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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
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In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
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Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
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(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
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Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
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(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
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@Wiz
Will every non hivemind race suffer under piracy? isnt it thinkable that some races have no actual concept of stealing (or what ever you wanna call it)?
making a gameplay mechanic out of a human concept and apply it to every possible alien race does not feel good imo.
non-gestalt species in Stellaris have always been fairly anthropomorphic

even the gestalt ones are heavily colored by human notions
 
Any plans for making the trade of strategic goods require a trade network with another empire? It would go a long way with creating some alive "space traffic" Trade seems a good way to open the doors to more interactions between space entities. I'm hoping this trade system will be used to it's fullest effect in order to rope in the galactic environment a bit more.
That's actually a cool idea, and a way to hook this system into the galactic market.

How about, the @Wiz in order to trade with the market, you need to set up a trade route from your capital to the galactic market, and can do so by linking with other empires routes.

This could create a space silk road where no one empire can police the entire road, and if you want to maintain trade with the rest of the world, you're going to need to maintain good relations with your neighbors.
 
Plundering trade routes is something we want to do but haven't yet figured out exactly how it will work. At the very least you can cut their routes by targeting starbases.
In a topic I put in the suggestions I talked about how Barbaric Despoilers could have access raiding mechanics. With this now mentioned piracy factor the Despoilers or maybe any empire can set their fleet to a raiding stance and send it to a neighboring system and the fleet has a direct influence on the piracy factor in that system. This drop in trade value could then be directly given to the empire doing the raiding.

Thread with my ideas for a more detailed explanation: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rade-routes-planets-while-not-at-war.1120131/
 
I understand the rational behind restricting number of collecting places, but why not make it possible to obtain additional centres of trade, but in a way that requires a lot of commitment?(acension perk, ending prosperity tree) Therefore, we would be seeing realistic networks rather than mercantile flow, but it still would be impossible to make really short trade lines.
 
All of this sounds awesome, I just hope that at some point you will be able to collect trade value in highly developed colonies. Otherwise, if you expand a lot it won't make a lot of sense to send half a galaxys trade to your capital, it would be more logical to create several somewhat shorter routes to large and important worlds.
 
@Wiz
Will every non hivemind race suffer under piracy? isnt it thinkable that some races have no actual concept of stealing (or what ever you wanna call it)?
making a gameplay mechanic out of a human concept and apply it to every possible alien race does not feel good imo.

its not like evry human being steal, there are ppl that don't steal .

they are pirates , there is not a rule of "why" they are doing this, you can RP all you want on this. rebellions need resources .

and ... i won't say that there "can't be" a race that don't steal ; but if you considerate that " all race" are races that growed ethos and societies , i can't see how they would have no concept of propiety , and so of stealing . even if the race part of the society is 100% socialist ( it would actualy be more similar to an hivemind) , there would still be a concenpt of " this is ours" "this is yours" and " i want what its yours" ...

race that may don't have concept of stealing would , of course , be the hivemind( gestal) , were the races have no individualism .

different if you talk about the " crime lover" empire, but still, piracy would still be a thing ... a robber can steal from a robber .
 
In a topic I put in the suggestions I talked about how Barbaric Despoilers could have access raiding mechanics. With this now mentioned piracy factor the Despoilers or maybe any empire can set their fleet to a raiding stance and send it to a neighboring system and the fleet has a direct influence on the piracy factor in that system. This drop in trade value could then be directly given to the empire doing the raiding.

Thread with my ideas for a more detailed explanation: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...rade-routes-planets-while-not-at-war.1120131/

Kind of wonder how this would interact with the border mechanic though; it would be incredibly annoying to have to deal with an enemy that can raid you and then flee back across the border, leaving you unable to retaliate because the other empire has closed their borders to you. If raiding mechanics are implemented I feel there definitely needs to be either an automatic casus belli allowing you to declare war on the raiders, or the ability to ignore closed borders for a period of time and conduct punitive expeditions/counter raids of your own.

Raids in CK2 are annoying in part because you have no real way to get back at the raiders except by declaring war on them. You could kill the raiding armies, for sure, but they could freely sack your holdings while you have no way to respond in kind.

