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HOI4 Dev Diary - Intel

Hi everyone! Next to last dev diary before christmas, and today we are going to talk about intel. We have been talking about ways to get intel a bit in previous diaries, like code cracking, scout planes and spies but not really talked about the system as a whole. So lets get to it!

Before intel was based essentially on comparing two nations crypto tech levels and it was a flat value covering everything. To make this more interesting we are splitting it into 4 separate values: Civilian/Industry Intel, Army Intel, Navy Intel, Air Intel. These affect what you can see in our new intel ledger, that replaces the little intel bit in the diplomacy interface from before for people with La Resistance:
upload_2019-12-11_12-24-29.png

Each of the tabs cover each type of intel (here we have civilian/industry selected), and they also come with mapmode information. As an example in the one above we aggregate building values as you zoom out (if you zoom in you see the same by state). This can help you when figuring out where to bomb or where and what kind of sabotage can be most effective.

The more intel you have the more information is displayed, we break down the levels in a tooltip per category:
upload_2019-12-11_12-37-57.png

So right now I can see how many army techs have been researched, but not specifically which. That requires 70% but then you can look at their tech tree. If I had 5% more I could see roughly how many of each division template the other nation had. At the moment I can only see that they exist but no real info about what they contain.

The army intel tab also lets you get a breakdown of the enemy stockpile of equipment.

Naval and air are similar:
upload_2019-12-11_12-44-10.png


upload_2019-12-11_12-44-42.png


Naval intel mapmode is quite powerful and at high intel levels will let you see where the enemy is placing certain missions
upload_2019-12-11_13-2-10.png


Intel can come from many different sources, for example:
- Spy networks
- Infiltrated spy assets
- Captured enemy spies
- Radar
- Broken Ciphers
- Scout planes
- Fighting the enemy in land combat
- Fighting the enemy in air combat
- Fighting the enemy in naval combat
And probably some I forgot.

Each source has a max it can contribute and may affect different intel values in different ways. For example if you have a spy network over the enemies coast, or scout naval areas with traffic you will get more naval intel. Each source also decays over time so its important to actively do things to keep your intel levels current and make sure you combine many sources to get as much intel as possible.

Here I have multiple sources:
upload_2019-12-11_13-17-34.png

Do note that the biggest chunk here is me doing some quick events with rewards of intel to cheat my way to quick screenshots ;). Also note that simply being democratic and having open trade laws make hiding the civilian part of your intel hard.

Knowing what kind of build strategy, templates, tech and stockpile an enemy has can be very useful allowing you to counter and attack them in the best way possible, but there is also direct advantage from relative intel which replaces the crypto level comparison from before.
upload_2019-12-11_13-35-41.png


See you next week for more cool stuff, and don't forget to tune into twitch at 16:00CET where we will be showing of France for the first time (aka watch Daniel accidentally leak stuff).
 
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Thank you for the info! Yes, it seems multiple resources affect it, mostly CIV factories it seems. Even Political power is used to make a spymaster, I hope they minimalize the use of political power for espionage. It seems the current state of the game with the decision system already has the political power drained enough.

If the devs and/or modders want, it's very easy to tweak the rate at which PP is accrued, so that some of these can be accommodated, while still being able to do the same things as before. Or they may decide to leave them the same, and make the decision making process even tougher so you just have to sacrifice something to build up a good spy agency.
 
If the devs and/or modders want, it's very easy to tweak the rate at which PP is accrued, so that some of these can be accommodated, while still being able to do the same things as before. Or they may decide to leave them the same, and make the decision making process even tougher so you just have to sacrifice something to build up a good spy agency.

Only risk is that it might unbalance the game for people not using political power for espionage (or not using the espionage system at all) if they increast the PP gain , the rest of the game will need rebalancing then too.
 
Only risk is that it might unbalance the game for people not using political power for espionage (or not using the espionage system at all), the rest of the game will need rebalancing then too.

I don't see that as unbalancing, I see that as a tradeoff decision.
 
