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HOI4 Dev Diary - Portugal

Olá everyone and welcome to another dev diary for La Resistance! Let me begin by introducing myself: My name is Manuel, I’m from Spain and I joined Paradox as a Content Designer for HOI a couple of months ago (just on time to attend PDXCON, yeah!).

I’ve been working on the implementation of Portugal for La Resistance. The original design of the focus tree was made by Portuguese professor Pedro Santos. He came with what I consider to be a really interesting idea, where the political branch of the tree has multiple possible interactions with the Spanish Civil War.

While I worked on Portuguese Events and Decisions, the whole tree was implemented by our producer, Vachon (big kudos to her!). We tweaked the design of the Focus Tree a little bit, specifically the communist branch, which we felt was a bit dull compared to others, and the SCW-related branches to make them properly interact with Spain. Now I’m the one who will polish the tree and will attempt to get rid of all those lovely bugs our great Betas are reporting. Talking about Betas, our freelance artist @Indyclone77 is the one to blame for all the wonderful Portuguese event pictures and new icons you are about to see in the focus tree and national spirits, he has done an amazing job not only in making all that cool art, but also in providing crucial feedback during the development, so big kudos to him as well!

Before going on, please note that balancing is still a work in progress, so there may be changes in what you are about to see.

So I’d like to start talking about the National Spirits Portugal will start with in 1936:
  • Unreliable Army: Representing the poor state of the Portuguese army during the period of the First Republic, which historically led to a major reorganization in 1937, it provides some penalties to Division Organization, Recruitable Population Factor, War Support and Division Attack, so you want to get rid of this before entering any conflict (probably not the best idea to join the Spanish Civil War only to see how your disgusting Spanish enemies defeat your unprepared troops and occupy your precious mainland in a blink...).

  • Unstable Republic: During its 16 years, the First Portuguese Republic saw the inauguration of nine presidents and 44 cabinet reorganizations. Even during the Ditadura Militar there were several failed coup attempts. In 1933, after Salazar’s creation of the Estado Novo and the new Constitution approved in a referendum, Portugal’s stability slowly increased (maybe the censorship system and the different police forces that repressed all kinds of dissidents also helped a little bit with that). So another no-good spirit applying penalties to your Daily Political Power Gain, Stability and Construction Speed. You will be able to remove it through the different political branches, and you will probably want to do it ASAP.
01 Initial NSs.png


Now let’s look at the Portugese Focus Tree and talk about the different paths a player can choose from:

02 Focus Tree.jpg


As you can see, the general structure varies a little bit from the standards of other trees, where you have clear separate branches for industry, military forces and politics.

Let’s start with the colonial branch, shall we?

Through the first focuses, Portugal will receive big bonuses to non-core manpower that will prove really useful in the early stages, since Portugal’s initial manpower is really low. The player can then choose between integrating the African colonies (which will also provide some extra manpower), or allowing them to form their own governments and puppeting them (something that will be appreciated by other democracies in the world).

There is also a sub-branch that joins the industrial one, developing industry and infrastructure in the African colonies.

03 Colonial Branch.png


Regarding Industry, by continuing the public works initiated by Salazar’s regime around the early 30s, Portugal will gain access to the first focus that will provide her first extra research slot (take into consideration that Portugal starts with only two research slots, so it seems just fair for her to get an early focus to fix that). The player can also choose between a fast development of the civilian industry receiving more factories or, with a slower approach, invest in future development getting some nice bonuses to industry research and construction speed.

Portugal can also improve infrastructure and resource extraction industries on the mainland and, of course, there is a focus representing the construction of dams, something Iberian dictators liked very much to do.

And then we have the military industry sub-branch, where the player can get (much needed) military factories and some useful bonuses to production and research for aircraft, vehicles and artillery. Make sure you don’t miss the extra research slot “hidden” between all these industrial focuses!

04 Industrial Branch.png


The first focus on the Naval Branch will unlock decisions to buy ships from either The United Kingdom or Italy. If they accept to build your ships (make sure you have good relations with them before activating the decision!), you will then be presented with three different options to choose from.

05 Purchase Ships Decisions.png


06 Purchase Ships Event.png


The central and left sub-branches focus on Convoy protection and submarine warfare, providing a number of research bonuses for destroyers and submarine warfare, as well as adding a couple of dockyards to boost your naval production. These sub-branches then merge, eventually leading to a focus that unlocks Portugal’s third and last research slot (for a total of five).

The right side of the naval branch is focused on the production of the big ships, as well as fortifying the vulnerable Portuguese possessions in the Atlantic Ocean and Asia.

07 Naval Branch.png


The Army Branch, although fairly small (don’t worry, you will find more military focuses under the Political Branch), will help Portugal to get its army in shape for the conflicts to come. The first focus removes that nasty Unreliable Army National Spirit and leads to some research and production bonuses in the next focuses. Finally, you will have to choose between building heavy fortifications in Lisbon, or creating a light fortification line along the coast.

08 Army Branch.png


Now, let’s take a general look at the whole Political Branch before getting deeper into each of the sub-branches:

09 Political Branch.png


As you can see, you can choose between Popular Front and Estado Novo. The first focus leads to the Communist branches, the latter to the Fascist and Monarchist ones, and both of them lead to the Democratic one.

If you choose to go with Popular Front you will unlock the National Communist branch (to the left). This sub-branch starts with the training of socialist militias, followed by focuses that will help make your people see the benefits of living in a Communist society. Nationalize Industry will get rid of the private capital draining your country, putting you in control of new civ factories, but also hurting your stability. After the Reorganization of the Communist Party, your country will be ready and willing to have a Communist government, and the Soviet Union will receive a nice opinion modifier boost on you, which should help you joining the Comintern via the next focus.

The Popular Front also unlocks Support the Republic, allowing you to support the Republicans and send volunteers to the Spanish Civil War, it leads to two different sub-branches:
  • To the left, we have a “radical” approach to the Spanish Civil War. Workers of Iberia, Unite! will trigger a Civil War in Portugal, in which both sides will instantly join their Spanish counterparts (I mean, you do not have a proper civil war unless you have 6 different tags fighting in it). After (presumably) winning the SCW along with your comrades in Spain, you will be able to unify the Iberian Peninsula, annexing the Spanish Republic. Finally, you will be able to create your own faction and appeal to the Latin American countries to join you.
10 Workers of Iberia NS.png

  • In the right, we have the “cautious” approach to the Spanish Civil War. Here you won’t be able to join the SCW until you have swapped to a communist government. It’s a much slower approach, but after the war, you can pick different focuses to interact with foreign countries, including one that will grant you a war goal against Spain, in case their ideology is no longer desirable for you.
11 Fight Alongside  the Republic Decision.png


If you go with Strict Neutrality you won’t be able to interact in the SCW, but you will gain some nice boosts to your industry, production and Democracy support via the British, as well as some recurrent decisions to purchase equipment from them.