If a bunch of alien corvettes cross into my empire's space and start plundering trade routes and generally making a mess of things, I should damn well be able to send a fleet across their borders and start blowing up their infrastructure and bombarding their planets in retaliation.
 
people lamenting at the suggestion of visible trade, resource or whatever else ships, like the policing units ... are you people crying your system is heavily taxed by the game ? My system is pretty good, but I dont in general play above standard 600 size. This way in lategame when I set ++ game speed, it gets to about 1/3 of what it was at the start, I mean 2200 vs 2600. If your fantasy immersiveness of size is what you are after, instead of a simulation of what is going on, it would seem that you are after making whole galaxies belong to you, because you dont care about the small things, how or why they work. No visual representation of mechanics mean quite a bit if you for example want to play on a 200 size. Because there isnt that much to do on that size. Crises can spawn a lot of stuff, AI did, my pc froze for some 10 seconds, I didnt realize at first what was going on. Still, some people have 2 thousand ship spawn on a screen and it seems to work ... but also, considering that pdx likes to milk their projects for years, one could also demand, not just ask, use some extortion tactic so that when they could rewrite the game for consoles, they could have someone rewrite the game for proper multicore.

The thing with civilian ships is that each could be doing exactly what it is supposed to, like bringing in resources for space construction. Construction ships doing job far away from stockpile would mean more expenses. Ships in combat could possibly need to refill ammo/energy or they become not as gret in combat. Staying in docks, patrolling is not the same as utilizing your whole arsenals.
 
Kind of wonder how this would interact with the border mechanic though; it would be incredibly annoying to have to deal with an enemy that can raid you and then flee back across the border, leaving you unable to retaliate because the other empire has closed their borders to you. If raiding mechanics are implemented I feel there definitely needs to be either an automatic casus belli allowing you to declare war on the raiders, or the ability to ignore closed borders for a period of time and conduct punitive expeditions/counter raids of your own.

Raids in CK2 are annoying in part because you have no real way to get back at the raiders except by declaring war on them. You could kill the raiding armies, for sure, but they could freely sack your holdings while you have no way to respond in kind.

If a bunch of alien corvettes cross into my empire's space and start plundering trade routes and generally making a mess of things, I should damn well be able to send a fleet across their borders and start blowing up their infrastructure and bombarding their planets in retaliation.

Part of the solution could be if you get raided then if the neighbor has closed borders then you can go to their border system(s) to you and then destroy the star base or raid planets. Probably simpler alternative would be you get a counter raid casus beli where you can attack the empires border systems and the extreme outcomes of the war can be

A) The aggressor of the war (the one who got raided and received the casus beli) can get reparations in the form of a monthly tribute.

B) The defenders of the war (the ones who raided in the first place) can either get a large lump sum payment from the other empire or I was thinking they could take a border system. But that could be a bit too extreme especially if its a high value system so maybe just receiving a lump sum of resources is more balanced.
 
@Wiz
Will every non hivemind race suffer under piracy? isnt it thinkable that some races have no actual concept of stealing (or what ever you wanna call it)?
making a gameplay mechanic out of a human concept and apply it to every possible alien race does not feel good imo.
Hivemind empires will not benefit from trade routes at all - hives would not use trade value feature at all.
So that's not "non-gestalt empires suffer under piracy", that's "non-gestalt empires possibly could benefit from trade".
 
people lamenting at the suggestion of visible trade, resource or whatever else ships, like the policing units ... are you people crying your system is heavily taxed by the game ? My system is pretty good, but I dont in general play above standard 600 size. This way in lategame when I set ++ game speed, it gets to about 1/3 of what it was at the start, I mean 2200 vs 2600. If your fantasy immersiveness of size is what you are after, instead of a simulation of what is going on, it would seem that you are after making whole galaxies belong to you, because you dont care about the small things, how or why they work. No visual representation of mechanics mean quite a bit if you for example want to play on a 200 size. Because there isnt that much to do on that size. Crises can spawn a lot of stuff, AI did, my pc froze for some 10 seconds, I didnt realize at first what was going on. Still, some people have 2 thousand ship spawn on a screen and it seems to work ... but also, considering that pdx likes to milk their projects for years, one could also demand, not just ask, use some extortion tactic so that when they could rewrite the game for consoles, they could have someone rewrite the game for proper multicore.

The thing with civilian ships is that each could be doing exactly what it is supposed to, like bringing in resources for space construction. Construction ships doing job far away from stockpile would mean more expenses. Ships in combat could possibly need to refill ammo/energy or they become not as gret in combat. Staying in docks, patrolling is not the same as utilizing your whole arsenals.

One of the biggest reasons why that late game slog exists is because the CPU is trying to calculate thousands of pop placements on tiles across hundreds of world's. Which as of 2.2 is just about eliminated.

