Stellaris Dev Diary #143 - Changes to megastructures

[Muramas]

I am of the mind that megastructures should be coming sooner but maybe of a smaller version that you can build into a much larger version with later tech. This is compounded by the fact that they take so long to build and you basically get them currently all at once.

 

[CrazyZombie]

I am of the mind that megastructures should be coming sooner but maybe of a smaller version that you can build into a much larger version with later tech. This is compounded by the fact that they take so long to build and you basically get them currently all at once.

That's an interesting idea for some of them. Don't see how the HQ for the fleet can't be built right at the start (~50-100 years) and grow in size and effect with time.

 

[BKazu]

Dear Devs,

Since your work suppose to give players less annoying micromanagement and more fun from playing, could you please answer to following two simple questions:

1. When we will get one button which will transfer all unemployed populations from planets without workplaces to planets with jobs to take?

2. When we will get one button which will transfer all homeless populations from overcrowded planets to worlds with free housing districts?

 

[Peko?]

I am of the mind that megastructures should be coming sooner but maybe of a smaller version that you can build into a much larger version with later tech. This is compounded by the fact that they take so long to build and you basically get them currently all at once.

You could put the different levels of the Mega Structures behind successively higher tier techs. Say that a tier 3 Physics tech unlocks the installations site and first level of the Sentry Array and Science Nexus a tier 5 unlocks level 2 and a tier 6 gated behind Mega Engineering unlocks level 3. Then give the same treatment to the Strategic Coordination Center, Mega Art Installation, and Interstellar assembly but behind three Society techs. It would probably be necessary to rejigger the separate levels so that the finished mega structures have a bit more oomph rather than the linear progression we have now.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I'm going to the chorus of 'tie megastructures to different ascension perks crowd', but maybe change void borne to be the pre-requisite for unlocking mega structures, and linking the following to each other:

Ringworlds, Dyson Spheres, Matter Decompressor - Galactic Wonders

Art Installation - One Mind
Co-ordination Center - Eternal Vigilance
Galactic Embassy - Stronger Together
Sentry Array - Enigmatic Engineering
Science Nexus - Technological Asendency

Whilst people argue this makes these still pointless picks because the min/max power gamer meta would mean one or two would edge out over others, this will happen with the new system anyway. Under the new proposals, the meta would be to build a science nexus ASAP to research the other megastructure techs quicker, so this would be 'the only option'

Tying them to ascensions means you're sacrificing slots to gain something you may want, and these combos generally strengthen the megastructures themselves as you need to pick ascensions that add a buff to what bonus the structure provides in general.

Plus by forcing these into their own tiers, you do add some more dynamic play in single player which does actually matter (as in multiplayer - min/maxers gonna min/max)

NB: Mega Engineering could maybe exist not to gatekeep megastructures but maybe to reduce build time perhaps as a late game tech.

 

[Tech Noir Synth]

I'm going to the chorus of 'tie megastructures to different ascension perks crowd', but maybe change void borne to be the pre-requisite for unlocking mega structures, and linking the following to each other:

Ringworlds, Dyson Spheres, Matter Decompressor - Galactic Wonders

Art Installation - One Mind
Co-ordination Center - Eternal Vigilance
Galactic Embassy - Stronger Together
Sentry Array - Enigmatic Engineering
Science Nexus - Technological Asendency

If your goal is to reduce the variety in megastructures greatly, then you will achieve it by doing exactly this. Why take away options from players? Not all megastructures are equally useful, but that doesn't mean everyone builds the same every time. Don't force players to take Ascencion perks to unlock megastructures. With your list I would never be building the art installation, coordination center or sentry array.

I don't understand the goal of this. Do you want to cater to the roleplaying part of players? So you artificially force them into ascencion perks they don't want, or they would consider picking up anyway to go with the roleplay. Nothing is gained in this case.

For everyone who simply wants to build megastructures like they used to this is a terrible idea. This doesnt change how view Ascencion perks either. We already got some reworks and buffs to ascencion perks recently but some are still missing it. You don't make them more attractive by taking a huge chunk of options away and split them up.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

If your goal is to reduce the variety in megastructures greatly, then you will achieve it by doing exactly this

How are you reducing variety? The options are still there...