11 bis Democratic Leader.png


You will then allow free elections, swapping to a Democratic government and unlocking not only focuses to join the Allies, but also some shared focuses with the communist branch and the right-wing shared focus Iberian Summit, which unlocks the decisions by which Portugal and Spain can jointly send a petition to join the Axis or the Allies together.

12 Iberian Summit Decisions.png


13 Iberian Summit News.png


In case you go with Estado Novo, you will have to choose between Strict Neutrality (mentioned above), Support the Nationalists and the Monarchist branch.

Support the Nationalists, as its Republican counterpart, will allow you to support Nationalist Spain and send volunteers in the Spanish Civil War. You can join the SCW against the Republic in further focuses, and also intervene in Spain after the civil war if the Spanish government does not match your ideology.

13bis Fascist Leader.png


National Syndicalism will pave the way to become Fascist, leading to some interesting focuses: You can either join the Axis, or claim that Portugal will be the nation that finally unites the entire world under the same rule, ideology and faith (this will provide a powerful National Spirit, but it will also annoy some people around the globe).

Refuse the Naval Blockade unlocks a decision for countries at war with the United Kingdom, by which they will use some of your convoys to carry supplies where they cannot reach, increasing their War Support and, of course, diverting the production of one of their factories to meet your needs.

14 Refuse Naval Blockade Decision.png


From there, you can claim the African territories between your Angolan and Mozambican colonies (righting the humiliation of the British Ultimatum of 1890), recover the East Indies and Brazil, and even declaring war on a threatening Japan!

Last but not least, we have the Monarchist Branch. You will start by uniting the Brazilian and Portuguese royal houses (wedding bells ringing in the distance). After that, your goal is to restore the Monarchy not only in Portugal, but also in Brazil, some recurrent decisions will help you in that matter. Once you succeed in that, you will be able to politely ask Brazil to submit under your rule, re-establishing the Empire of Portugal and Brazil.

15 Empire of Portugal and Brazil.png


In the case of a Carlist Uprising happening during the Spanish Civil War, you can support your Monarchist friends in Spain and join the war against all those misguided souls that refuse to bow to the god given rights of monarchs to rule the people.

16 Carlist volunteers NS.png


And that’s all from me, I hope you enjoyed the dev diary and make sure to stay tuned for the next one. Anyways, we wish you all a merry Christmas and very happy New Year. See you all in 2020!

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The Vasco da Gama was not a battleship by any definition.

From Wikipedia.

"The term battleship came into formal use in the late 1880s to describe a type of ironclad warship"

Vasco da Gama was an ironclad, therefore, a battleship.

The Dom Carlos I (Almirante Reis) was a protected cruiser, and never the 'most powerful of its kind'.

From Wikipedia.

"At the time of his entry into service, it (Dom Carlos I cruiser) was the most powerful protected cruiser in the world. It was the first ship of the Portuguese Navy to have wireless telecommunications, something technologically advanced to the standards of the time."

But yes, I was slightly wrong and Dom Carlos I was actually a protected cruiser and not an armored one.
 
From Wikipedia.

"The term battleship came into formal use in the late 1880s to describe a type of ironclad warship"

Vasco da Gama was an ironclad, therefore, a battleship.
The operative part of that phrase is "a type of ironclad warship". Not all ironclads are considered battleships. If you read the Wiki article on ironclads, you see:
There were many types of ironclads:
  • Seagoing ships intended to "stand in the line of battle"; the precursors of the battleship
  • Coastal service and riverine vessels, including 'floating batteries' and 'monitors'.
  • Vessels intended for commerce raiding or protection of commerce, called "armored cruisers".
From the Wiki article on the Vasco da Gama, we get
She served as part of the coastal defense force that protected Lisbon, the Portuguese capital, and the mouth of the river Tagus.
Which puts her squarely in the second category, not the first.
 
The operative part of that phrase is "a type of ironclad warship". Not all ironclads are considered battleships. If you read the Wiki article on ironclads, you see:

From the Wiki article on the Vasco da Gama, we get Which puts her squarely in the second category, not the first.

An Ironclad is an ironclad regardless. The type the Wikipedia was speaking about, was pre-dreadnought battleships.

"The term battleship came into formal use in the late 1880s to describe a type of ironclad warship, now referred to by historians as pre-dreadnought battleships."

The ship did have several classifications throughout it's life since it was changed several times. In Portuguese, Vasco da Gama was called a Couraçado, Corveta-Couraçada, or even Cruzador-Couraçado. Couraçado means Ironclad, just for your information.

Vasco da Gama is even on the list of Pre-dreadnought battleships, by the way, and I can't tell if you are trying to dispute my afirmations, or not, to be honest.

Page on wikipedia. Scroll down and look at the pictures and their description below. Search for Vasco da Gama.

It says "Portuguese pre-dreadnought battleship Vasco da Gama - 1901."

On a side note, Vasco da Gama was not only used for coastal defense. It was used to help escort troops to France (during ww1) and even the colonies in Africa (during and after ww1) as well, at the very least. It was the flagship of the Portuguese navy, for a big while, as well, and as you can imagine it didn't sit on the Tagus estuary transporting tourists around.

The Vasco da Gama was not a battleship by any definition. At 2,384-tons she was barely bigger than a destroyer. I will admit she carried a pair of 260mm (10.2-inch) guns, but she was basically a monitor or (in-game) coastal defense ship.

If you had read the entire wiki description for the ship (which I assume is where you got the 2384 tons from), you would had seen that she suffered changes and increased it's tonnelage, armament, etc. The description to the right side of the screen (on wikipedia) only shows what the ship had when it was built AFAIK. By 1936 the ship had more than 3000t, which is pretty much what many of the Heavy Cruisers (in-game) have.

