Stellaris Dev Diary #100 - Titans and Planet Destroyers

[Omeganian]

None, you can interrupt it at 99% and the planet is fine.

It's just when the device actually fires that your planet is screwed.

It's so that you have a few months of ingame time to react and stop whatever is being attempted.

Yeah, makes sense... absolutely not.

 

[krios41]

Yeah, makes sense... absolutely not.

WHy?
it hasn't fired yet at 99% so why does it not make any sense?

 

[Pink81]

Armageddon bombardment will do this, no ? Turning planets in tomb worlds.

Both Armageddon bombardment and the world cracker fulfill two different types of Exterminatus

Thanks, I was missing armageddon bombardment, my bad.

 

[Person012345]

Planet destroyers are beyond a terrible idea for several reasons:

1: They make doomstacks worse. All incentive will be to protect/destroy the planet destroyer. As is if you lose your doomstack you lose the war, with this and the war changes now once you lose your doom stack the game is completely over since you opponent now gets to destroy all your planets. All ships will be with the planet destroyer because this is literally all war will be about.

2: Mechanically unfun. Sure, you can wag your space reproductive organs about while you wreck havoc, and for some players that will be fun, but as I think even the devs have said in the past, they are completely unfun to have used against you. Now you can not come back from a defeat, because there will be nothing to regain, and no doubt incredibly frustrating to watch you entire game come crashing down because the colossus is online.

That's just assuming everyone will be rampaging around blowing up otherwise useful planets. I imagine the intention is to have them as "bunker buster" weapons, to deal with those especially hard to crack planets, rather than as the standard method of waging war. I see no benefit to you in destroying all your rival's planets, rather than conquering them. I also imagine it will bring in some severe "genocidal" diplomatic modifiers. If it doesn't then it unquestionably should, because it's the same if not worse than doing a full purge.

I would hope the AI is not programmed to use them willy nilly for the lulz, but to use them sparingly.

Depending on how tough they are, they may DISCOURAGE doomstacking. If your doomstack is off chasing your enemies fleet and suddenly a planet buster shows up at one of your border planets, that wouldn't be good. But if you had a smaller fleet that was nonetheless capable of dealing with one ship (because that's ultimately what this is) before it can charge it's weapon, then you'd be fine.

It's a shame, I have loved Stellaris, but these are such a terrible idea at minimum I won't buy the expansion they are in, which seems to be adding a lot more in than just these things. Will there be an option to turn them off while still using other new content like titans and ion cannons?

I do think it might be a good idea to add a "planet killer on/off" toggle to the new game screen though.

 

[Omeganian]

WHy?
it hasn't fired yet at 99% so why does it not make any sense?

Because we see this real big beam striking the planet.

 

[Person012345]

Because we see this real big beam striking the planet.

In the stream it was said that this was just a precursor beam digging a hole so that the real energy could be delivered inside the planet. Or something.

 

[henzington]

If the planet was destroyed instantly it won’t give an empire a chance to respond especially if their fleet is far away at the start of the war.

I get why people want it to be quicker but that is quite poor from a balance viewpoint. I know I would be pissed if a planet was destroyed before I could respond

 

[Radene]

Not happy with this, at all. I mean I knew it was going to happen sooner or later, hoped for later, but eh. This is getting modded out. Except obviously for that one IM game for the inevitable achievement; because I'm a hypocrite like that.

That's just assuming everyone will be rampaging around blowing up otherwise useful planets.

Which is a safe assumption to make, considering there's always complaining about how "purging xeno scum from the galaxy" is too difficult, and the amount of all those "THE EMPEROR PROTECTS" and "DEUS VULT" memes.

I imagine the intention is to have them as "bunker buster" weapons, to deal with those especially hard to crack planets, rather than as the standard method of waging war. I see no benefit to you in destroying all your rival's planets, rather than conquering them. I also imagine it will bring in some severe "genocidal" diplomatic modifiers. If it doesn't then it unquestionably should, because it's the same if not worse than doing a full purge.