Why take away options from players? Not all megastructures are equally useful, but that doesn't mean everyone builds the same every time. Don't force players to take Ascencion perks to unlock megastructures.

There is no option currently except 'do I want mega structures Y/N?' where the answer is 90% of the time yes. My suggestion essentially puts habitats as the gatekeeper to megastructures instead of a 'lucky dip' tech that you gain late in the game. At that point, players choose the asenscion perk they want based on either the megastructure that comes with it, the inherent bonus of the perk, or both. That's not restricting choice, it's making those choices meaningful.

With your list I would never be building the art installation, coordination center or sentry array.

You're making choices as a player, so you're kind of proving my point...

I don't understand the goal of this. Do you want to cater to the roleplaying part of players? So you artificially force them into ascencion perks they don't want, or they would consider picking up anyway to go with the roleplay. Nothing is gained in this case.

Not neccesarily, if I want to build a sentry array, I'll probably be role playing a race that's into mysterious tech. If I want a race that wishes to build a galactic sized embassy to welcome other species, I'll want the stronger together perk. To make sure my military is capable of defending its borders, maybe I'd want some of big, military centre to co-ordinate the fleets, or maybe my empires culture is homogenised to the point where the overall expression of what my culture represents can be displayed as a massive art installation in space.

I don't get where there is a jarring of what the perks represent and what that allows to be built as a structure.

For everyone who simply wants to build megastructures like they used to this is a terrible idea.

The dev diary shows that won't be possible anyway, as you'll be rushing your science nexus to gain your optional megastructures.

 

[anamiac]

Currently each tradition tree has 1 to unlock, 5 traditions, and you get and endcap bonus + asc. perk when you get the 5th tradition.

What I would like to see is each tradition tree having 1 to unlock, ~8 traditions, and the endcap bonus + asc. perk still at the 5th tradition. Thus, traditions 6-8 are pretty optional. The most common route - especially in the early game - would be to unlock the first 5 traditions for the ascension perk and then move on to the next tree for its ascension perk. However, maybe at some point you want to revisit and pick up the optional traditions that you skipped.

Some or all galactic wonders could be gated behind these optional traditions. So we could end up with something like this:

• Exploration - tradition 6 unlocks habitats, 7 & 8 both require 6 and make habitats bigger or better.
• Domination - None of the optional traditions happen to be megastructure related.
• Prosperity - 6 = Dyson sphere, 7 = Mega Art Installation, 8 gives some bonus to megastructure manufacture capabilities.
• Harmony - Ring worlds and bonuses to them.
• Supremacy - One of these traditions could unlock the Strategic Coordination Center.
• Diplomacy - One of these traditions unlocks the Interstellar Assembly.
• Discovery - 6 - a physics research facility that can be built in place of the tier III science building and produces more physics, less society and engineering than the base. 7 - ditto but with society. 8 - ditto but with engineering.

That isn't to say that these megastructures would be gated solely by their traditions. Many of them could also require specific technologies and/or ascension perks before they could be built.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Currently each tradition tree has 1 to unlock, 5 traditions, and you get and endcap bonus + asc. perk when you get the 5th tradition.

What I would like to see is each tradition tree having 1 to unlock, ~8 traditions, and the endcap bonus + asc. perk still at the 5th tradition. Thus, traditions 6-8 are pretty optional. The most common route - especially in the early game - would be to unlock the first 5 traditions for the ascension perk and then move on to the next tree for its ascension perk. However, maybe at some point you want to revisit and pick up the optional traditions that you skipped.

Some or all galactic wonders could be gated behind these optional traditions. So we could end up with something like this:

• Exploration - tradition 6 unlocks habitats, 7 & 8 both require 6 and make habitats bigger or better.
• Domination - None of the optional traditions happen to be megastructure related.
• Prosperity - 6 = Dyson sphere, 7 = Mega Art Installation, 8 gives some bonus to megastructure manufacture capabilities.
• Harmony - Ring worlds and bonuses to them.
• Supremacy - One of these traditions could unlock the Strategic Coordination Center.
• Diplomacy - One of these traditions unlocks the Interstellar Assembly.
• Discovery - 6 - a physics research facility that can be built in place of the tier III science building and produces more physics, less society and engineering than the base. 7 - ditto but with society. 8 - ditto but with engineering.