The resource budget just got opened up drastically, and since a small graphic or model following a predetermined path isn't that incredibly resource intensive to begin with, at least not nearly as much as the pop problem, then why not have living systems? Especially now that obsurdly huge end game fleets are not quite as common since 2.0
 
One of the biggest reasons why that late game slog exists is because the CPU is trying to calculate thousands of pop placements on tiles across hundreds of world's. Which as of 2.2 is just about eliminated.

The resource budget just got opened up drastically, and since a small graphic or model following a predetermined path isn't that incredibly resource intensive to begin with, at least not nearly as much as the pop problem, then why not have living systems? Especially now that obsurdly huge end game fleets are not quite as common since 2.0

If anything else, we can just mod them in, we already have living systems from ISBS, we could just set that up to follow the trade routes.
 
It is a bit sad that the trade mechanics will be detatched from the very concept of galactic market... trade (and hopefully a future espionage mechanics) should be the way a small but tall empire (or a true pacifist one) can use to remain competitive against large and aggressive empires. In EU4 is substantially a way to collect other empires' resources without outright invade them and that is very cool. I hope that, in future, this will be the case also for stellaris.

Nervertheless, I am super excited for this update! :D
 
It is a bit sad that the trade mechanics will be detatched from the very concept of galactic market... trade (and hopefully a future espionage mechanics) should be the way a small but tall empire (or a true pacifist one) can use to remain competitive against large and aggressive empires. In EU4 is substantially a way to collect other empires' resources without outright invade them and that is very cool. I hope that, in future, this will be the case also for stellaris.

Nervertheless, I am super excited for this update! :D

I am also a bit disappointed. I would like to see that you don’t get to choose the trade routes. Instead it would always create a route to the 2 closest trade stations (be it in your own or another empires borders). Then you could create corporations (=merchants) to steer the trade. No stupid build ships and send on mission to increase steering power, instead this should be affected by technology, policies, relations to the empire the trade station is in (you would of course be able to send corporations to any trade station in the galaxy, but with different effiecency).

This system would make you have to really find the best locations for your trade stations (there would of course have to be some mechanic to discourage placing them to close), the best trade steering solution, you could ”steal” trade from your neighbours and there would be a reason to go to war to capture an important trading station. (Am also thinking that trade from a system should go to the nearest trade station, not nescessarily your own.)

@Wiz Isn’t this a good/better idea? Why would you get to choose your own trade routes? Doesn’t that sound very... communistic?
 
While I agree with some of the criticism and suggestions to connect the market and trade routes, I think that is beyond the scope of the update. It would be much harder to do mechanically, in particular to have a stable galactic economy, and much more difficult to teach the AI what to do with such a system. I don't want leguin to be released next Summer. Sorry.

The new economy / trade is a massive step forward and it will have enough problems with new bugs and balancing as it is. And we haven't even seen what the dlc is about.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned already, but it would be REALLY nice to have some visual representation of trade routes other than the map, such as fleets of small ships crossing systems where the route goes through.

It would go a loooong way for immersion to have a bustling space-state not just in numbers but also visually. Obviously being mindful of computing resources, these can be "particle-like" objects that only appear in systems (maybe only appear after a certain zoom level). No need to be actual ships that are individually tracked. Shouldn't be too hard to code and would be a huge immersion boost
 
@Wiz Isn’t this a good/better idea? Why would you get to choose your own trade routes? Doesn’t that sound very... communistic?
it means that you have rather dictatorial powers to decide what is good, so if you have that power, you can make a decree that this route is the official, will be state-sponsored, anything else will be impeded by the state power. The thing with individuals getting too much wealth is that they will translate said money power into political power, so it is quite oligarchic, isnt it.

State-ordered capitalism works. Do not think that just cause the USSR went down, that liviing standard was just terrible. Historically speaking, Russia before ww 1 was slowwly industrializing, there was always something that slowed down modernization. Russian state collapsed after the coup and after the bloodbath of civil war, after the terrorist takeover, you had Stalin, who in the 30s 5 year plan eletrcificated the whole of the hugely backward country. Famine natural and helped ? Slave labor, work camps until exhausting human resource while getting rid of political enemies ? Pretty useful for those in power at the time.