These affect what you can see in our new intel ledger, that replaces the little intel bit in the diplomacy interface from before for people with La Resistance:

Super confused (and I gotta admit, disappointed) now about what is in the patch and what is in the DLC for the next update. I would have thought that the Intel system would get expanded upon for everyone (as it's a game system which already exists) but the new ways of interacting with it (Intelligence agency etc) would be reserved for the DLC?

Some bullet-point clarity would be appreciated!
 
IMO intel shouldn't be the prime concern to change trade laws. That has huge production/construction ramifications. The Intel side affects, should be a minor consideration, although they have smartly taken them into Intel's affect. Axis goes limited/closed far earlier than the allies, due to construction/production reasons, and this will help the Axis fend off the allied intel in the early stages of the war. By the time the allies need to switch to limited trade, the axis won't be worries about any offensive espionage operations, they would probably be concentrating exclusively of defensive measures.

I was thinking more in terms of the Comintern, where this does make sense and they would have fraternal trading too.
 
What benefit is there to knowing the enemy’s doctrine if doctrines are all more or less the same(particularly naval), or at least are just a series of boni that you race to get, similar to encryption. Ie is this expansion going to revise how doctrines interact with one another?
 
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The Japanese went to GREAT lengths to hide the Yamato construction. IIRC, the drydock was covered and the site that the guns were tested was in a huge cave, hidden from ariel intel. This can be reflected by Japan's limited trade (and frankly their should be some other non-cipher counter-espionage buffs, as the Japanese had been historically a very closed society forEVER). If figure by the time it comes to the 1940-ish decision for the US to pick Carriers or BBs, it or the UK shouldn't be anywhere near being able to spy on Japan. And hopefully the slightly altered US Focus Tree will change the MAGIC Decrypt (should now be Naval Intel vs. Japan) buffs to be "at war" required...a severe oversight from MtG.

I don't think the devs are interested in historical things like that, or defense of any kind. I've been arguing this point on every Dev diary and every time they shrug off defense like it doesn't matter at all. I gave up. I don't expect them to care about defense against spying. Most likely you will not be to hide anything, even if it was done historically.
 
Another really solid dev diary. Some of this information has been sorely missing for a while now, and will be greatly appreciated. Equipment stockpiles in particular are a good addition, as there's been plenty of times when I've thought I've worn down an enemy only to tag switch to them to see that have shortages of nearly everything, but have a stockpile of 2 million guns.

Some other info I hope you'll add:
  • Enemy convoy routes.
  • Enemy trade partners. It's not obvious that Germany can import hundreds of oil from Iraq and Iran, which I only discovered by tag-switching one game. I now know it's important to deal with this in some way in my campaigns, but I feel it's a common noob-trap especially for those who only play on ironman and can't freely tag switch to see what's going on.
  • Mobilization progress. If I look at an enemy and see they have All Adults Serve, there's a big difference between them being at 10.1% recruitable pop, and having been fully mobilized at 20%. This would also be good for puppets when using their manpower. I shouldn't need to guess in that instance.
This! This! It confirms my suspicions!
Sorry for the abruptness. Here's the background.
B-17's, B-24's, A, B, and C variants blasting all of Europe from Brest to Eastern Poland with 500 lb, 1000 lb, 2000 lb bombs. I go after infrastructure for the first three months, trying to interrupt the German supply lines and their allies. After then I switch to military factories, trying to draw the Luftwaffe out so that I ruin their petroleum use projections in defending valuable targets and trying to make it easier for the USSR. But the Luftwaffe only defends German airspace, the Benelux, and Northern France. Vichy France? Hungary? Romania? Italy? Screw them all, says Goering.
The USSR fell in 1943, I was battering against the Atlantikwall without result, launching invasions against Wilhelmshaven, the Kiel Canal, Pas-de-Calais, even down in Bordeaux. They all became Dieppe Raids against 25-30 divisions massing 500+ guns against my Marines, Rangers, and Army National Guard divisions. I quit without fanfare, and haven't played against AI Hitler since then.
Fuel was the key. I drew the Luftwaffe out, but never made a ding in their fuel. Not once did I come close to contesting the air over Berlin or Hamburg, even after committing all bombers and both fighter types to battle, irrespective of casualties.
Thanks to you, I know what is necessary. I must sever the land routes between Berlin and Baghdad. I can't declare war on the Middle East as democratic USA, recent history notwithstanding. So I'll attack into the Balkans and use tanks, Rangers, paratroops, and mechanized infantry to fight my way to the Black Sea. Hopefully the USSR with lend leased rifles can hold them away from Stalingrad and the Caucasus. I'll use strategic bombers to annihilate the infrastructure there in the meantime while I fight to gain a logistical base.
 