Problem is, they will inevitably go one of two ways: either so game-breakingly OP that the only valid strategy will be rushing for one ASAP; or impractical/situational/expensive enough for that not to happen, but instead cause a tide of people whining about how they're underpowered and that by the time they get one, they should have paved the way for an easy "win" rather than being as underwhelming as they are. I simply don't see this turning out that well.

I would hope the AI is not programmed to use them willy nilly for the lulz, but to use them sparingly.

I, on the other hand, would hope every game with those to contain at least one "space Gandhi" empire. Just go the full monty, if we're going for the "staples" of the genre.

Depending on how tough they are, they may DISCOURAGE doomstacking. If your doomstack is off chasing your enemies fleet and suddenly a planet buster shows up at one of your border planets, that wouldn't be good. But if you had a smaller fleet that was nonetheless capable of dealing with one ship (because that's ultimately what this is) before it can charge it's weapon, then you'd be fine.

We'll really have to see just how sturdy those monstrosities are going to be, but I also think it's more likely that we're going from the era of doomstack to the era of "doomstack+colossus". Because everybody will assume "throw everything at the colossus to get it out of the picture asap" is what their opponent will do. It's a strategic target, since you can't spam them, just blowing up that one ship can turn the momentum of the war. And that's because if you have one of those floating about, you likely intend to use it, so your strategy at least in part depends on utilizing that one ship. Which of course means, losing it is what messes with your strategy, so your opponent will want to make sure you lose it. And if one's strategy (and counter-strategy) are built around one of these things, obviously they'll be at the center.

Now, a savvy player might use the damned thing as bait, to try and get the enemy fleets into an ambush, but that's some seriously inconveniently expensive bait.

I do think it might be a good idea to add a "planet killer on/off" toggle to the new game screen though.

That I could settle for. But still. I'd rather the devs did something mundanely QoL before this - something like an, I don't know, anomaly tracker. Those microscope icons are tiny, and when you're looking at the neighborhood of 60 stars you kinda sorta remember one should be in, a pain to find. Just feels like space e-peen sticks seem to be more important at the moment than actual functionality of the basic elements.

...I'll eventually quit grumbling about this, but I gotta get it out of my system. Obviously I'll be buying the bloody thing.

 

[kpipersburg]

Woooo

 

[Koning Kaas]

Damn this update looks really nice.

 

[Person012345]

Which is a safe assumption to make, considering there's always complaining about how "purging xeno scum from the galaxy" is too difficult, and the amount of all those "THE EMPEROR PROTECTS" and "DEUS VULT" memes.

Memes being the operative word. In any case, if people want to RP as a highly xenophobic genocidal empire then fine. They can already do that to an extent, now they just have another way to do it. Whilst everyone else is expanding, they can sit in their cold little space surrounded by obliterated useless worlds. If you're in a multiplayer game, unite together aganst them. Though idk why you would multiplayer with randoms anyway, that sounds terrible. In any case I don't see why you'd be losing to a nation that is military focused, yet gets no benefits from being so because they've blown up all their prizes. Again, I'd expect the "exterminatus" types to incur heavy diplomatic penalties.

Problem is, they will inevitably go one of two ways: either so game-breakingly OP that the only valid strategy will be rushing for one ASAP; or impractical/situational/expensive enough for that not to happen, but instead cause a tide of people whining about how they're underpowered and that by the time they get one, they should have paved the way for an easy "win" rather than being as underwhelming as they are. I simply don't see this turning out that well.

Not necessarily. With the new systems in the new patch, they could have a legitimate use in cracking those super fortified worlds at chokepoints without becoming the be all and end all of combat. They may be a valid option for genocidally minded empires, giving flexibility, without being an instant win button that it is compulsory to use.

I, on the other hand, would hope every game with those to contain at least one "space Gandhi" empire. Just go the full monty, if we're going for the "staples" of the genre.

