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HOI4 Dev Diary - Intel

Hi everyone! Next to last dev diary before christmas, and today we are going to talk about intel. We have been talking about ways to get intel a bit in previous diaries, like code cracking, scout planes and spies but not really talked about the system as a whole. So lets get to it!

Before intel was based essentially on comparing two nations crypto tech levels and it was a flat value covering everything. To make this more interesting we are splitting it into 4 separate values: Civilian/Industry Intel, Army Intel, Navy Intel, Air Intel. These affect what you can see in our new intel ledger, that replaces the little intel bit in the diplomacy interface from before for people with La Resistance:
upload_2019-12-11_12-24-29.png

Each of the tabs cover each type of intel (here we have civilian/industry selected), and they also come with mapmode information. As an example in the one above we aggregate building values as you zoom out (if you zoom in you see the same by state). This can help you when figuring out where to bomb or where and what kind of sabotage can be most effective.

The more intel you have the more information is displayed, we break down the levels in a tooltip per category:
upload_2019-12-11_12-37-57.png

So right now I can see how many army techs have been researched, but not specifically which. That requires 70% but then you can look at their tech tree. If I had 5% more I could see roughly how many of each division template the other nation had. At the moment I can only see that they exist but no real info about what they contain.

The army intel tab also lets you get a breakdown of the enemy stockpile of equipment.

Naval and air are similar:
upload_2019-12-11_12-44-10.png


upload_2019-12-11_12-44-42.png


Naval intel mapmode is quite powerful and at high intel levels will let you see where the enemy is placing certain missions
upload_2019-12-11_13-2-10.png


Intel can come from many different sources, for example:
- Spy networks
- Infiltrated spy assets
- Captured enemy spies
- Radar
- Broken Ciphers
- Scout planes
- Fighting the enemy in land combat
- Fighting the enemy in air combat
- Fighting the enemy in naval combat
And probably some I forgot.

Each source has a max it can contribute and may affect different intel values in different ways. For example if you have a spy network over the enemies coast, or scout naval areas with traffic you will get more naval intel. Each source also decays over time so its important to actively do things to keep your intel levels current and make sure you combine many sources to get as much intel as possible.

Here I have multiple sources:
upload_2019-12-11_13-17-34.png

Do note that the biggest chunk here is me doing some quick events with rewards of intel to cheat my way to quick screenshots ;). Also note that simply being democratic and having open trade laws make hiding the civilian part of your intel hard.

Knowing what kind of build strategy, templates, tech and stockpile an enemy has can be very useful allowing you to counter and attack them in the best way possible, but there is also direct advantage from relative intel which replaces the crypto level comparison from before.
upload_2019-12-11_13-35-41.png


See you next week for more cool stuff, and don't forget to tune into twitch at 16:00CET where we will be showing of France for the first time (aka watch Daniel accidentally leak stuff).
 
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Will this prevent multiplayer exploit of viewing other nations equipment thought the lend lease option or at least make it only available to people in the same faction can view it? I would like to keep that "Intel" secret thanks XD
 
I would agree for peace time, but in war times?
I'm not sure if the USA printed a newspaper in 1942 to tell Japan "yes, we build approx 30 Essex CV to wipe you out"

I believe the US did almost something like that. They gave numbers for planes, tanks, ships they would build in speches to congress IIRC.
But seriously, wartime is different. There should be a fog of war. But all nations gave some information, even in wartime, like sinking of capital ships. It was too visible and there where too many people involved/lost to keep it secret. The sinking of ships like Hood, Graf Spee, Arizona and other capital ships was pretty acuratly reported in newspapers and radio. Deployment and operation of new ships was a secret. But it's hard to keep the building of something like Tirpitz a secret. It was just too visible on all levels.
 
This is either going to be really awesome or just introduce new mechanics that don't fully capitalize on their potential. It really depends on whether the AI is programmed with the capacity to utilize these new mechanics or whether they can only be competently harnassed by human players (e.g., the incompetent AI for naval deployment/production/research that shipped with MtG--and then absolutely refusing to address these obvious shortcomings with much-needed a patch*). If the AI doesn't deliver, then the whole DLC is all rather pointless for SP.

Personally, I'm going to hold off on ordering until the community provides feedback on the quality of the AI (and the product in general). Hopefully, I'll be surprised and will buy the DLC a month or two after release, but given PDX's recent track record of shipping incomplete products, I'm not optimistic.

*-For example, in this very thread, a question regarding whether fixes to the naval AI would be addressed was again ignored.
 