That isn't to say that these megastructures would be gated solely by their traditions. Many of them could also require specific technologies and/or ascension perks before they could be built.

I like this more than I like tying the Megastructures to finished Tradition trees, but I still see a problem in that it allows all empires to unlock all megastructures. The Traditions system really need a rework to include mutually-exclusive options.

 

[anamiac]

I like this more than I like tying the Megastructures to finished Tradition trees, but I still see a problem in that it allows all empires to unlock all megastructures. The Traditions system really need a rework to include mutually-exclusive options.

Hmm... What if you could only ever research optional technologies in at most five of the seven trees?
IE, you have to get 3 ascension perks before you can pick up your first optional tradition, at which point you may research all 3 in that tree if you desire.
Getting your fourth ascension perk would allow you to research optional traditions in a second, and your fifth ascension perk would allow you to have optional traditions in up to three trees...

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Hmm... What if you could only ever research optional technologies in at most five of the seven trees?
IE, you have to get 3 ascension perks before you can pick up your first optional tradition, at which point you may research all 3 in that tree if you desire.
Getting your fourth ascension perk would allow you to research optional traditions in a second, and your fifth ascension perk would allow you to have optional traditions in up to three trees...

At that point we're getting into an entirely new mechanic for locking out research options based on other things you've researched, which is a whole other discussion.

 

[Peko?]

Currently each tradition tree has 1 to unlock, 5 traditions, and you get and endcap bonus + asc. perk when you get the 5th tradition.

What I would like to see is each tradition tree having 1 to unlock, ~8 traditions, and the endcap bonus + asc. perk still at the 5th tradition. Thus, traditions 6-8 are pretty optional. The most common route - especially in the early game - would be to unlock the first 5 traditions for the ascension perk and then move on to the next tree for its ascension perk. However, maybe at some point you want to revisit and pick up the optional traditions that you skipped.

Some or all galactic wonders could be gated behind these optional traditions. So we could end up with something like this:

• Exploration - tradition 6 unlocks habitats, 7 & 8 both require 6 and make habitats bigger or better.
• Domination - None of the optional traditions happen to be megastructure related.
• Prosperity - 6 = Dyson sphere, 7 = Mega Art Installation, 8 gives some bonus to megastructure manufacture capabilities.
• Harmony - Ring worlds and bonuses to them.
• Supremacy - One of these traditions could unlock the Strategic Coordination Center.
• Diplomacy - One of these traditions unlocks the Interstellar Assembly.
• Discovery - 6 - a physics research facility that can be built in place of the tier III science building and produces more physics, less society and engineering than the base. 7 - ditto but with society. 8 - ditto but with engineering.

That isn't to say that these megastructures would be gated solely by their traditions. Many of them could also require specific technologies and/or ascension perks before they could be built.

In general I'd much prefer it if there were another couple of traditions rather than expanding the current ones. Just another three while keeping the max of seven would greatly increase the possible variety of Empires. Stellaris needs some more mutually exclusive options.

 

[Snoipah]

I said nerf galactic wonders ages ago.

Does the galactic wonders perk require megaengineering? Because a lot of people the minmaxers like myself are taking voidborne just to be able to get master builder/megaengineering faster.

 

[RoverStorm]

We are making some changes to Galactic Wonders so that it no longer unlocks all megastructures, but rather only unlocks the most powerful megastructures.

I think you made a mistake: the image clearly shows Ringworlds are also gated behind Galactic Wonders.

 

[Millbot]

Here's the thing. I'm wiling to be the typical bare bones perk builds will look something like this, if megastructures end up being optional

Non-hivemind bio & not stuck on idyllic from the start: Ascension path (2 perks), Project Arcology, Technology Ascendancy (I don't see how this doesn't become something that is considered mandatory for most players, since it's one of the few ways to combat RNG with rare techs) & Master Builders (megastructures take a long time to build and you aren't always guaranteed to have access to liquid metal. Heck even if you have the unity & liquid metal for the edicts, no one would pass up the chance of lowering the build time further if they are going to build these things). That leaves the player with 3 perks.