The US helped a lot with USSR automotive industries, but so did they help the Germany of the time. After the war, there were various arms races and for some reason, the state-owned capital was quite competitive. But at the same time, you should know that the starting positions of respective empires were different. The US economy for example was way ahead of everyone, stayed out of war for as much as possible, same in the second. When mutual and quick annihilation seemed inevitable, you had them turn to proxy wars. One empire was anti-imperialist and pro-peace, the other was pro-freedom and free market. Free market helps you if you have a defacto monopoly. Both camps have extensive propaganda brainwashing thier own people so in general they get to think the way either establishment wants. They both call themselves democracies. Peoples democracies, even. Yet, both were selfish.

Just because there was antagonism between these camps was there a need for constant arms race, rearmament. China for example didnt militarize like USSR and USA did. They didnt invade any Afghanistans, US greedy capitalists gave power to China and basically disenfranchised themselves from the US. Because profits, cheap labor at the time was so irresistible. When a state has no control over its economy, at least officially, you have independent players who care for their business first. Business first. Make busines great again. :D

I'm from a former commie country, so from memories of older people, the state did serve the people. There was differentiation whether you were in the Party. In which case, you were positively discriminated. If not, or if you were religious, you had a hard time going anywhere, because there was active suppression and commie ideology enforcement through easy-way sellout. Most of todays population in politics were in the Party, but they changed the red mantles for blue ones and all appears well. During them having red mantles, the state made sure that everyone worked. The state was able to either provide housing (not free unless you worked for a state company that actually needed you there etc. but I do not know much about this) The real elite however was the ruling bureaucracy of the party. Homelessnesss did not exist and the propaganda was always there to show you murrican homeless folks. In the 80s I thikn there were already two TV stations. Standard in schools, universities was much higher, you actually had to learn a LOT. Sciences were a thing. Sure you had political bs sometimes, like scientific communism :)D) but the economy in general worked. The state provided you with interest-free loans when building a house and stuff, but there was a limit to how much you could take. People who worked in building industry off official records made a lot of money. If you worked for a state company, you had to 'consumeI certain amount of material, and there was always spare so you had to get rid of it, meaning you were responsible to make it disappear. This way you had free material to work with. If you didnt drink, smoke, you didnt struggle. Said things were cheap then. Some Russians say we actually had a socialism when they came to our country, with a much better living standard. But it came at a price too. After the commie takeover my grand- something were actual capitalists, they were marked as kulaks, burgeouisie and most of their property was taken with 'compensation' either you sold for almost free you land and all you got and worked for your whole life or generations even, or they took it from you, and gave you 1/20 of that for some reason. Before, they were the richest around, after that, something was left but little. Your stuff was now state property. You could even work with it. Fast forward, those ppl and their children would be working the field, hardly getting educated. Commies forced more education for everybody. And it wasnt just going to school. It did produce more productive generation. When it comes to corruoption, it was famous. But at first, people were afraid to steal anything. After the war the situation was pretty bad. After the system stabilized, people in general got used to it and in general to get something done, you needed the right connection and right bribe. In the 80s, the system was in decline, moral even. Stealing from the state company was the norm for higher-ups and elsewhere. It was individual, but peoples selfishness and a weakening state oversight and a lack of punishment brought about the economic collapse. Not just western-inspired oil shocks etc. People in many cases really thought about the greener grass on the other side. Im not even saying that the state no longer has an actual free healthcare even though it is written in our constitution. For many things you have to pay something. Considering the lack of warmongering in the past 25 years, I wonder how our living standard didnt skyrocket. No neighbor quarrels, Russia too far to be our problem, minds its own interest in its backyard. New political system, old and new problems. People still are propagandized by new propaganda, west da best, that is out of touch with reality just like commie propaganda. Rich former commies control both political spectra and control said parties that make the political scene, doing so, their companies get to do government-ordered jobs, financed from 'bottomless pit' of state budget. Most of said politicians lick the backsides of overseas imperials, just changed from their usual pre-coup licking on the other side. Sometimes they beat the drums how we need to be afraid, Russia overthere !!! Antidemocratic !!! They are trusted like used toilet paper. Think of this : Commie takeover, take your stuff, basically, state stuff is sort of your too. After another coup, that your stuff that was at least partially yours, was taken from you completely by privatization, without compensation. Call it a day, and appear like you didnt get robbed :D

Sorry if this got off-topic a bit :p This is just an info-thing stuck for some heads-up wall of text.
 
With gates how the trade route will be use the optimal one go to the capital eliminating piracy risk? Or travel with obsolete hyperlink?