This is either going to be really awesome or just introduce new mechanics that don't fully capitalize on their potential. It really depends on whether the AI is programmed with the capacity to utilize these new mechanics or whether they can only be competently harnassed by human players (e.g., the incompetent AI for naval deployment/production/research that shipped with MtG--and then absolutely refusing to address these obvious shortcomings with much-needed a patch*). If the AI doesn't deliver, then the whole DLC is all rather pointless for SP.
Podcat already confirmed the AI is not doing anything substantial with the information, "it's certainly possible in the future":
Ai uses intel for evaluating numbers and stuff in the background. Other than that we havent done any specific ai strategies for this atm, although its certainly possible in the future. Its the kind of thing that takes quite a bit of time.
I recommend you stay away.
To make this more interesting we are splitting it into 4 separate values: Civilian/Industry Intel, Army Intel, Navy Intel, Air Intel. These affect what you can see in our new intel ledger, that replaces the little intel bit in the diplomacy interface from before for people with La Resistance
So the GUI remains unchanged without LaR?

Did you do anything to balance intel values w/o LaR or will countries just have much lower intel across the board?
 
Features look very exciting but I already have a concern about the "global" nature of intel: as there is a single global number, looks like fighting and flying scout sentries over Africa gives you intel on factories, troops and ships missions on British mainland. That feels quite immersion-breaking, especially for naval intel and seeing missions.
Or is there a "local" intel value that is affected by the global value but is more significantly modified by the intel gained in-place?
 
@podcat - this looks VERY Impressive. It will be a challenge for the AI to use it effectively, helping the AI be more competitive with this feature (not less competitive). Here is my question bombardment:

1. Land Intel gives Supply routes? Is this the supply area mode? Or are there going to be even more tidbits?

2. OK, this is indeed great for your enemy. But what about ALLIES?? I saw a response previously from you, good that you can see allied stockpiles, but there is much more info that is useful from your allies. Therefore, the million ruble question is, will you have 100% Intel on ALLIES, and what about the ALLIED faction and SOV faction? Will there be any Intel there, given that the ALLIES need to Lend Lease to SOV to help save them from GER. For ALLIED->SOV Intel, ALTEAST give free the Intel level showing Stockpiles. Anything else would be nice to have, helpingan allied player assess SOV's situation....but of course can be exploited if the ALLIES wish to attack SOV (hence, SOV really should only give the info the ALLIES need, like their stockpiles....OR, you can fix Lend Lease so that SOV Requests LL Properly).

3. What about obtaining Intel concerning enemy movements? Troop Movements (like Strat Relos), Troop convoys (highly highly secretive, should be to the highest level of naval intel), enemy ship locations, etc?

4. What about Military Production? I see that you can see how many MIL factories are assigned to non-tanks, tanks, and aircraft. But this should be for a small or small-medium amount of civilian industry Intel. Higher levels should let you look at their production queues, with various amounts of granularity. Am I outproducing my enemy in tanks? In fighters? These are critical questions, just not the numbers fielded and stockpiled. I mean if you can see their stockpile, you can figure out their production rates, as you can deduce that from enemy losses (which would be an absolute PITA to do, but in game losses are indeed accurate, no? Or will enemy losses be Intel based as well?)

5. What about Intel SHARING? Anything my scouts/planes/battles report, I am sharing it with my allies. Therefore is allied Intel level ALL the same? UK will always have the SAME EXACT intel levels as the USA?? Of course, this wasn't historically accurate, not EVERYTHING was shared. Even though UK didn't share 100% ULTRA info, even the UK commanders didn't get 100% ULTRA info - the US probably got to see everything that their UK counterparts saw, released from the ULTRA team. I'm sure US shared some MAGIC info with the UK Admiralty however.

6. Will there be any specific Event/Decision/Mechanic for reproducing ULTRA/Bletchley? Will UK get "Intel" bonuses via NFs? Will USA get any (in a side of the tree thats USEFUL, I never use the MAGIC side of the US Tree). Or is it going to be GENERIC, meaning one primary reasons the allies won, will be accessible by any nation (beating their cipher)?


So, going back to my questions from last week, updated:

7. Sea Regions have their own Intel Values. Scout Planes help increase this correct? What about CVs in the region performing ANY mission, with aircraft on carrier mission. They are up in the sky patrolling when there is no combat, will this help Intel for that region? That will help/simulate Carriers hunting for subs when on Escort Missions (or any mission frankly, like Patrol(S&D), or even on Invasion Support), helping to close the Atlantic Gap. A fleet with Carriers, should ALWAYS ALWAYS have superior positioning in combat against a fleet that doesn't, due to the advanced warning. Naval/Ship RADAR should also help positioning.

8. What about Naval Bombers assigned to a region. Can we get some Intel here? I know currently, they don't use fuel or attack until a target is spotted, but this is a bit ludicrous, as Naval Bombers were the PRIMARY source of Airbased Naval Intel (unless you are in the middle of an Ocean).