Idyllic, would have four optional perks if they stuck to their guns and didn't cheese things, but there is the option to either start without pick agrarian idyll or dropping it later. I think the preferred strategy is to add it on after getting enough Ecumenopoli, which would drop things down to three.

Hivemind, pretty much ends up in the same spot. Their just stuck grabbing only bio ascension & switch out project arcology for hive worlds.

Machine is at four since their equivalent of ascension paths is only one perk & they pick up machine worlds instead of project arcology.

I don't see arbitrarily locking megastructures behind perks for the sake of creating the illusion of choice, changes that dynamic. Hell, the worst case scenario is that this results in even less choices because we end up being wrong and people end up feeling that something can't be passed up. Though you also get a new problem of the perk being rather reviled because not only is it required, but part of it is considered trash.

Also people are kidding themselves if they think their issue isn't trying to constrain power builders. If the garbage tier perks were fun, one would be picking them in solo play because at that point you're aren't dealing with power gamers. I'd wager a fair chunk of them aren't commonly getting picked because they are neither fun nor useful. I'd rather not stick megastructures on for rather arbitrary reasons because it's not really solving the issue of them not being fun, nor does it deal with the fact that the original aspect behind them is till largely useless.

Again, tired of samey empires, start with pushing for more background civics that force choices. I mean, they could even change some of the existing ones to account for megastructures. I'm pretty sure inner perfectionists would likely have zero interest in the sentry array & wouldn't want a galactic assembly (now they might want a structure that they put on the borders full of staff that work hard to make sure the xenos stay out and leave them be). Maybe we get a pacifist civic where they don't build the strategic coordination center because that's too warlike. Or we get a civic where they absolutely hate art. Don't really see any space faring societies forgoing having a massive science stations because that would be an absolutely stupid thing to do.

Though I do think some of the issue with people being so in love with the terrible idea of "let's tack these on too perks," is that they don't like the idea of more RNG. Vitruvian Guar's idea isn't bad for dealing with this because it would be less arbitrary and would actually add some meaningful choices. You focus on research stuff & you're likely to draw the science nexus, but that comes at the expense of it being harder to draw the strategic coordination center because you prioritized the science traditions, civics & perks over military related stuff. I also like Muramas's idea to a certain extend because that would let these structures come into play sooner, which is part of the issue with the current structures, but it has a major issue in that it likely brings in more RNG because each stage of the structures would be another tech ala starbase upgrade research tech.

 

[doomwarrior]

Im feeling like this entire Megastructures discussion is not what we need right now with stellaris. I really really hope this is just a filler topic to have more time to get to the nitty gritty Micromanagement, AI, UI stuff, that really bothers so many people. Its hard to even find players anymore these days willing to play a bigger round even with nearly 350 ppl in the german multiplayer steam group. Mostly because of those things. Hell even i cant bring myself to play wide anymore, its tedious. So i really feel like this is something i couldnt care less about.

But if you must:
Make it interessting choices that unlock step by step and much sooner and possibly are a path that takes a while to finish. Each step of a megastructure could be a tech. Ringworld 1-5 for each step etc. You start early, you finish late and it´s with you from early midgame till lategame. And they need to be soooo much better in their final stage, all of them basically.

Also give us midgame smaller semi mega structures we can build on asteroides, moons, barren worlds etc. Heck there is tons of minerals, energy and research to be gained there...

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

Alright, how about this for a ringworld...
8 sections
8 districts per section
Each district can be housing, food, or energy, like now
But provide like 25 housing and jobs for the farming continent/generator arcology districts, and like 50 housing for the megalopolis district.

There, double the buildings and 32% of the sprawl. That'd be worth it (considering how long it'll take to actually fill up the pops).

 

[Peko?]

Im feeling like this entire Megastructures discussion is not what we need right now with stellaris. I really really hope this is just a filler topic to have more time to get to the nitty gritty Micromanagement, AI, UI stuff, that really bothers so many people.

There's also the aspect that "We're still working on the AI" isn't a very compelling Dev Diary.

 

[Methone]

There's also the aspect that "We're still working on the AI" isn't a very compelling Dev Diary.

Well I mean, would it make you feel better if they dumped a novel of technical jargon on us?

 

[Ur-Quan Lord 13]

Well I mean, would it make you feel better if they dumped a novel of technical jargon on us?

I'd enjoy it.