Stellaris Dev Diary #132 - Ecumenopolis and Megastructures

[Lanrete]

Where did they state this? In everything we’ve been shown about megacorps they can have a variety of ethics, including egalitarian ones. I’m not aware of any time they’ve said that this won’t give the same benefits to megacorps as regular empires (such as unlocking policies like utopian abundance).

A civic!=an ethic!=a government system.

Two similar systems can unlock different civics (and even be reshaped by them into smth new), but the systems themselves remain the same.

The oligarchy system is a system where a society is ruled by a small group of elites. In Stellaris, an oligarchy is defined by a small election pool, and an election every 20 years. The same system is used by/in a megacorp ruling sustem. And the dev's stated it somewhere, but where- I don't remember. Perhaps in the last devblog.

 

[Lanrete]

Please don't make ecumenopolis having 100% habitability by default. Forge worlds being as good for life as gaya ones are really anticlimatic. If anything they should have less habitability than the original planet so that there would be at least some sense to use habitability techs/traits and gaya terraforming.

A compact and powerful air-generator is much more effective than a large forest inhabited by dangerous beasts, and can support a much larger population in much better conditions. An in-game proof: the 100% artificial habitats have 100% habitability. And the spaceships- do they have gaya worlds inside, or is the crew...undead?

 

[Calvax]

A civic!=an ethic!=a government system.

Obviously, whatever point you’re trying to make with that as it relates to what I’ve said is unclear.

Two similar systems can unlock different civics (and even be reshaped by them into smth new), but the systems themselves remain the same.

Ethics can unlock/restrict government types and civics, government types can also unlock/restrict civics. Megacorps can be chosen by any ethic aside from gestalt and the megacorp government type locks normal civics and unlocks the megacorp specific civics. As far as I’m aware there have been no megacorp civics revealed that require certain ethics to be present or absent. Again I fail to see how this relates to anything I’ve said.

The oligarchy system is a system where a society is ruled by a small group of elites. In Stellaris, and oligarchy is defined by a small election pool, and an election every 20 years. The same system is used by/in a megacorp ruling sustem. And the dev's stated it somewhere.

No oligarchy in stellaris is determined by whether or not you select the oligarchy government type. You then have small pool elections every 40 years and your society will be structured in a way that lower strata have less political power and consumer goods as higher ones (depending on civics). Megacorps might share small pools but elect every 20 years and are capable, via the egalitarian ethic, of having very equal stratas and even could abolish class divisions by adopting the utopian abundance civic. A minor similarity between megacorp election pools and oligarchal doesn’t make the former the latter.

 

[Lanrete]

Obviously, whatever point you’re trying to make with that as it relates to what I’ve said is unclear.





Ethics can unlock/restrict government types and civics, government types can also unlock/restrict civics. Megacorps can be chosen by any ethic aside from gestalt and the megacorp government type locks normal civics and unlocks the megacorp specific civics. As far as I’m aware there have been no megacorp civics revealed that require certain ethics to be present or absent. Again I fail to see how this relates to anything I’ve said.





No oligarchy in stellaris is determined by whether or not you select the oligarchy government type. You then have small pool elections every 40 years and your society will be structured in a way that lower strata have less political power and consumer goods as higher ones (depending on civics). Megacorps might share small pools but elect every 20 years and are capable, via the egalitarian ethic, of having very equal stratas and even could abolish class divisions by adopting the utopian abundance civic. A minor similarity between megacorp election pools and oligarchal doesn’t make the former the latter.

>Obviously, whatever point you’re trying to make with that as it relates to what I’ve said is unclear.
The point is: just because two similar government types have different civic systems, doesn't mean that the governing system itself is not the same. Both the oligarchy and the corporate oligarchy have the same election pool, the same election every 20 years.
>Ethics can unlock/restrict government types and civics, government types can also unlock/restrict civics. Megacorps can be chosen by any ethic aside from gestalt and the megacorp government type locks normal civics and unlocks the megacorp specific civics. As far as I’m aware there have been no megacorp civics revealed that require certain ethics to be present or absent. Again I fail to see how this relates to anything I’ve said.
I wasn't speaking about ethics, I was speaking about the government type. Megacorp government- is the same as the oligachy one.
>No oligarchy in stellaris is determined by whether or not you select the oligarchy government type.
Em, what? If you choose oligachy- you have some form of oligachy. You do not get a dictatorship or a democracy by choosing oligachy. It is logical and factual.
>You then have small pool elections every 40 years and your society will be structured in a way that lower strata have less political power and consumer goods as higher ones (depending on civics).
It is a type of oligarchy.
>Megacorps might share small pools but elect every 20 years and are capable, via the egalitarian ethic, of having very equal stratas and even could abolish class divisions by adopting the utopian abundance civic.
And it doesn't change the fact, that they are oligarchies.
>A minor similarity between megacorp election pools and oligarchal doesn’t make the former the latter.
Yes it does.

