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HOI4 Dev Diary - Naval Production, Repair and Damage

Hi everyone! Sorry about the late diary. We had to hunt down some gremlins in the machinery before stuff could be screenshotted. Today we are going to talk about quite a lot of big changes to naval production and repair as well as the new critical hits system for ships.

Ship Production
The current system of producing ships where you can assign 15 dockyards to the production of an individual vessel leads to results that are both quite ahistorical as well as not feeling like we want the naval play to feel. With big countries able to replace the loss of a big capital ship without much sweat it makes them less precious, and so we are changing this:
  • A Capital Ship can use up to 5 dockyards in its construction
  • Other ships can use 10 dockyards
  • Convoys can use the full 15
This essentially shifts capital ship construction speed to make each ship slower to make, but you can still build several in parallel. Constructing capital ships is complex and not exactly suitable for optimized assembly lines while we felt this still fit convoys very well with other ships in the middle. Speaking of capital ships, the definition is now a bit more flexible and will depend on the inclusion of certain design elements in your ships (such as a carrier flight deck or heavy guns), so if you construct your ships with those be aware that it will impact how streamlined their construction can be made.
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It is also possible to add custom names when you set up construction. The perfect time to remember to name your battleships awesome custom names rather than having to remember and do it once they are done. You can queue up several names if you so wish.


Ship Repair
Repair is also changing drastically. Before, repairing a vessel was free and just took time, now it’s using your naval industry to do so. You can decide how many dockyards to assign as a max and the level of the naval base will decide how much can be leveraged in each one. So if you have a level 5 naval base you can leverage 5 dockyards there and repair 5 ships at once.

repair.jpg


Bases can be prioritized for receiving dockyards if you have a lot of fleets suffering at once in various places and can even be disabled for repair so you don't accidentally send ships to repair where the enemy will sink them etc. You can even repair in friendly ports if you have docking rights, but are likely to have lower priority than their ships if there is a competition for attention.
Screenshot_1.jpg

If you look closely at the damaged Deutschland heavy cruiser you will see that there is a warning icon on top of it. This signifies that it has taken a critical hit to its propeller and is suffering a big penalty to speed...

Critical Hits
On top of the propeller damage shown off above there are a lot of different critical hits a ship can suffer in combat. The idea behind these is to add some cool storytelling to the fate of ships, and to introduce some lucky random elements. For example imagine there is a lucky hit on a fast and powerful German surface raiding vessel damaging its propeller or engine. Suddenly it is no longer able to escape the royal navy’s wrath as it has planned to do.

Different kind of hits have different effect, and also will cause different amount of direct damage. We are still finalizing the amount of types we have, but here is a non-complete list to wet your appetites:
  • Main Battery Turret Destroyed - reduced attack on main weapons and damage
  • Secondary Batteries Destroyed - reduced attack on secondary weapons
  • Broken Propeller - lower speed
  • Rudder jammed - reduced ability to disengage
  • Magazine hit - massive damage
  • Torpedo Tubes destroyed - reduced torpedo attack and damage
  • Heavy fires - reduced org and damage
  • Ballast tanks inoperable - reduced stealth for subs
  • Radar Inoperable - reduced detection
Suffering a critical hit is a good reason to repair your ships and they need to be fully repaired to remove the effects of the critical hit. There are several admiral traits designed to help you cope as well.

traits.jpg


“Safety First” Lowers the chance of the ships under this admirals command suffering critical hits in the first place while “Crisis Magician” unleashes your internal Scotty which will reduce any effects of critical hits through jury rigged repair, fancy maneuvering and probably a fair amount of god old duct tape.

Is this all? No, there will also be a brand new ship designer and the ability to refit. But that ship is not yet watertight, so it will sail in a future diary instead :)

See you all next week again for more Man the Guns updates!


Rejected Titles:
  • Duct tape and you - keeping the Kriegsmarine afloat in a crisis!
  • The rise of Boaty McBoatface
  • This dev diary was taking on water
  • There is nothing a scottish engineer with a degree in technobabble can’t fix
  • What are you sinking about?
 