I have no problms with those existing as extreme examples, but ultimately as I said, I doubt the intention is for this to become the default way of waging war. Destroying all your potential conquests seems like a way of nerfing your own empire and if the AI does it it's probably bad AI. though I wouldn't expect an exterminator to have any moral constraints, whereas I might expect certain other empire types to be even less inclined to use them.

We'll really have to see just how sturdy those monstrosities are going to be, but I also think it's more likely that we're going from the era of doomstack to the era of "doomstack+colossus". Because everybody will assume "throw everything at the colossus to get it out of the picture asap" is what their opponent will do. It's a strategic target, since you can't spam them, just blowing up that one ship can turn the momentum of the war. And that's because if you have one of those floating about, you likely intend to use it, so your strategy at least in part depends on utilizing that one ship. Which of course means, losing it is what messes with your strategy, so your opponent will want to make sure you lose it. And if one's strategy (and counter-strategy) are built around one of these things, obviously they'll be at the center.

Now, a savvy player might use the damned thing as bait, to try and get the enemy fleets into an ambush, but that's some seriously inconveniently expensive bait.

I agree we'll have to wait and see. We'll have to see the effects on the meta, and if it's a problem they can be tweaked. I actually don't expect the balance to be perfect on arrival anyway, there are massive changes coming in both the free patch and the expansion, I think it's inevitable that there will have to be hotfixes and balancing tweaks for a while afterwards.

 

[Myxztplk]

Now, a savvy player might use the damned thing as bait, to try and get the enemy fleets into an ambush, but that's some seriously inconveniently expensive bait.

First thing I thought then I read about the new update was: put the colossus in frontline so the enemy starbase fire is distracted and let the fleet wreak havoc in the shadow of the bait.

If the balance in stellaris is done right this will not work with an enemy as strong as yourself cause he can invest the additional ressources you used for the colossus in more defensestructures/ships. The superweapon beeing useful will then depend all on your ability to find an opening (a weak point in defense, a distracted defense fleet cause of another war or something like this) and this would be at least for me an totally acceptable way to play.

Only the doomstack problem won't be solved with this. But that also depends on balancing. If the new version will bring more life in strategic combat (AI use more smaller fleets engaging on different points, letting one halve of your empire undefended (=no fleet there) rasing the chances for an ambush attack greatly etc.) you simply can't hold your fleets together, you always need to have some ships in every corner of your empire cause you will otherwise lose territory on one side while beating one fleet on the other side.

 

[methegrate]

Not happy with this, at all. I mean I knew it was going to happen sooner or later, hoped for later, but eh. This is getting modded out. Except obviously for that one IM game for the inevitable achievement; because I'm a hypocrite like that.



Which is a safe assumption to make, considering there's always complaining about how "purging xeno scum from the galaxy" is too difficult, and the amount of all those "THE EMPEROR PROTECTS" and "DEUS VULT" memes.



Problem is, they will inevitably go one of two ways: either so game-breakingly OP that the only valid strategy will be rushing for one ASAP; or impractical/situational/expensive enough for that not to happen, but instead cause a tide of people whining about how they're underpowered and that by the time they get one, they should have paved the way for an easy "win" rather than being as underwhelming as they are. I simply don't see this turning out that well.



I, on the other hand, would hope every game with those to contain at least one "space Gandhi" empire. Just go the full monty, if we're going for the "staples" of the genre.



We'll really have to see just how sturdy those monstrosities are going to be, but I also think it's more likely that we're going from the era of doomstack to the era of "doomstack+colossus". Because everybody will assume "throw everything at the colossus to get it out of the picture asap" is what their opponent will do. It's a strategic target, since you can't spam them, just blowing up that one ship can turn the momentum of the war. And that's because if you have one of those floating about, you likely intend to use it, so your strategy at least in part depends on utilizing that one ship. Which of course means, losing it is what messes with your strategy, so your opponent will want to make sure you lose it. And if one's strategy (and counter-strategy) are built around one of these things, obviously they'll be at the center.