An oligachy is NOT defined by "how egalitarian people are and how abundant everything is/ how unegalitarian everything is and how poor everyone is.

An oligarchy is a TYPE OF GOVERNMENT, where a group of elites rules the country. You just mistake government types, ethics and civics.

Just because you have a civic that makes the empire much more "moral"- it doesn't change the fact that the group of 6-8 people who rule the country are oligarchs. Just because you have some stuff that makes it all peacefull and utopian- doesn't make a monarchy into a democracy, no. If a country is ruled by a queen, who has a sucessor- it remains a monarchy in any case. The same with all other types of governments. I repeat- you mistake government type and ethics.

 

[Calvax]

The fact that the megacorp leader pool is small and elections are 20 years (which is different to oligarchy) in no way makes megacorps oligarchies akin to the actual government type. Aside from that everything else is different, as I’ve repeatedly pointed out this includes political power of strata. A megacorp with fanatic egalitarianism and utopian abundance plays nothing like an oligarchy, because it isn’t one. You’re oddly hung up on just one trait shared with oligarchies to the point you’re willfully ignoring every way they are different.

 

[Vitruvian Guar]

A compact and powerful air-generator is much more effective than a large forest inhabited by dangerous beasts, and can support a much larger population in much better conditions. An in-game proof: the 100% artificial habitats have 100% habitability. And the spaceships- do they have gaya worlds inside, or is the crew...undead?

Habitability isn't just about air or water. Personally I don't like that habitats have perfect habitability as well, but at least it has some justification as the habitats are optimized for the comfortable life of your people. And there is a trade off here. Habitats can't support many pops but those who are supported live in good conditions.
Ecumenopolis, on the other hand, is optimized for population density. It correlates with habitability to some extent but in the end, the nature of optimization process is simple: if anything can be sacrificed in favour of the optimization goal - than it will be. So there are more compact appartments but less air generators - just enough to actually breath but not too deeply.

 

[John Rusher]

Will we ever be able to Upgrade Habitats?

I mean, unless habitats become shell-worlds, you could always build more habitats around a planet, until it is covered in a shell of habitats.

It would be easy to limit the size too - just limit the level of habitats based on the planet size - cannot have more living space than the planet itself, unless it becomes a shell-world. IE if the planet has 13 living space you can build 2 habitat levels, and then you have to turn it into shell-world with 15 tiles (which you cannot build habitats on for balance sake).

The Ascension perk "Galactic Wonders" is already being buffed by giving you all best megastructures, so why not give a lil-buff for Habitats?

 

[Lanrete]

The fact that the megacorp leader pool is small and elections are 20 years (which is different to oligarchy) in no way makes megacorps oligarchies akin to the actual government type. Aside from that everything else is different, as I’ve repeatedly pointed out this includes political power of strata. A megacorp with fanatic egalitarianism and utopian abundance plays nothing like an oligarchy, because it isn’t one. You’re oddly hung up on just one trait shared with oligarchies to the point you’re willfully ignoring every way they are different.

If a country is ruled by a small exclusive group- the country is oligarchic, regardless of life standards, powers of other strata (as long as the oligarchs powers are not cut so low that they are removed, or as long as an oligarch doesn't become so powerfull that he turns into a dictator).

A fanatic egalitarian and utopian oligachy is still an oligarchy. And if I'm not mistaken, fanatic egalitarism and oligarchy are exclusive, as true egalitarianism does not support the fact that the government is ruled by a bunch of elites, instead of a democracy.
Oligarchic

• Oligarchic elections
• 
  20 year term
• Rulers have agendas
• Emergency elections (at 250 Influence)

• 
  Fanatic Authoritarian
• 
  Fanatic Egalitarian
• 
  Gestalt Consciousness

Oligarchic governments are ruled by a small group of individuals that hold all political power.