This! This! It confirms my suspicions!
Sorry for the abruptness. Here's the background.
B-17's, B-24's, A, B, and C variants blasting all of Europe from Brest to Eastern Poland with 500 lb, 1000 lb, 2000 lb bombs. I go after infrastructure for the first three months, trying to interrupt the German supply lines and their allies. After then I switch to military factories, trying to draw the Luftwaffe out so that I ruin their petroleum use projections in defending valuable targets and trying to make it easier for the USSR. But the Luftwaffe only defends German airspace, the Benelux, and Northern France. Vichy France? Hungary? Romania? Italy? Screw them all, says Goering.
The USSR fell in 1943, I was battering against the Atlantikwall without result, launching invasions against Wilhelmshaven, the Kiel Canal, Pas-de-Calais, even down in Bordeaux. They all became Dieppe Raids against 25-30 divisions massing 500+ guns against my Marines, Rangers, and Army National Guard divisions. I quit without fanfare, and haven't played against AI Hitler since then.
Fuel was the key. I drew the Luftwaffe out, but never made a ding in their fuel. Not once did I come close to contesting the air over Berlin or Hamburg, even after committing all bombers and both fighter types to battle, irrespective of casualties.
Thanks to you, I know what is necessary. I must sever the land routes between Berlin and Baghdad. I can't declare war on the Middle East as democratic USA, recent history notwithstanding. So I'll attack into the Balkans and use tanks, Rangers, paratroops, and mechanized infantry to fight my way to the Black Sea. Hopefully the USSR with lend leased rifles can hold them away from Stalingrad and the Caucasus. I'll use strategic bombers to annihilate the infrastructure there in the meantime while I fight to gain a logistical base.
There is a UK/SOV National Focus for DOWing Iran and Iraq, to keep the oil out of the Axis hands. Look at their trees and see if they are progressing towards it. Historically however, the owners of the Oil Companies there were westerners, and would never dream of trading with the Axis during war.

Yes, cutting off Axis fuel is the best way to begin to beat them. Synth Plants work GREAT for Germany's rubber needs, but even with all of the techs researched, it just doesn't supply them with enough fuel to keep all of their Air Power on Air Superiority forever, which is a big part of the Soviet Counter Offensive, controlling the skies.
 
I don't think the devs are interested in historical things like that, or defense of any kind. I've been arguing this point on every Dev diary and every time they shrug off defense like it doesn't matter at all. I gave up. I don't expect them to care about defense against spying. Most likely you will not be to hide anything, even if it was done historically.

Ways to gain Intel:
  • Fighting the enemy
  • Sending airplanes over their territory in general
  • Sending agents to form spy networks
  • Radar
  • Decrypting enemy's cipher
  • Arresting enemy spies and cracking them
Ways to prevent the enemy to gain intel:
  • Taking down their planes from your skies
  • Putting agents to run counter-intelligence operations
  • Improving your cypher.
  • Sending double agents back to their country of origin

So, tell me again how there's no defense and there's nothing a player can do to prevent the enemy from gaining intel.

Granted, there's nothing much you could do against radar (except maybe sending strategic bombers to destroy them?) and fighting the enemy works both ways, so both sides would be gaining intel from this.
I guess divisions that have some kind of recon regiment would gain more and maybe some partisan regiment could be created for fascists/communists country to prevent the enemy from gaining more intel, this could be hand waived as the partisans making sure battle plans get destroyed, key officers get to escape or a killed/ kill themselves to prevent plans getting into enemies' hands?
 
  • Taking down their planes from your skies
  • Putting agents to run counter-intelligence operations
  • Improving your cypher.
  • Sending double agents back to their country of origin

So, tell me again how there's no defense and there's nothing a player can do to prevent the enemy from gaining intel.