Just one question: what's the reason to ever build NIC and navy at all now?

Navy has been totally secondary to both army and airpower, and instead of telling us how we could actually put fleets to better usage you start off by introducing yet more penalties.
The info gets unfold in a pretty weird way.

If you're the USSR or China, you could probably get away without one, but for any nation that needs to transport resources or troops over water, I'd imagine navies will be pretty helpful, just like they were historically (and even for those that don't need sea lanes, a coast-defence navy can help protect against invasion).

Considering how well Stellaris 2.0 was receved I’m a bit disappointed you didn’t go the avenue of sweeping changes.

I'm a naval tragic, and I think the current range of announced changes are both great and pretty sweeping. We're getting control to access over sea zones, naval mines and minesweeping (Woot! This is a huge inclusion, something that hasn't made it in previous HoIs, nor in many other GSGs, despite being a key element in the war at sea in WW2), fleshed out admirals a la the generals, and ship repair and better production mechanics. We're also at the very least getting some kind of ship designer (although the info on what that could be is pretty vague so far), as well as whatever the devs have in mind for changes to naval combat (and that's just what we know about, there may be more - there's at least two more NF trees as well).

Here is a mod that allows a maximum of 6 dockyards for all types of ships (small and big ships alike).

Pffft, 6 NIC for a line is for filthy casuals*, 4 NIC or go home :p.

* I am, of course, just joking :).

Yeah, I don't really see the need for light ships and convoys to have a max of 10 and 15 dockyards. They're already going to build much faster than the capital ships by virtue of being much cheaper.

It seems counter-intuitive that a destroyer can have twice the resources devoted to it than a battleship fifteen times larger. If I was designing it I'd either have everything max out at five dockyards for simplicity's sake, or have the heavy ships be the ones that can take extra dockyards.

My guess would be that it's a balance between wanting to make capital ships have meaningfully long build times, but not create too many new naval lines (as if they get naval production historically right, then there'll be a lot of NIC on screens and subs once the war gets going proper). Given how many DDs/subs are likely to be built, and that there's often likely to be some in the works (so unlike capital ships, there should always be a few 'on the slipways'), modelling production times for the smaller ships doesn't add strategic depth in the same way making capital ship build times more historically plausible does. That's just a guess though, I could be off. As per my comment above, 4 NIC for all o_O! (And no, I'm still not serious, not for the base game :)).

I think it took only 6-12 months depending on type for the assembly line masters of the US to construct a carrier whereas the Japanese needed 3 years (numbers roughly from recollection).

It depended a bit on the type of carrier - Kaiser had those CVEs coming off the ways quick as you like, and the US was still quick at CVs, but iirc the quickest Essex was 14 months (the average being a few months longer, not counting the CVs that were put on the 'go slow' once it looked like they wouldn't be needed), and that doesn't include working up. This isn't to take away from what US shipbuilding achieved during the war - no-one else came close to how quickly they were able to produce warships or merchant ships.

No, doomstacks are not historical at all.

UK and US fleets were scattered all around the globe. That is how you control the sea lanes. Not by having all your nation's ships in one mega fleet that control a few hundred square kilometers of the whole oceans.

Try to protect a big building of thieves by putting all your guardians at the same door leaving all other doors and all floors empty...

This is mostly true, but there were situations (Jutland, late-war US TF 38/58) where there were some pretty big navies. As you well say, the limit is on how sensible it is to put together a large concentration, and it should only be sensible after the sea lanes are secured, or when it's necessary to secure the sea lanes because of the way they're threatened.
 
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No, doomstacks are not historical at all.

UK and US fleets were scattered all around the globe. That is how you control the sea lanes. Not by having all your nation's ships in one mega fleet that control a few hundred square kilometers of the whole oceans.

Try to protect a big building of thieves by putting all your guardians at the same door leaving all other doors and all floors empty...

That depends what kind of ships we are talking about here.

Destroyers ( which had for job to guard the sealanes ), absolutely true, they were scattered all over the place to defend all convoys.