 

[Lanrete]

Habitability isn't just about air or water. Personally I don't like that habitats have perfect habitability as well, but at least it has some justification as the habitats are optimized for the comfortable life of your people. And there is a trade off here. Habitats can't support many pops but those who are supported live in good conditions.
Ecumenopolis, on the other hand, is optimized for population density. It correlates with habitability to some extent but in the end, the nature of optimization process is simple: if anything can be sacrificed in favour of the optimization goal - than it will be. So there are more compact appartments but less air generators - just enough to actually breath but not too deeply.

Habitability IS about air and water. And food, and a good temperature/pressure. Just because there is no wild fox in a habitat- it doesn't spoil the habitability. There is nothing "magical" in making water, air, and food better than a forest, especially if the civilisation can create habitable starships, ringworlds, psyonic shields and cyborgs. There is nothing special in tailoring the surrounding conditions to a biological organism. We already have autonomous submarines, hydroponic yards, bunker-vaults, etc. If we can make habitable habitats- we can create artificial habitability. And if we can create it- we can create an advanced, 100% habitability.

 

[Calvax]

If a country is ruled by a small exclusive group- the country is oligarchic, regardless of life standards, powers of other strata (as long as the oligarchs powers are not cut so low that they are removed, or as long as an oligarch doesn't become so powerfull that he turns into a dictator).

Which is not explicitly the case in megacorps.

A fanatic egalitarian and utopian oligachy is still an oligarchy. And if I'm not mistaken, fanatic egalitarism and oligarchy are exclusive, as true egalitarianism does not support the fact that the government is ruled by a bunch of elites, instead of a democracy.
Oligarchic

• Oligarchic elections
• 
  20 year term
• Rulers have agendas
• Emergency elections (at 250 Influence)

• 
  Fanatic Authoritarian
• 
  Fanatic Egalitarian
• 
  Gestalt Consciousness

Oligarchic governments are ruled by a small group of individuals that hold all political power.

The oligarchy government type and the megacorp government type are different government types. You realise that right? An empire in stellaris can’t be oligarchic and fanatic egalitarian, as far a small I am aware you can be megacorp and fanatic egalitarian.

EDIT: quoting the last dev diary (131):

the Corporate authority does not have a special ethic, but rather can support any combination of the regular empire ethics

 

[Lanrete]

Which is not explicitly the case in megacorps.



The oligarchy government type and the megacorp government type are different government types. You realise that right? An empire in stellaris can’t be oligarchic and fanatic egalitarian, as far a small I am aware you can be megacorp and fanatic egalitarian.

>Which is not explicitly the case in megacorps.

Oh, but it is. They are ruled by a small group of elites=they are an oligarchy.
If they were ruled by the people- they would be a democracy.
If they were ruled by a life-term ruler, with a sucessor who is chosen only by the fact that he or she is a son/daughter of the ruler- it is a monarchy (even if the monarch's powers are super limited).

>The oligarchy government type and the megacorp government type are different government types. You realise that right?
No, they are not. Repeat: they both are ruled by a small group of elites. A small group of elites type of government=oligachy.

>fanatic egalitarian
So, what? How does it change the fact, that the oligarchic rulers are... oligarchs?


A type of government is defined by the type of government itself, not by life standards in the empire, by slavery or it's removal, by xenophobia or xenophilia, no.

A despotic democracy is ''still'' a democracy. A despotic democracy.
An utopian monarchy is ''still'' a monarchy. An utopian monarchy.

Democracy, or monarchy, or oligachy, or dictatorship are NOT defined by utopism/despotism and other such things.

 

[Arkangilos]

If the argument is over why mega corporations are different than oligarchies it's because in an oligarchy the political power is still in the public government. In MegaCorp government power is privatized, so it's not a public entity.

Think of it like the Aliens expanded universe. Actual countries still existed (proof of which is the USCM). However, all of the nations had no more legitimate power because the corporations usurped it from them. You could still be a US citizen, but the US wasn't important to you, your company was. The company took on the role of the government in pretty much every aspect.

So rather than national interests you have company interests. The traditional oligarchies would still care about the national interests, where as a megacorp could still have planets with nations, but the people report to the company rather than the nation.