Granted, there's nothing much you could do against radar (except maybe sending strategic bombers to destroy them?) and fighting the enemy works both ways, so both sides would be gaining intel from this.
I guess divisions that have some kind of recon regiment would gain more and maybe some partisan regiment could be created for fascists/communists country to prevent the enemy from gaining more intel, this could be hand waived as the partisans making sure battle plans get destroyed, key officers get to escape or a killed/ kill themselves to prevent plans getting into enemies' hands?
  • Taking down their planes from your skies
You can't. They can fly them at peace and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Nothing. So...
No, you can't clear the sky's of planes you are unable to shoot down. The devs have said you can't.
  • Putting agents to run counter-intelligence operations
You can't. You can put them on "passive" defense which is not actually counter-intelligence. There is nothing you can do to discover and respond to specific threats. You are at the mercy of whatever the enemy plans to do to you and there is no way to actively defend yourself with counter-intelligence.
  • Improving your cypher.
Yeah, that's something, but I'd does not put a cover over your dockyard to hide the fact that you have a superheavy battleship researched and building. It does not conceal what you're doing. It's not actually labeling anything top secret. It's not much.
  • Sending double agents back to their country of origin.
This is not defense. It's actually the opposite of defense. This is an offensive action. I can't believe I have to explain that but yeah.... That's not defense.
 
Ways to gain Intel:
  • Fighting the enemy
  • Sending airplanes over their territory in general
  • Sending agents to form spy networks
  • Radar
  • Decrypting enemy's cipher
  • Arresting enemy spies and cracking them
Ways to prevent the enemy to gain intel:
  • Taking down their planes from your skies
  • Putting agents to run counter-intelligence operations
  • Improving your cypher.
  • Sending double agents back to their country of origin

So, tell me again how there's no defense and there's nothing a player can do to prevent the enemy from gaining intel.

Granted, there's nothing much you could do against radar (except maybe sending strategic bombers to destroy them?) and fighting the enemy works both ways, so both sides would be gaining intel from this.
I guess divisions that have some kind of recon regiment would gain more and maybe some partisan regiment could be created for fascists/communists country to prevent the enemy from gaining more intel, this could be hand waived as the partisans making sure battle plans get destroyed, key officers get to escape or a killed/ kill themselves to prevent plans getting into enemies' hands?

in some previous diaries they said that counter-inteliggence will be the cheapest operation to run, so the player that want ignore spy stuff and just defend will be in a confortable position.;
 
in some previous diaries they said that counter-inteliggence will be the cheapest operation to run, so the player that want ignore spy stuff and just defend will be in a confortable position.;
But you can't do anything with it. It's just in the background and you have to hope and pray - not a good stratagy. There is nothing you can do to actively defend yourself.
 
we will have full intel of our allies stuff?

Cuz the most annoying thing in the current version is the "blind lend lease", that desincentive a efficient lend lease. i have to choose to time consuming alt-tab to every allied, or blindly lend-lease like 10k rifles for everyone....., but the problems get worse which no-cheap resources like convoys, i just can't throw convoys to all my allies.
 
Will democracies get any sort of bonuses to intel-gathering/operations? Given how they were ultimately victorious against fascist intelligence, hiding their cyphers and successfully cracking the enemy's, and attracting lots of defectors from the dictatorships.

Right now it seems Germany & Axis are gaining another ahistorical buff for no reason (other than the devs loving fascist gameplay I assume).

Edit: Looks like I triggered the pro-fascist crowd. Sorry fellas, the Allies cracked every major Axis code and beat the crap out of them. Germany & co couldn't even correctly calculate the true power of the USSR and got their ass kicked for it.

the buff already exists and its on research superiority, probably research crypto related will be reworked.
 
I m not quite sure, did anyone understand what resources are used for doing spy actions?

Is it civ industry? Political power? A new resource that generates up the top of the screen?
They haven't said everything that is required for every mission, but:
1) Civilian Factories are used to build and upgrade the Agency, but not apparently to perform missions/operations/etc.
2) At least one mission requires 1 transport aircraft.
3) I think I also saw Infantry Equipment and Support Equipment being required for one.

