it so happens to get trendy or not. Ya know kinda like how no mans land happened. While at the same encouraging them to take the time and the opportunity to see how a variety of high level players approach the game and how that can maybe tie into future AI behavior or feature development. So its performance might increase and the challenge it can instill deepens. Considering these guys play ya know alot Vs. a ton of people in a high stakes high reward game for 8 hour long lengths with thousands of hours under their belt. I think they have a few things to offer and suggest based on the simple fact they do alot of trial and error amongst themselves and try to outwit the other everyday in the week.

But ya know I suppose just asking for that is too "eLitiSt!" The amount of pure angst coming from you is tedious. You got issue with Competitive multiplayer fine. But quite this mob mentality mindset like somehow that makes you innately right and me innately wrong. It's just dumb.
 
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I suppose it's high time I made this statement.

Looking through the numerous HOI4 overhaul communities, on Reddit and Discord, while many do have legitimate criticisms, there is this overwhelming arrogance that pervades them, particularly Kaiserreich.

A large part of the Kaiserreich fandom has never played vanilla, refuses to do so, and is under the impression that the entire KR dev team could single-handledly replace the HOI4 team altogether and the game would sell millions. The KR dev team do try to emphasize that credit should be given to the HOI4 devs for creating the base game and so many new mechanics, but they are often drowned out by the community. Any suggestion that vanilla can be playable or is improving is dismissed as garbage from corporate boot-lickers, or outright lies. When the newest development on vanilla comes out, people claim that it'll never surpass KR. Nevermind that KR has so much more time to focus on research and making trees, and not having to allocate large amounts of time to making the base game from the ground up.

Same goes for a lot of other total overhaul mod communities. It's why I've had to distance myself from many of them. Apparently it's wrong to enjoy vanilla now, and those who do so are total idiots.

I can respect criticism from those who have played vanilla extensively and found faults. But if you just play one game of vanilla, give up and spend the rest of your time trashing it, I will not listen.

I agree with you. It seems Kaiserreich is something of an outlier though.

If you have spent any amount of time on the KR Subreddit or their discord, one gets the impression that the 13-17 year old demographic is disproportionately represented. It would be interesting to see the demographic information. It would not surprise me at all if the average poster here on the HoI 4 forum was 10-20 years older than the average user of the KR subreddit.

Personally, I don't like playing Kaiserreich anymore. They keep tinkering with the balance in what I think are foolish and annoying ways to serve as a bandaid for poor game performance(lag) and poor AI. Since their big American Civil War overhaul, they've dramatically increased the production cost of infantry equipment while simultaneously increasing the infantry equipment requirement of each battalion by 50%. It has the end effect of making the game even something of an infantry spam where tanks and planes have little to no place. That this has been accepted mostly without complaint by their fanbase I think says a lot about most of the sort of people that play it.
 
Yeah a Monarchy wouldn't be possible in the United States unless foreign powers forced it BUT it would require a lot of bloodshed from both sides (mostly American as Americans would almost certainly not let their freedom be taken) in order to do so. A military junta under MacArthur could be possible though unlikely and America would still likely be the same internally although MacArthur would probably instill large amounts of Nationalism, duty to serve in the U.S. military and a sense that surrendering or losing a war is like death.
Same comes for monarchy in Soviet Union/Russia. You can build a military autocracy without foreign intervention, if you act quick but careful during takeover. Sure, you will lose a lot of politically important people in the process, to prevent them creating opposition but, let's assume, that someone to replace them can be found.

Monarchy can be forced only through military defeat of Soviets. And it will hold only on the the fact, that "Tsar" would be heavily guarded by soldiers of foreign power, being at war with Soviets. Or, well, mercenaries from White emigrants. I predict heavy resistance to any attempt of "restoring old orders" - while there sure would be someone to collaborate with occupants and new monarchists, majority of people either supported bolsheviks during Civil war, because disliked status-quo before 1917 (and not willing to be purged in some long coming revenge of Whites), or were born after Revolution and Civil war, which means that they KNOW - bolsheviks were right, Whites are bad, Motherland calls to fight back.
 
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As opposed to your argument being subjective? You've indicated your opinion multiple times, is there something new that you wish to convey?
Whatever man at this point rather obvious you got a predisposed opinion and your not gonna dislodge yourself from the hill no matter what. Everything to you at this point could be conflated with subjective dialogue and you just gonna file through the gaps for no other reason then to be tedious while avoiding the main problem that the Ai still is incredibly flawed in its approach to the game and how it manages the systems in place. Cause ya know Japan making 14 variants of light tank 1s instead of being programed to be smart enough to recognize "Hey instead of wasting all this army XP on a vehicle that clearly isn't making enough impact why don't I research light tank 2 and improve on that instead!" All while losing mainland china. But ya I suppose that is just exemplary thinking on the AIs part and allowing tremendous strides to be made according to you right?

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All while leaving on 1 factory on it to produce it. Genius. Absolute 8d chess player. Good job Ai.

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obvious you got a predisposed opinion
Oh so now you know what my thoughts are? Interesting, because I've not once said what my position or opinion is. All I have done is point out you keep making statements as facts, that are not actually facts. But way to spin this as me having a opinion that I'm not going to dislodge from, as opposed to the reality of the situation.

Again, do you have something new to say, or will you just repeat the same opinion?
 
I agree with you. It seems Kaiserreich is something of an outlier though.

If you have spent any amount of time on the KR Subreddit or their discord, one gets the impression that the 13-17 year old demographic is disproportionately represented. It would be interesting to see the demographic information. It would not surprise me at all if the average poster here on the HoI 4 forum was 10-20 years older than the average user of the KR subreddit.

I'd...honestly say that's definitely the case. The discord's a better place now, at least - the political channel that attracted so many edgy teenagers and their violent ideologies was deleted for too many pointless fights. And attempts to put the 2nd ACW in a "good vs evil" narrative. Plus various awful things I won't elaborate on, as they're too toxic to be openly discussed.

The once-excellent subreddit, sadly, is now a cesspool.