There are several ships in-game that were smaller/weaker than Vasco da Gama in both armour and weaponry (in real life), but they are at least Heavy Cruisers in-game. Vasco da Gama was sold for scrap around mid 1936, but I would still include her in, as a heavy cruiser in a worst case scenario.

I mean, when you give certain nations like Mexico a heavy cruiser like this (link to wikipedia) then you should definetely use the same concept and do it for others, as well. Anahuac was pratically the same as Vasco da Gama, and there are others that are pretty similar in-game. The Netherlands (in-game) also have at least one Heavy Cruiser that was more a Light Cruiser (in real life), than anything, and even Vasco da Gama (built before 1900), dwarfs any of its weapon as well as its armour. Not to mention the Heavy Cruisers certain nations like Denmark / Norway have - they were weaker when compared with Vasco da Gama.
 
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An Ironclad is an ironclad regardless. The type the Wikipedia was speaking about, was pre-dreadnought battleships.
Correct, an Ironclad is an Ironclad...but not all Ironclads are Battleships. By your definition the French Gloire (1857) would be a battleship, as would the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia (Merrimack). Ironclad is a generic term for any wooden warship protected with iron or steel armor. Battleship is also a generic term, in this case for a warship designed to 'fight in the line of battle' (presumably with and against other battleships).
"The term battleship came into formal use in the late 1880s to describe a type of ironclad warship, now referred to by historians as pre-dreadnought battleships."
Again, see the modifier 'a type of' which clearly means that not all ironclad warships were considered battlships.
The ship did have several classifications throughout it's life since it was changed several times. In Portuguese, Vasco da Gama was called a Couraçado, Corveta-Couraçada, or even Cruzador-Couraçado. Couraçado means Ironclad, just for your information.
So lets parse your 3 classifications...
Couraçado = Ironclad
Corveta-Couraçado = Ironclad Corvette (A corvette is 'a small ship designed for convoy escort duty')
Cruzador-Couraçado = Ironclad Cruiser (A cruiser is 'a large fast moderately armored and gunned warship') Not sure how a ship with a top speed of 10 knots (15 after the refit) can be considered fast.
Vasco da Gama is even on the list of Pre-dreadnought battleships, by the way, and I can't tell if you are trying to dispute my afirmations, or not, to be honest.

Page on wikipedia. Scroll down and look at the pictures and their description below. Search for Vasco da Gama.

It says "Portuguese pre-dreadnought battleship Vasco da Gama - 1901."
Interesting, the Vasco da Gama is not included in the English version of that same wiki page.

On a side note, Vasco da Gama was not only used for coastal defense. It was used to help escort troops to France (during ww1) and even the colonies in Africa (during and after ww1) as well, at the very least. It was the flagship of the Portuguese navy, for a big while, as well, and as you can imagine it didn't sit on the Tagus estuary transporting tourists around.
Yes, I knew that, but its primary use was as the flagship of a Coastal Defense Fleet.
If you had read the entire wiki description for the ship (which I assume is where you got the 2384 tons from), you would had seen that she suffered changes and increased it's tonnelage, armament, etc. The description to the right side of the screen (on wikipedia) only shows what the ship had when it was built AFAIK. By 1936 the ship had more than 3000t, which is pretty much what many of the Heavy Cruisers (in-game) have.
The same refit that increased her length by ~10-meters also REDUCED her main guns from 2x1x260mm to 2x1x200mm (in-game this would be changing the Heavy Battery I to a Medium Battery I) while replacing her single secondary 160mm gun with a longer 160mm gun (as a single gun mount probably wouldn't be represented in game at all unless combined with the 4x9-pdr broadside guns). This refit also increased her speed from just over 10 knots to just over 15 knots.
There are several ships in-game that were smaller/weaker than Vasco da Gama in both armour and weaponry (in real life), but they are at least Heavy Cruisers in-game. Vasco da Gama was sold for scrap around mid 1936, but I would still include her in, as a heavy cruiser in a worst case scenario.
Agreed, although I would argue that the Vasco da Gama (and all of the other ships you are referring) to should be a Coastal Defense Ship with a single Medium Battery I (after the refit) and a single Support Battery I. Also, the information I have is that the Vasco da Gama was removed from the lists and sold for scrap in 1935.
I mean, when you give certain nations like Mexico a heavy cruiser like this (link to wikipedia) then you should definetely use the same concept and do it for others, as well. Anahuac was pratically the same as Vasco da Gama, and there are others that are pretty similar in-game. The Netherlands (in-game) also have at least one Heavy Cruiser that was more a Light Cruiser (in real life), than anything, and even Vasco da Gama (built before 1900), dwarfs any of its weapon as well as its armour. Not to mention the Heavy Cruisers certain nations like Denmark / Norway have - they were weaker when compared with Vasco da Gama.
I agree, many nations have ships that are incorrectly classified. Although I just loaded up to check and you might be confused. In game the Coastal Defense ships (like other cruiser hulls) show up as either Heavy Cruisers or Light cruisers depending on their largest Battery module. So:
Mexico has the Anahuac-class (the Deodoro purchased from Brazil) Coastal Defense Ship that shows up as a Heavy Cruiser (in the UI) because it has a main battery of 17cm guns (Medium Battery I). Although IRL it had a pair of single 243mm guns (similar to the pair of single 260mm guns on the Vasco da Gama), so the designers must have decided that 2 Heavy Guns wasn't enough to count as a single Heavy Battery (which is supposed to represent 4-6 guns)
The Netherlands has 3 Soerabaja-class Coastal Defense Ships that show up as Heavy Cruisers because their main battery of 28cm-guns (Heavy Battery I) puts them in that category.
Denmark has the Niels Iuel-class Coastal Defense Ship that shows up as only a Light Cruiser because its main battery of 14.9cm guns (Light Cruiser Battery I) puts them in that category.
 
I agree, many nations have ships that are incorrectly classified.

In the base game released in 2016, Portugal's submarines (Tier II -- 1936) and submarine technology (1936) appear to have been also incorrectly classified.

We did have submarines (Portugal was one of the first to adquire them by the way), but, they had to be produced in either Italy or the UK as well.

As I understand it, the UK built Portugal's submarines based off of 1931 (?) technology.

To reflect Portugal's real-world situation, it may be more accurate to have Portugal start with less up-to-date submarine technology...or none at all.