Cruisers ( which were a bit of allround ), true to a certain degree.

Capital ships ( which had for job to annihilate the enemy main fleet ), not really true at all, these were to as large a degree as possible focused together at the most important operation or moved in a position where they could counter the enemy major gathering of capital ships ( Following the decisive battle theory ). Now for nations like UK that had 3 different enemy seapowers threatening their interests, yes they needed to split up their capital ship in 3 groups ( one for each enemy ), but other than that they were working together to as large of a degree as possible AFAIK.
 
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If you're the USSR or China, you could probably get away without one, but for any nation that needs to transport resources or troops over water, I'd imagine navies will be pretty helpful, just like they were historically (and even for those that can't, a coast-defence navy can help protect against invasion).

I'm a naval tragic, and I think the current range of announced changes are both great and pretty sweeping. We're getting control to access over sea zones, naval mines and minesweeping (Woot! This is a huge inclusion, something that hasn't made it in previous HoIs, nor in many other GSGs, despite being a key element in the war at sea in WW2), fleshed out admirals a la the generals, and ship repair and better production mechanics. We're also at the very least getting some kind of ship designer (although the info on what that could be is pretty vague so far), as well as whatever the devs have in mind for changes to naval combat (and that's just what we know about, there may be more - there's at least two more NF trees as well).
.

I don't know why I bother reading Naval books, when I could simply ask @Axe99 any questions about the Naval War.
 
I don't know why I bother reading Naval books, when I could simply ask @Axe99 any questions about the Naval War.

You should read naval books because naval books make people into better people :D*. Also - I'm just an enthusiast - I've read a little bit now, but there are still more than a few books on my 'to read' list that I haven't got to, that I'd consider essential to properly understanding naval operations during WW2 (let alone all the "very good books that aren't entirely essential". Naval warfare is deep - in many ways moreso than land and because naval warfare inherently includes air warfare (but in a more complicated fashion, as it's land-based and all the complications involved in carrier-based air) it's got that as well.

Plus, reading naval books is fun :D (although if someone doesn't find reading naval books fun, they shouldn't read them - more seriously people should enjoy what they enjoy, I wouldn't judge** :)).

* Or I'd like to think so :rolleyes: This statement is just me being silly of course :).

** And if anyone does get judged for their hobby, unless they're hurting someone else (ie, if you get judged for forcing your relatives to listen to Justin Beiber, that's on you :p) they should ignore it and keep doing what they love :).
 
I’m pleased with the direction MtG is taking. Some recommendations:

1. In order to represent practical experience in ship design – and avoid tech rushing, force nations to build several models of the researched ship before the next ship design is available for research. The amount of ships required should be scaled to tech level and ship type.

2. Ship construction should be assigned to a specific shipyard - not allowing them auto join a fleet (especially one at sea already). Strategic bombing inflicting damage on those shipyards reduces production capacity. Also, enable the ability to capture a ship under construction.
 
@podcat When will the dev diary that reveals the names of the other counties be coming? If you cannot say than I respect that and I also respect that this update and DLC will take time since there are major changes. I just thought I would bring that up since I have been seeing a large amount of comments in the forums and steam (but steam in particular) complaining that you guys are taking too long to release the DLC and update without thinking of how tedious this process is.
 
@podcat

You had me at custom name lists for ships - excellent!

Still hoping those old Deutschland pre-dreds are going to get a serious downgrade from what 1922 BB tech currently represents, though.

From the look of things ship classes are going to be a lot more flexible - you can basically design a ship with mid-1930’s tech but only 6x11” guns as main armament. Thus you don’t have to choose between having the Panzershiff as CAs or pre-dreadnought BBs, or at least the distinction doesn’t make any difference per se.
 
Would be good to see some crits that are timed, particularly thinking about fires here, which would hamper the functioning of a ship while the response team dealt with it, and could cause interesting effects like a carrier deck fire preventing it launching planes, or a small chance a battleship fire could lead to a catastrophic ammunition detonation.