It is probably based on the mission type, so something like prepare collaboration government means you need to support your 'collaborators', while something like arm the resistance is of course going to require lots are arms (i.e., guns) and probably support equipment (explosives).
 
  • Taking down their planes from your skies
You can't. They can fly them at peace and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Nothing. So...
No, you can't clear the sky's of planes you are unable to shoot down. The devs have said you can't.
  • Putting agents to run counter-intelligence operations
You can't. You can put them on "passive" defense which is not actually counter-intelligence. There is nothing you can do to discover and respond to specific threats. You are at the mercy of whatever the enemy plans to do to you and there is no way to actively defend yourself with counter-intelligence.
  • Improving your cypher.
Yeah, that's something, but I'd does not put a cover over your dockyard to hide the fact that you have a superheavy battleship researched and building. It does not conceal what you're doing. It's not actually labeling anything top secret. It's not much.
  • Sending double agents back to their country of origin.
This is not defense. It's actually the opposite of defense. This is an offensive action. I can't believe I have to explain that but yeah.... That's not defense.

So I guess putting your fighter planes to run interception missions is passive defense, right? Because you are at the mercy of whatever planes the enemy sends against you and there's no active way of destroying their planes before they take off. (Edit: actually there is now, you can send agents to run sabotage missions).
And regarding sending back double agents, you captured them during your counter-intelligence operation and you were given the choice of executing them or making them double agents.

Seriously, if you actually want a game where you create a intelligence agency that you need to be constantly checking and micro-managing for a Grand Strategy Game, I think you are barking at the wrong tree. What you ask for is a whole game of cloak and dagger.
 
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So I guess putting your fighter planes to run interception missions is passive defense, right? Because you are at the mercy of whatever planes the enemy sends against you and there's no active way of destroying their planes before they take off.
And regarding sending back double agents, you captured them during your counter-intelligence operation and you were given the choice of executing them or making them double agents.

Seriously, if you actually want a game where you create a intelligence agency that you need to be constantly checking and micro-managing for a Grand Strategy Game, I think you are barking at the wrong tree. What you ask for is a whole game of cloak and dagger.

There was a Dev diary about this with several posts explaining how an enemy can fly spy planes over your territory and there is nothing you can do about it. Intercept missions will not shoot them down. Apparently, the planes are disguised as "civilian planes" granting them total invulnerability.

The double agent thing again has nothing to do with defense...

No, I'm not asking for micro management or a cloak and dagger game. HOI4 devs are giving it to us, but they're only giving us HALF. the problem is they only allow offensive operations. My only argument is that a player should be able to defend themselves against these operations. You people only complain about defense for some reason which is insane because you have no problem with the complexity and micro management of offense. Defense should be so much easier that offensive operations... All you need to do is respond to the enemy attacks... You won't have to do anything unless there is something to do. When an enemy is attempting to do an operation, you should be able to discover it and do sometimes about it, to possibly stop it, that's all. You should be able to hide your information actively. That's also easy. Just allow players to guard their info and choose special projects to put more effort into defense rather than a blanket over everything... I don't care if the enmy knows how many guns I have but if I want to keep my shbb a secret I would focus my efforts on that...
 
  • Taking down their planes from your skies
You can't. They can fly them at peace and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Nothing. So...
No, you can't clear the sky's of planes you are unable to shoot down. The devs have said you can't.
  • Putting agents to run counter-intelligence operations
You can't. You can put them on "passive" defense which is not actually counter-intelligence. There is nothing you can do to discover and respond to specific threats. You are at the mercy of whatever the enemy plans to do to you and there is no way to actively defend yourself with counter-intelligence.
  • Improving your cypher.
Yeah, that's something, but I'd does not put a cover over your dockyard to hide the fact that you have a superheavy battleship researched and building. It does not conceal what you're doing. It's not actually labeling anything top secret. It's not much.
  • Sending double agents back to their country of origin.
This is not defense. It's actually the opposite of defense. This is an offensive action. I can't believe I have to explain that but yeah.... That's not defense.

for clarity, do you mean you have no proactive way to hide specific things or to actively disrupt enemy intel on you?