But there is a game mechanic that allows Portugal to have the ability to build advanced technology submarines at the start of the game on 1 January 1936: the diplomatic choice, "Request Production License" (this assumes that the nation with Submarine II technology would permit Portugal to use that technology).

This game feature, "Request Production License" was not available when the game first came out in 2016. But with the introduction of advanced game mechanics, the game can be gradually adapted to the real world situation circa 1936...starting with Portugal.
 
Looks great! Portugal will be very interesting to play since they have will have opportunities to intervene in every continent. I am especially interested to see what scenarios we will encounter in Latin America.

I started reading about the the National Syndicalist Movement in Portugal and their desire to integrate Galicia. This, of course, resulted in tensions between the MNS and the Falange. Is it possible to add a alternate path to the ''Assist Spain'' one which let you demand and core Galicia?
If Spain refuses, you will get a war goal on Spain and will be able to core Galicia trough a decision.
If they accept, Spain cedes Galicia, Portugal will gain it as a core and a non-aggression pact will be signed.

Looking forward to see the Portugal stream in the future!
 
Correct, an Ironclad is an Ironclad...but not all Ironclads are Battleships. By your definition the French Gloire (1857) would be a battleship, as would the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia (Merrimack). Ironclad is a generic term for any wooden warship protected with iron or steel armor. Battleship is also a generic term, in this case for a warship designed to 'fight in the line of battle' (presumably with and against other battleships).

The difference is, you were implying Vasco da Gama was a monitor. And no, it wasn't a monitor. It didn't merely protect the estuary. The main mission might had been that, but it served many roles during the countless decades it was on service. Pratically, everything a ship of this type can do. except seeking enemies aggressively, because the Portuguese fleet during ww1-ww2 didn't have that role. Vasco da Gama for example, was stationed for a very long time on Azores protecting american ships en route to Europe (with the support of other Portuguese ships of course). Azores was so used during ww1 that sometimes there were more than 80 ships passing through it.

It was an ironclad and a battleship, and it isn't just my opinion but what the wikipedia says as well. Overall the term "Coastal Defense Ship" is hard to define - and many nations had different categories. Vasco da Gama did fill the role of a coastal defense ship (and was even called that at the start when it was made), but, as I showed with the example of Azores, there is a lot of open ocean, and little coast. The ship was changed on Italy to make it ocean worthy I believe. It is when it received it's Cruzador-Couraçado designation.

So lets parse your 3 classifications...
Couraçado = Ironclad
Corveta-Couraçado = Ironclad Corvette (A corvette is 'a small ship designed for convoy escort duty')
Cruzador-Couraçado = Ironclad Cruiser (A cruiser is 'a large fast moderately armored and gunned warship') Not sure how a ship with a top speed of 10 knots (15 after the refit) can be considered fast.

It isn't "my" classifications. Those were the classifications the ship had in Portugal. I don't know how fast the ship was when it received that designation (of cruiser). It did suffer many modifications as I said, specially since the metals in use had to be substituted frequently (they suffered corrosion easily from what I know but I have read about the ship a lot of time ago so I am not 100% sure if this was the motive). Maybe the ship was fast for the standard of the time, back when said changes were made, one has to take that in consideration as well.

Also:

Corveta-couraçada - is a Coastal Ironclad
Cruzador-Couraçado - Is an Ocean worthy Ironclad

Interesting, the Vasco da Gama is not included in the English version of that same wiki page.

Yes, the wikipedia is full of things like that. I believe I even saw a page where USA was on the list of biggest empires in the world, and if you switched the same page through every language, you would see different nations on the top of the list. Frankly I am only using wikipedia because I don't know what sources over the internet to use to prove my point.

Also, the Portuguese page doesn't say that the guns were taken out and substituted. It says the ship had several artillery pieces added as well as machineguns. Doesn't speak about removing anything in term of armament. The english page says the guns were "replaced", but I am unsure what they mean with that word. Are they saying the guns were taken out completely from the ship?

Also, the information I have is that the Vasco da Gama was removed from the lists and sold for scrap in 1935.

This is one of the interesting things over Wikipedia. All Portuguese pages speak about 1936. Even the pages about the coastal fortifications that received the batteries from the ship for coastal defense. I have read that it hapened in mid 1936 as well. But the english wikipedia, decides to be different, and state 1935. Maybe the deal with the italians (the ones that bought the ship for scrap I believe), was signed in 1935. Hard to know. But I am fairly sure they only took the batteries out in 1936 and that the ship stopped sailing in the same year.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understand it, the UK built Portugal's submarines based off of 1931 (?) technology.

To reflect Portugal's real-world situation, it may be more accurate to have Portugal start with less up-to-date submarine technology...or none at all.

Yes, the historically correct way would be to remove a lot of starting technology from many countries... not just Portugal.

Portugal didn't produce them inside it's borders, but there are many ships, tanks and airplanes that weren't produced locally yet the nations start with the required tech to make them. Just because their armies/navies had them (in real life) at game's start (1936).

If you do it for 1, you need to apply the same standard to everyone. In terms of removing, or adding techs.

Greece for instance is capable of building battleships. And Georgios Averof wasn't even made in Greece. Not to mention that Greece has a lot more naval techs than Portugal, which is curious since Portugal had far more capabilities in industrial terms, experience and tradition than Greece. Plus, the UK as allies, which would have definetely provided help. And Portugal actually had ships that would have fit the definition of larger ships (by 1936), and thus give them enough reason to possess the tech as well.

All in all it doesn't make sense, but I hope they take this in consideration and change the Portuguese starting techs (preferably), or change those of others.

As for the submarines Portugal had by 1936, they were bigger and better armed (in real life) than the ones the UK has in-game (S class submarines). They were pretty much on pair with the german VII class (in real life) though. They were build by 1934, and were part of the "ambitious naval rearmament plan" the navy had.
 
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If you do it for 1, you need to apply the same standard to everyone. In terms of removing, or adding techs.

I concur...if Portugal is held to a more historical standard, then it makes sense to apply that same standard throughout the game.

But I'm thinking that it does not have to be done all at once. Applying historical standards could be done little by little, version by version.

Starting with Portugal.
 