Now, a savvy player might use the damned thing as bait, to try and get the enemy fleets into an ambush, but that's some seriously inconveniently expensive bait.



That I could settle for. But still. I'd rather the devs did something mundanely QoL before this - something like an, I don't know, anomaly tracker. Those microscope icons are tiny, and when you're looking at the neighborhood of 60 stars you kinda sorta remember one should be in, a pain to find. Just feels like space e-peen sticks seem to be more important at the moment than actual functionality of the basic elements.

...I'll eventually quit grumbling about this, but I gotta get it out of my system. Obviously I'll be buying the bloody thing.

I think you're right about the uses for a planet-killer, if just for practicality's sake. By the late game your empire is humming along and you generally have more resources than you can spend. Conquering extra planets is unnecessary at best, and often just busywork at worst. That's probably going to be even more true in an era where systems can be controlled with star bases.

MOOII went the same way. By the time you had stellar converters, you didn't need any extra planets. So generally I just blew them up because why not?

I like the fact that this is an ascension perk, that will help limit their use. In fact, that's what makes me less concerned about this spiraling back into doomstacks. For the empires that use planet killers, sure, that's probably exactly what will happen. As long as that's only some empires, though, that's alright. I don't mind the Empire stacking all its eggs in the Death Star basket as long as they're the exception to the rule. The other ascension perks are going to have to stay really good to counterbalance planet killers though.

Probably another key issue will be to keep emphasizing the strategic value of planets. By mid-late game the economic value of a new planet is virtually nil, so there needs to be some other reason to add that rock to your empire instead of just blowing it up. FTL inhibitors on the surface are a terrific idea, and definitely more of that would make planets worth keeping even in the late game. Personally, I'd also add ship range. I've long thought that Stellaris would do well with some sort of range/supply mechanic, and integrating planets into that would also make them more essential to keep around.

 

[Omeganian]

In the stream it was said that this was just a precursor beam digging a hole so that the real energy could be delivered inside the planet. Or something.

Digging a hole deep enough to matter in such things is likely to kill the population anyway.

 

[Ravbek]

Not every type of empire gets its own planet destroyer, though we may very well add more later. What weapon would you suggest for Hive Minds (besides the basic ones they already have access to)?

Nano-virus converter, infiltrates the atmosphere and imbeds tech in the heads of the pops linking them to the hive mind.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Probably another key issue will be to keep emphasizing the strategic value of planets. By mid-late game the economic value of a new planet is virtually nil, so there needs to be some other reason to add that rock to your empire instead of just blowing it up. FTL inhibitors on the surface are a terrific idea, and definitely more of that would make planets worth keeping even in the late game. Personally, I'd also add ship range. I've long thought that Stellaris would do well with some sort of range/supply mechanic, and integrating planets into that would also make them more essential to keep around.

Would agree, though I don't think cracking a planet will be giving a massively large bonus to minerals etc.

 

[JuliusAlexander]

In regards to Colossus, I think limiting it to PD and a lot of Utility Slots would be the way to go. Don't allow it to do any direct damage, but do allow it to hang in there when attacked, long enough for your reinforcements to arrive. We don't want to be going through the trouble of losing and rebuilding these things every five minutes because it's made of glass.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I would love to see a new addition to ruthless capitalist AI personalities where they just planet crack to harvest resources.

 

[Sapa Inca]

...or impractical/situational/expensive enough for that not to happen, but instead cause a tide of people whining about how they're underpowered and that by the time they get one, they should have paved the way for an easy "win" rather than being as underwhelming as they are. I simply don't see this turning out that well.

I think that this is exactly what will happen, the whine in forums about the underpowered planet destroyers will be insuportable, principally considering thar overpowered planet destroyers are worst to the tactical/stratey aspect of the game that underpowered planet destroyers.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

I would love to see a new addition to ruthless capitalist AI personalities where they just planet crack to harvest resources.

The fun thing it it probably going to be more effective to crack all the planets in the system before building ringworld there than just building a ringworld.