 

[Calvax]

This conversation is going nowhere. Check dev diary 131, corporate government type is a separate thing to oligarchic government types. They share an election mechanic but megacorps are not explicity oligarchic. The details of their political system is dependent on their ethics and policies.

 

[Arkangilos]

>Which is not explicitly the case in megacorps.

Oh, but it is. They are ruled by a small group of elites=they are an oligarchy.
If they were ruled by the people- they would be a democracy.
If they were ruled by a life-term ruler, with a sucessor who is chosen only by the fact that he or she is a son/daughter of the ruler- it is a monarchy (even if the monarch's powers are super limited).

>The oligarchy government type and the megacorp government type are different government types. You realise that right?
No, they are not. Repeat: they both are ruled by a small group of elites. A small group of elites type of government=oligachy.

>fanatic egalitarian
So, what? How does it change the fact, that the oligarchic rulers are... oligarchs?


A type of government is defined by the type of government itself, not by life standards in the empire, by slavery or it's removal, by xenophobia or xenophilia, no.

A despotic democracy is still a democracy.
An utopian monarchy is still a monarchy.

You realize that there are corporations run by the people, right? Like share holders vote on a board of directors, vote on decisions they make, vote to confirm the CEO's, etc? Corporations exist in many shapes and sizes, from privately owned to publically traded. I've been in one that was authoritarian with the CEO not having to report to anyone (she was the owner), and I've seen some that are basically democracies.

 

[Lanrete]

This conversation is going nowhere. Check dev diary 131, corporate government type is a separate thing to oligarchic government types. They share an election mechanic but megacorps are not explicity oligarchic. The details of their political system is dependent on their ethics and policies.

If they have the same election mechanic- they are the same government type- the corporations is oligachic.

>the details

If the details do not change the election system- they are irrelevant. I repeat "Oligarchic governments are ruled by a small group of individuals that hold all political power.".
It is the same with the corporate government. So, the game itself states, that a corporation is oligarchic.

If we have oligarchs- they remain oligarchs, regardless of life levels in the empire, xenophobia or xenophile axis, etc.

 

[Lanrete]

If the argument is over why mega corporations are different than oligarchies it's because in an oligarchy the political power is still in the public government. In MegaCorp government power is privatized, so it's not a public entity.

Think of it like the Aliens expanded universe. Actual countries still existed (proof of which is the USCM). However, all of the nations had no more legitimate power because the corporations usurped it from them. You could still be a US citizen, but the US wasn't important to you, your company was. The company took on the role of the government in pretty much every aspect.

So rather than national interests you have company interests. The traditional oligarchies would still care about the national interests, where as a megacorp could still have planets with nations, but the people report to the company rather than the nation.

A megacorp in the context of stellaris is a "government" and a "country". It replaces a "normal" empire with a corporate empire/republic.

 

[Lanrete]

You realize that there are corporations run by the people, right? Like share holders vote on a board of directors, vote on decisions they make, vote to confirm the CEO's, etc? Corporations exist in many shapes and sizes, from privately owned to publically traded. I've been in one that was authoritarian with the CEO not having to report to anyone (she was the owner), and I've seen some that are basically democracies.

I was speaking about the corporations in stellaris, not corporations in general. And in stellaris, they are run the same way as an oligachy.

 

[Arkangilos]

A megacorp in the context of stellaris is a "government" and a "country". It replaces a "normal" empire with a corporate empire/republic.

How does this at all contradict what I said?

In the context of my example the corps were also replacements for the government. The point is that it's private, not public. As in rather than a public government, it's a privately owned one.

 

[Lanrete]

How does this at all contradict what I said?

In the context of my example the corps were also replacements for the government. The point is that it's private, not public. As in rather than a public government, it's a privately owned one.

It contradict you words about the difference between a "normal" government and a corporation in stellaris. The corps can be public, just as a "normal" government. And a normal can be privatized.

 

[Arkangilos]

I don't think you know what privatized and public mean...

Public corporations are still private companies.

A privately owned government isn't possible unless it's a corporation.

Basically if I make a corporation and decide that the corporation is public, it means it goes on the stock exchange and you can buy a piece of it. When you buy a piece you own a piece.

If I decide to make it private, then unless I directly sell you a piece, or die, only I own it. You get no part of it.