Also, the Portuguese page doesn't say that the guns were taken out and substituted. It says the ship had several artillery pieces added as well as machineguns. Doesn't speak about removing anything in term of armament. The english page says the guns were "replaced", but I am unsure what they mean with that word. Are they saying the guns were taken out completely from the ship?
Initially she (or are ships masculine in Portugese?) was armed with 260mm (10.2-inch) guns in individual barbettes, plus a single 150mm stern mounted gun (so it couldn't fire forward), and 4 9-pdr (100mm) anti-Torpedo Boat guns.

During the 1901-1903 reconstruction (in Livorno, Italy) she received new engines (increasing max speed from 10.3 kn to 15.5 kn (~50% increase)), removed her (3) sail masts, she was lengthened by 9.91 meters, the 260mm guns were replaced by 200mm L/45 (8-inch) guns (interestingly manufactured in England), and the 150mm (5.9-inch) gun was replaced with a longer 150mm L/45 gun. Also 6 3-pdr (47mm) guns were added for close in defense (i..e, anti-Torpedo Boat) [I missed these the first time I checked]. Finally her Iron armor was replaced with Steel armor. All of these changes resulted in her displacement increasing to 2,972 metric tons (2,925 long tons; 3,276 short tons), and her crew increasing from 232 to 260 officers and men.

It seems there was another minor refit in 1922, but I can't find any details on it.

Finally, according to navypedia (slightly more reliable than wikipedia) she was disarmed in 1933 (making her guns available for the shore batteries) and discarded and sold in 1935.
 
Initially she (or are ships masculine in Portugese?)

Depends on the ship. As Corveta-Couraçada, it was a she, as a Cruzador-Couraçado, it was a he. Who would have said that ships can change gender, too? But if you are speaking about Vasco da Gama (name of the ship and not the designation before the name) it is definetely male.

To clarify:

Corveta-Couraçada Vasco da Gama - she
Cruzador-Couraçado Vasco da Gama - he
Vasco da Game (only) - he

Finally, according to navypedia (slightly more reliable than wikipedia) she was disarmed in 1933 (making her guns available for the shore batteries) and discarded and sold in 1935.

I found countless inconsistencies with that site on the past, so I don't consider it 100% correct. There are always minor errors.

For instance the crew by 1901 weren't 260 men. It was 259. The length was also 71.3m and not 70.9m. The maximum armour was also 254mm and not 250mm. And so on.

I am not discussing the armament, but what the ship had was: 2 pieces of 203mm, 1 of 150mm, 1 of 76mm, 8 of 47mm and 2 machineguns of 6,5mm. From what I know the ship was not for anti-submarine warfare and didn't even have any weapon onboard for that role (when it was stationed on Azores protecting ships during ww1), but i am not an expert in ship weapons so I can't tell if the 47mm guns were actually for anti-submarine warfare like you say. Or maybe they had a more generic purpose, unsure to be honest.

I will bet that the "disarmament date" is also the same thing. I mean, all Portuguese pages speak about 1936. Why do the english pages speak differently? With what information did they actually post their stuff on the internet? Why do the english pretend to know more about the portuguese than the portuguese... when we are speaking about a portuguese ship? (no offense to you or anyone in here, I merely question who actually wrote the english wiki or the site you linked - they might be or might not even be english at all)

Either way, staying with facts, and facts alone...

Wikipedia page about Vasco da gama. (check the period of service)

Wikipedia page about one of the fortifications (that received the artillery from the ship once it was sold for scrap). Scroll down, the Portuguese term when translated is "slaughtered" and it says by 1936 as well.

Wikipedia page about another of the fortifications (that received the artillery from the ship once it was sold for scrap). Scroll down, the Portuguese term when translated is "slaughtered" and it says by 1936 as well. This page, unlike the other one, also exists in english. Curiously, it also speaks about 1936.

Also, another interesting website that speaks partly about Vasco da Gama. 1936 as well.

P.S: I actually doubt that the ship was disarmed in 1933 to be honest like navypedia says. Why? Because most of the ships of the 1930 program only started being delivered to the navy after 1934, and many weren't even built by 1936. You won't decomission an entire ship from service before having replacements of some sort. And after hot events like the Madeira uprising in the early 30's, the government definetely wouldn't do that.
 
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I found countless inconsistencies with that site on the past, so I don't consider it 100% correct. There are always minor errors.
Which is why I said slightly more reliable.
I am not discussing the armament, but what the ship had was: 2 pieces of 203mm, 1 of 150mm, 1 of 76mm, 8 of 47mm and 2 machineguns of 6,5mm. From what I know the ship was not for anti-submarine warfare and didn't even have any weapon onboard for that role (when it was stationed on Azores protecting ships during ww1), but i am not an expert in ship weapons so I can't tell if the 47mm guns were actually for anti-submarine warfare like you say. Or maybe they had a more generic purpose, unsure to be honest.
The 47mm guns were for close in defense, so anti-torpedo boat not anti-submarine...they might have been capable of anti-air, but none of my sources mention high-elevation mounts so unlikely.
I will bet that the "disarmament date" is also the same thing. I mean, all Portuguese pages speak about 1936. Why do the english pages speak differently? With what information did they actually post their stuff on the internet? Why do the english pretend to know more about the portuguese... when we are speaking about a portuguese ship? (no offense to you or anyone in here, I merely question who actually wrote the english wiki or the site you linked)
Disarmament date usually refers to when its weapons are either physically removed (most likely in this case since at least some were used in shore batteries) or rendered incapable of use (typically by removing the breach, filling it with concrete, spiking it, or something along those lines).
Either way, staying with facts, and facts alone...
I just wish either of us could find some non-contradictory sources for those facts.
For example, the English language version of that page lists her period of service as:
Laid down: 1875
Launched: December 1st, 1876
Completed: 1878
Fate: Broken up for scrap 1935

and the actual text of the article, under "Service History" ends with "Thoroughly obsolete, she remained in the Portuguese fleet until 1935, when she was sold for scrapping." Which appears to come from Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships: 1906–1921 (1985) page 372. (Sadly after downloading it and checking the source, it just says Broken Up - 1935 but no futher details.
Wikipedia page about one of the fortifications (that received the artillery from the ship once it was sold for scrap). Scroll down, the Portuguese term when translated is "slaughtered" and it says by 1936 as well.