9. Does your Naval Region's Naval Intel level reflect AT ALL, ships on Patrol/spotting missions? Patrol Missions should be MUCH MUCH more effective if there is existing Intel in that region, especially if it came from AIRCRAFT based Intel. You know where the enemy IS NOT, atleast, which DRASTICALLY narrows the region coverage. As well, as I asked last week, and from what I can tell....Air based Intel will not launch a Strike Mission or a Naval Bomber Strike, but it ATLEAST should INCREDIBLY help the Naval ship spotters, which seem to be the only way to do this today.

10. However, know I realize, how the heck did Naval Bomber attacks launch in the first place? Based on what? Regardless, in the current game, we have Naval Strikes which launch on their own. How will that happen in the new system? Based on INTEL I imagine??? Also, with the higher amounts of Intel, you should have a LARGER % amount of planes appear on target (up to a limit of specific province to provice range limits).

11. How will all of this affect Naval Invasions? Will the AI now send the RIGHT amount of troops to do the job, if it has good Intel?? If bad Intel, will it send overkill amount of troops to make sure?? What about invasion defense? Will we still get the "Naval Invasion" warning popping up giving you obscene amounts of reaction time, or is ALL of that now based on Intel...if you have good Intel, you will see it coming for days, if bad Intel, you won't know until they hit the beach? Any finally, if there is advanced warning, will the AI rush troops in to the targetted province? And during an invasion, if an invasion is going on, will ANY ship assigned to that region move to the invasion sea zone, and immediately attack the invasion force due to proximity spotting (I hate not being able to attack or find an enemy invasion fleet, and its silly that you must put TFs on Convoy Raiding to attack troop ships unloading troops on the beach)?

12. OK, aircraft in combat give 'some' Intel. Now we have this silly teleportation mechanism. Will Strat Bombers bombing the heart of Germany give the same amount of Intel over ANY STATE they teleport through? If you fly across a Sea Region (like Sicily based aircraft attacking Africa) for a mission (ala teleport), would you get Intel on that Sea Region? I mean, forget about altitude changing to be more fuel efficient at high altitudes for cruising...that's related to jets engines (I think).
 
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I am not buying it until substantial improvements have been done to make the AI somewhat functional with the previous dlc features. No need for shiney new stuff if the player can ignore it in SP.
 
How badly does the AI handle the changes you are making? And will you patch the game if it turns out that you failed miserably like with MtG and the naval AI?
 
Will democracies get any sort of bonuses to intel-gathering/operations? Given how they were ultimately victorious against fascist intelligence, hiding their cyphers and successfully cracking the enemy's, and attracting lots of defectors from the dictatorships.

Right now it seems Germany & Axis are gaining another ahistorical buff for no reason (other than the devs loving fascist gameplay I assume).

At the moment it seems the spymaster gets 1 extra spy per country in the faction. If this includes government in exile the allies should be swimming in spies towards the end of the war.

That's a lot of counterspies to catch anything the axis try. (USSR is probably a bit screwed)
 
At the moment it seems the spymaster gets 1 extra spy per country in the faction. If this includes government in exile the allies should be swimming in spies towards the end of the war.

That's a lot of counterspies to catch anything the axis try. (USSR is probably a bit screwed)

When the SU finally gets its NF tree redesigned, I hope they will add some national spirit to help recruit double-agents or accelerate the creation of spy networks.

There were lots of communist sympathizers, specially in Europe, during the war.
 
So with enough of intel we will see how the AI ignores naval techs and doctrines :D
I guess the positive side is that we don't have to tag switch as often :D
 
When the SU finally gets its NF tree redesigned, I hope they will add some national spirit to help recruit double-agents or accelerate the creation of spy networks.

There were lots of communist sympathizers, specially in Europe, during the war.
SOV should get a BIG boost to # agents, based on puppets/satellites after the war. The additions of cultures should make agents more available, just like UK getting a boost from GIEs. Except after the war, UK should lose all those GEI bonuses and SOV doesn’t as it should take all the resources of NATO to counter the KGB.
 
On the Air Intel Ledger, wouldn't be more useful to do exactly like with its Naval counterpart i.e. placing the wings count on the left (currently conspicuously absent), and the number of planes and personnel on the right?
 
I don't understand the confusion about naval numbers. Any capital ship financed, builded and enroled was a front page news article in all nations of the world - and still is. Everything that happend to them was a matter of national pride. Repair and upgrades was wiedly reported. Even during the war. Seeing France having 3 to 6 BB as Germany requires a lack of ability to read French newspapers. Sorry, but BB, CV, HC and even LC should be known as long as your diplomats have funding to buy a newspaper. You should know numbers, names and operational status.
Except that isn't true. Japan for instance hid the financing of the Yamato class BBs by allocating their funding as a series of other ships, part of the reason that hull numbers are skipped in the Japanese Ship lists. For that matter, facts about their stats were hidden so well that the Yamato's armament was still being reported as 9x16-inch guns 4 months after she was sunk, they were still being reported as only 45k-tons, about the only thing that was correct was the length, almost everything else was grossly underestimated.