Another good example of timed critical hits would be the very unlucky shot that hits the bridge/CIC and immolates the senior staff. You would take a critical hit to command for a reasonable period of time, but after a day or so your navy would be able to supply new personnel to eliminate part of the penalty. Obviously repairing the wrecked bridge is another matter, but replacing a dead captain is a darn site quicker than replacing a wrecked bridge.
 
This was very annoying in Darkest Hour and its still very annoying with mods like Kaiserreich where you usually start with painfully outdated large fleets with no way to upgrade them

Historically, are there any examples of large fleets being upgraded en masse? Not really, right?

Truth is it’s often easier to scrap a ship than try to rework the engines/guns/etc. Ships didn’t have modular construction so replacing the engines often meant tearing the entire ship apart.

Sure, there were examples of battleships and cruisers being converted into aircraft carriers, but even this didn’t happen that often and didn’t result in particularly wonderful CVs.

TL;DR - yes, if you’ve got a large and rubbish fleet, it shouldn’t be easy just to convert it into sparkling new ships with new eninges, armour, and guns.
 
We considered this. I felt it was moving into HOI5 territory a bit with how big of a change it would be

I would love for there to be industrial complexes that produce specific equipment so that you could strat bomb specific targets. An not just for naval yards but for land and air stuff as well. If your Panther factory gets bombed, your tank production will dip. But yes, I could see that this might be for HOI5 or for a DLC that is quite a way down the road.
 
That's nice and all but the current resource system is heinously bad. It doesn't even cost more materials to make more tanks once your factories get more efficient.

Which is quite ok IMO. Efficiency is not only about IC-days but also about resources. The T-34 is a great industrial example in this regard. The first batches to roll off the assembly lines required thousands of machining operations and a lot of retooling (something that adds cost in terms of resources and time) while the production models later in the war required a lot less operations and tooling. Now this wasn't something that was inherent to the models themselves either but rather the result of shortcuts and smart idéas on the factory floors which got implemented into the production lines. The "drawback" which isn't really simulated in HOI4 was incompatibility between various factories as tolerances and design features were altered differently depending on the manufacturing plant (so scavenging for spare parts wasn't as easy as one would think).
There are more examples in most of the warring nations but increased output due to increased efficiency doesn't always equal a higher consumption of raw resources (the efficiency growth goes two ways). Having the same model staying at the same resource requirements per MIC feels like a pretty decent simplification. We already pay more resources for newer models (Tier3 tanks cost more resources than Tier2 for example).

I do however agree that the resource-system could use some loving care in future expansions. It's a bit too simple but we don't want HOI3 stockpiling or overly complex production-chains either.
 
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The idea is to shift naval warfare away from everythign dies right away to a place where not everythign is lost but it costs a lot of time and industry to repair it

so I suppose this is to make it so that first two naval battles at the start of WW2 won't be 120 Destroyers sunk, and few CL untill only heavy cruisers and battleships remain?
 
I both like and dislike this change; I think it's mainly in how I'm internally screaming at how long the bigger ships will take when I can only put down 1/3 of what I usually do. I also do admit I like and dislike the new repair system in that it makes a good deal of sense, but also punishes smaller nations or those with a small naval pool at start. Overall I am open, but a bit leery of the change.

Still, like the new name feature being while it's built and new critical damage pools.
 
I both like and dislike this change; I think it's mainly in how I'm internally screaming at how long the bigger ships will take when I can only put down 1/3 of what I usually do. I also do admit I like and dislike the new repair system in that it makes a good deal of sense, but also punishes smaller nations or those with a small naval pool at start. Overall I am open, but a bit leery of the change.

Still, like the new name feature being while it's built and new critical damage pools.

@podcat giveth with one hand, and taketh away with the other, lol.
Hopefully, MtG will be a giant leap to more accurate Naval strategy and Fleet composition when it's all coded and tested.
 
Is this all? No, there will also be a brand new ship designer and the ability to refit. But that ship is not yet watertight, so it will sail in a future diary instead :)
About time the game receives that. when the game received the conversion update to newer model ability on land & air units, it was very noticeably missing the Sea part.