Wikipedia page about another of the fortifications (that received the artillery from the ship once it was sold for scrap). Scroll down, the Portuguese term when translated is "slaughtered" and it says by 1936 as well. This page, unlike the other one, also exists in english. Curiously, it also speaks about 1936.
Sadly neither mentions when the artillery was added to the battery, or removed from the ship, or even which guns.
Also, another interesting website that speaks partly about Vasco da Gama. 1936 as well.

P.S: I actually doubt that the ship was disarmed in 1933 to be honest like navypedia says. Why? Because most of the ships of the 1930 program only started being delivered to the navy after 1934, and many weren't even built by 1936. You won't decomission an entire ship from service before having replacements of some sort. And after hot events like the Madeira uprising in the early 30's, the government definetely wouldn't do that.
 
The 47mm guns were for close in defense, so anti-torpedo boat not anti-submarine...

My bad, I actually thought I had read anti-submarine. I am having quite a headache today so please forgive me that error.

Sadly neither mentions when the artillery was added to the battery, or removed from the ship, or even which guns.

I actually think that is pretty redundant. The forts themselves were built by 1941, but I am led to believe the artilery pieces had been in use by the RAC (regiments of coastal artilery) all the way before being placed specifically on those fortifications.

But why do I say it is pretty redundant? Because the ship remained active till 1936. The term "abatido ao serviço" (translated by google into "slaughtered"), is when something ceases active functions. To be capable of performing active functions, one would need conditions to perform them. The ship, in this case, would need weapons. Maybe it had 1 piece removed. Maybe it had 2. Maybe it didn't have any. Does it matter, if it was performing active service, with all the others present onboard?

I just wish either of us could find some non-contradictory sources for those facts.

I hear you, I tried to search the webpage about the fortifications on Azores for more info about them, but unfortunately the website no longer exists, google cache holds nothing about it, and the wayback machine also didn't save anything from it on their large database. Grrrrrr.

But really, given that other ships were being built for the Portuguese Navy, my best bet is that the agreement with the Italians (?) that bought the ship for scrap happened in 1935 but the ship was only sent mid 1936 when it stopped active functions. Would make sense, but it is merely my theory and my opinion on the matter. Otherwise I got no clue why the English Wiki states 1935 instead of 1936. My thought is that they were basing themselves from the deal, and not from the date the ship actually stopped being active.
 
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As promised I will try in this post to give some historical and game design context for the political branch of the Portuguese Focus Tree for HOI4.

Because Portugal has a presence in almost every continent, it can allow for very different experiences than when playing a primarily European power. I also wanted to give the player playing Portugal a feeling of the problems that any leader governing Portugal in that time frame would have to deal with.

As a disclaimer, please note that I did the initial design for the tree, but implementation and playtesting might have seen the need to change some things. So do not take my words in any way as final.

The first big political decision the Player faces is supporting Estado Novo, the corporativist "New State" that historically gathered right-wing Republicans, Monarchists, and Fascists under the leadership of Salazar, or join the opposition. The main organized opposition to the government was the Communist Party who, inspired by the Popular Front victories in Spain and France (and following the Comintern's Popular Front policy), in 1936 historically formed, together with some left-wing republicans, the short-lived Portuguese Popular Front.

A second big decision has to do with the reaction to the events in Spain. When the civil war starts, an event similar to the Swedish winter war event should pop-up, allowing Portugal to support the initial steps of the civil war (by sending armament and/or volunteers). While it is not clear if there were any active Portuguese involvement in the start of the Civil War, the fact is that Portugal started immediately after to assist Franco financially, by supplying arms and volunteers and being a port of passage for Italian and German aid. It also isolated the border areas in control of the republicans, arresting all that crossed the border and turning them on to Nationalist forces, where most faced execution. Salazar also sent in July of 1936 a trusted army officer, Captain Henrique Galvão, who passed as a journalist, to contact the sublevated forces and assess the situation. He wrote seven letters from August 2 to August 17th, describing talks with commander Castejón, and the generals Queipo de Llano and Franco. He was very critical of the slow conduct of the military operations by the nationalists.

The Focus decisions represent the long term policy towards the civil war. Historically, Salazar supported the nationalists, and Portugal became an entryway for armament and supplies to the nationalist cause. He also sent several envoys and high-level observation missions with members from all three branches of the Portuguese military from 1937 onwards with the dual objectives of protecting the interests of Portuguese foreign volunteers and collating information on the lessons learned in the civil war. The Mission officially had a non-combatant role but its airforce contingent took part in combat missions. The number of Portuguese volunteers that fought integrated in nationalist units has been estimated between 6000 and 12000.

A player that wants to try a Pro-democracy playthrough can follow instead the position of Britain and France and enforce Strict Neutrality and the Embargo on arms sales, therefore winning favor with the Western Allies. This option is open to both the Estado Novo and Popular Front paths.

A Player wanting to follow a Pro-Communist playthrough can at this point support the Republic. This opens an interesting Revolutionary path where the Portuguese Popular Front joins the civil war, in practical terms spreading the civil war to Portugal. As I mentioned in the previous post, historically there was a failed sailor revolt in September 1936, whose objective, according to the regime investigation, was to join the Spanish Republic and the civil war. This Focus allows the player to explore that possibility.

Of course, the third big political decision is which path to war. Strategically, "New State" Portugal had no interest in entering any conflict, unless there was danger of a Communist victory in Spain or losing its colonies. In territorial terms, Portugal (contrarily to Spain) still had most of its colonies, so it had no need for further territorial expansion. Entering the war on Britain side would invite an invasion by the Axis Powers, entering the war on the Axis side would immediately make Portugal lose access to its overseas territories. Moreover, Salazar was a fan of balanced budgets, which are not very compatible with waging wars. Salazar considered Britain a strategic ally and helped her much more than is usually acknowledged, betting (correctly) on an ultimate Allied victory.

After Italy entered the war and the French collapse in May-June 1940, the possibility that Spain and Portugal would enter the war was seriously considered by the Allies. In Britain, the CoS produced a plan to occupy Portuguese colonies with the help of South Africa, India, and Rhodesia, if Portugal became hostile; The only British operational division after Dunquerque was earmarked to occupy the Azores. Cape Verde and Azores were to be occupied if either of these conditions would occur: (i) Hostility from Portugal or Spain; (ii) Certitude that one of these countries will enter the war; (iii) If the Germans pass the Pyrenees (iv) if the objectives of economic war are not attained; The attacks were to be launched by surprise, and no resistance was expected.

On 29 of July 1940, an additional protocol was signed with Spain, reinforcing the Iberian Pact. Meanwhile, Spain was playing a four-sided game, negotiating with the Axis its entry into the war, that could include the occupation of a Neutral/Allied Portugal, and negotiating with France and Britain to increase its share of the Morocco Protectorate.

Portugal started to quietly support the British war effort. For instance, tracking stations were allowed on the islands; in July 1940 2,500 evacuees from Gibraltar were shipped to Madeira. Also on 29 Jul 1940 an agreement was signed between the Banks of Portugal and England guaranteeing unlimited credit to British companies and the State for purchases of goods in Portugal, valid while the war lasted. Several small combat ships (naval trawlers) were built and loaned to Britain. At the same time, Portugal was trading with Germany. So Salazar's strategy was betting (and quietly helping) on a British victory, but do not give any reasons for either the Allies or the Axis to want to attack Portuguese territories.

Of course, if one plays Portugal, this historical strategy is not the most fun to play. So I tried to give Portugal several interesting and believable (albeit some of them improbable) paths to intervene in the war, not only focusing in Europe, but also in Sub-Saharian Africa, South America, and East Asia.

Finally, I would like to address the concern some here expressed, that there is no "Historical Path" that allows Salazar to stay in power. In fact, Salazar stayed in power exactly by not committing to any political path but balancing the different forces of his coalition. He adopted some ideas from Fascist Italy, but never let the movement get out of hand. He appeased the Monarchics, by giving them high government posts, supporting the royal marriage and returning some estates. He gave them some hope of restoring the Monarchy up until the 1950s, but never actually allowed the heir to return. And he managed to stay in good grace with both the Western Allies and the Axis powers.
 
As promised I will try in this post to give some historical and game design context for the political branch of the Portuguese Focus Tree for HOI4.

Because Portugal has a presence in almost every continent, it can allow for very different experiences than when playing a primarily European power. I also wanted to give the player playing Portugal a feeling of the problems that any leader governing Portugal in that time frame would have to deal with.

As a disclaimer, please note that I did the initial design for the tree, but implementation and playtesting might have seen the need to change some things. So do not take my words in any way as final.

The first big political decision the Player faces is supporting Estado Novo, the corporativist "New State" that historically gathered right-wing Republicans, Monarchists, and Fascists under the leadership of Salazar, or join the opposition. The main organized opposition to the government was the Communist Party who, inspired by the Popular Front victories in Spain and France (and following the Comintern's Popular Front policy), in 1936 historically formed, together with some left-wing republicans, the short-lived Portuguese Popular Front.

A second big decision has to do with the reaction to the events in Spain. When the civil war starts, an event similar to the Swedish winter war event should pop-up, allowing Portugal to support the initial steps of the civil war (by sending armament and/or volunteers). While it is not clear if there were any active Portuguese involvement in the start of the Civil War, the fact is that Portugal started immediately after to assist Franco financially, by supplying arms and volunteers and being a port of passage for Italian and German aid. It also isolated the border areas in control of the republicans, arresting all that crossed the border and turning them on to Nationalist forces, where most faced execution. Salazar also sent in July of 1936 a trusted army officer, Captain Henrique Galvão, who passed as a journalist, to contact the sublevated forces and assess the situation. He wrote seven letters from August 2 to August 17th, describing talks with commander Castejón, and the generals Queipo de Llano and Franco. He was very critical of the slow conduct of the military operations by the nationalists.

The Focus decisions represent the long term policy towards the civil war. Historically, Salazar supported the nationalists, and Portugal became an entryway for armament and supplies to the nationalist cause. He also sent several envoys and high-level observation missions with members from all three branches of the Portuguese military from 1937 onwards with the dual objectives of protecting the interests of Portuguese foreign volunteers and collating information on the lessons learned in the civil war. The Mission officially had a non-combatant role but its airforce contingent took part in combat missions. The number of Portuguese volunteers that fought integrated in nationalist units has been estimated between 6000 and 12000.

A player that wants to try a Pro-democracy playthrough can follow instead the position of Britain and France and enforce Strict Neutrality and the Embargo on arms sales, therefore winning favor with the Western Allies. This option is open to both the Estado Novo and Popular Front paths.

A Player wanting to follow a Pro-Communist playthrough can at this point support the Republic. This opens an interesting Revolutionary path where the Portuguese Popular Front joins the civil war, in practical terms spreading the civil war to Portugal. As I mentioned in the previous post, historically there was a failed sailor revolt in September 1936, whose objective, according to the regime investigation, was to join the Spanish Republic and the civil war. This Focus allows the player to explore that possibility.

Of course, the third big political decision is which path to war. Strategically, "New State" Portugal had no interest in entering any conflict, unless there was danger of a Communist victory in Spain or losing its colonies. In territorial terms, Portugal (contrarily to Spain) still had most of its colonies, so it had no need for further territorial expansion. Entering the war on Britain side would invite an invasion by the Axis Powers, entering the war on the Axis side would immediately make Portugal lose access to its overseas territories. Moreover, Salazar was a fan of balanced budgets, which are not very compatible with waging wars. Salazar considered Britain a strategic ally and helped her much more than is usually acknowledged, betting (correctly) on an ultimate Allied victory.

After Italy entered the war and the French collapse in May-June 1940, the possibility that Spain and Portugal would enter the war was seriously considered by the Allies. In Britain, the CoS produced a plan to occupy Portuguese colonies with the help of South Africa, India, and Rhodesia, if Portugal became hostile; The only British operational division after Dunquerque was earmarked to occupy the Azores. Cape Verde and Azores were to be occupied if either of these conditions would occur: (i) Hostility from Portugal or Spain; (ii) Certitude that one of these countries will enter the war; (iii) If the Germans pass the Pyrenees (iv) if the objectives of economic war are not attained; The attacks were to be launched by surprise, and no resistance was expected.

On 29 of July 1940, an additional protocol was signed with Spain, reinforcing the Iberian Pact. Meanwhile, Spain was playing a four-sided game, negotiating with the Axis its entry into the war, that could include the occupation of a Neutral/Allied Portugal, and negotiating with France and Britain to increase its share of the Morocco Protectorate.

Portugal started to quietly support the British war effort. For instance, tracking stations were allowed on the islands; in July 1940 2,500 evacuees from Gibraltar were shipped to Madeira. Also on 29 Jul 1940 an agreement was signed between the Banks of Portugal and England guaranteeing unlimited credit to British companies and the State for purchases of goods in Portugal, valid while the war lasted. Several small combat ships (naval trawlers) were built and loaned to Britain. At the same time, Portugal was trading with Germany. So Salazar's strategy was betting (and quietly helping) on a British victory, but do not give any reasons for either the Allies or the Axis to want to attack Portuguese territories.

Of course, if one plays Portugal, this historical strategy is not the most fun to play. So I tried to give Portugal several interesting and believable (albeit some of them improbable) paths to intervene in the war, not only focusing in Europe, but also in Sub-Saharian Africa, South America, and East Asia.

Finally, I would like to address the concern some here expressed, that there is no "Historical Path" that allows Salazar to stay in power. In fact, Salazar stayed in power by not committing to any political path but balancing the different forces of his coalition. He adopted some ideas from Fascist Italy, but never let the movement get out of hand. He appeased the Monarchics, by giving them high government posts, supporting the royal marriage and returning some estates. He gave them some hope of restoring the Monarchy up until the 1950s, but never actually allowed the heir to return. And he managed to stay in good grace with both the Western Allies and the Axis powers.

The problem I have with the historical path is the lack of a defined branch that shows the position of Portugal during the war.

1 - Portugal was technically neutral in the SCW it never openly supported the nationalists wile for example the National Syndicalists wanted to publiclysupport the Nationalists and provide more for their war effort (like sending actual troops instead of volunteers).

2 - Not only did Portugal had to manage internal problem but also external ones.

3 - External problems like keeping itself and Spain neutral from WW2 (done via the Iberian Pact), keep the Axis and Allies from invading it's territories, has well as the situation in the Pacific (many members of the military and politics alike wanted to go to war against Japan and some even agains the Allies (the latter being quickly silenced) due to the occupation of Timor).

4 - Internal problems that the focus tree doesn't allow for the player to take care as Salazar did, like keeping under control the monarchist, national syndicalists, and other right wing politicians that formed his coalition. Or deal with the opossition.

I created a thread with some proposals to change the portuguese focus tree in there i also gave a proposal for a historic political path.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ese-focus-tree-changes.1300143/&sdpDevPosts=0
 
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The problem I have with the historical path is the lack of a defined branch that shows the position of Portugal during the war.

1 - Portugal was technically neutral in the SCW it never openly supported the nationalists wile for example the National Syndicalists wanted to publiclysupport the Nationalists and provide more for their war effort (like sending actual troops instead of volunteers).

2 - Not only did Portugal had to manage internal problem but also external ones.

3 - External problems like keeping itself and Spain neutral from WW2 (done via the Iberian Pact), keep the Axis and Allies from invading it's territories, has well as the situation in the Pacific (many members of the military and politics alike wanted to go to war against Japan and some even agains the Allies (the latter being quickly silenced) due to the occupation of Timor).

4 - Internal problems that the focus tree doesn't allow for the player to take care as Salazar did, like keeping under control the monarchist, national syndicalists, and other right wing politicians that formed his coalition. Or deal with the opossition.

I created a thread with some proposals to change the portuguese focus tree in there i also gave a proposal for a historic political path.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ese-focus-tree-changes.1300143/&sdpDevPosts=0

Seriously hope that thread is implemented
 
Consideration: No oil for Angola...don't include 1960s mineral production values in Hearts of Iron IV.

Bigger idea: Don't include future technology in a WW2 game...save the 1960s for a game dedicated to the Eastern Bloc versus Western Bloc struggles of the Cold War era.

Why not? Using 1960s production numbers gives permission to use other 1960s events. It sets a game design precedence to introduce future elements into a specific period of history. Applying anachronistic events in every new version of HoI4 leads to a crescendo of increasing in-game "currencies", a type of design-inflation that contributes to power creep.

Kudos to the designers of the new Portugal focus tree. A lot of work went into it and it reflects much research and expertise. The purpose of this post is not to denigrate the designers' efforts, but instead to emphasize a preference to keep WW2 games focused on the WW2 era.

The original post in this thread suggests that Portugal will be given some oil. Here is a snip from the OP:

upload_2019-12-27_9-57-37.png



The seriousness of this Portugal game design feature is so important, I will publish a thread dedicated solely to the idea of anachronisms.

(again, kudos to the Portugal focus tree designers...they are producing something that will help the game. Many thanks!)
 
I still don't understand why Salazar's path doesn't have any endgame focuses. I get it, he was playing on both sides but i find it silly how all ahistorical paths have an ending goal or focus, while playing historically you are literally forced not to pick the endgame focuses or else you will be forced to swap ideology and interfere in WWII.
 
I still don't understand why Salazar's path doesn't have any endgame focuses. I get it, he was playing on both sides but i find it silly how all ahistorical paths have an ending goal or focus, while playing historically you are literally forced not to pick the endgame focuses or else you will be forced to swap ideology and interfere in WWII.

I don't see why people are saying there's no "endgame focuses" for Salazar Portugal, lets take a look:
upload_2019-12-28_2-19-28.png


So to keep a "pseudo-historical" Salazar path you need to go "Support the Nationalists" and pick anything but "National Syndicalism" right?
If this is the case then you can still: intervene in Spain, intervene in Africa, intervene in Brazil, intervene in Latin America, refuse the Naval Blockade, intervene in India and there's even a focus to pick a fight against the Japanese still available I assume.
What do you actually lose by locking yourself out of "National Syndicalism"?
Well, "National Syndicalism" focci I'm pretty sure is just a fascist boost, you lose the focci to join the axis or create a faction, both of which you can do easily without focci, a wargoal vs China and a "Research Agreement" (I assume its just faction research) are hardly something to cry about. The only focci I have no idea about is "Camisas Azuis".
For a country that didn't participate in the actual war irl, I'd say this is far generous for a non-aligned "historical" path, you don't really lose nothing of worth as you can still do most of the Nationalist's focci.
The only problem I can detect is maybe a little ocd from not picking every available focus down a straight line...

I seen somewhat similar complaints from the French historical path as well, by "not having a concrete finish line", but I think both paths are fine and in Portugal's case, quite generous.