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Stellaris Dev Diary #152 - Summer Experimentation

Hello everyone!

Summer vacations are reaching their end and most of the team is back as of last week. Work has started again and we're really excited for what we have in store for the rest of the year.

While most of us have been away during most of the summer, we’ve also had some people who worked during July. July is a very good time to try out different designs and concepts that we might not otherwise have time to do, and today we thought it might be fun for you to see some of the experiments we ran during that period of hiatus.

Although we learned some useful insights, these experiments didn’t end up being good enough to make a reality.

Industrial Districts
As I have mentioned earlier, I have wanted to find a better solution for how we handle the production of alloys and consumer goods. I often felt like the experience of developing a planet felt better with an Ecumenopolis rather than with a regular planet. I think a lot of it had to do with their unique districts and that it feels better to get the jobs from constructing districts rather than buildings. Not necessarily as an emotion reaction to the choice, but rather that the choice perhaps feels more “pure” or simple.

An experiment I wanted to run was to see if it was possible to add an industrial district that provided Laborer jobs, instead of having buildings for Metallurgists and Artisans. Laborers would produce both alloys and consumer goods but could be shifted towards producing more of either.

This meant we added a 5th district, the Industrial District. By adding another district we also needed to reduce the number of building slots available. Since there would be no more need for buildings that produced alloys and consumer goods, this should still end up being similar.

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A Laborer would consume 8 minerals to produce 2 alloys and 4 consumer goods, and that amount could be modified in either direction by passing a Decision. What I wanted was to have an industry that could have a military and civilian output, and where you could adjust the values between these outputs.

Having a laborer job that generates an “industrial output”, which could be translated into either alloys or consumer goods did feel good, but the specific solution we used didn’t feel quite right.

City Districts & Building slots
Another experiment was to see how it felt if city districts unlock building slots instead of pops. This experiment didn’t have a specific problem or issue it was trying to address but rather it was to investigate how that would feel and work. It was interesting but ultimately it felt less fun than the current implementation. It would have needed more time to see if it could be made to work.
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This experiment did include increasing the number of jobs you would get for the building, so a research lab would provide 3 jobs instead of 2.

City District Jobs from Buildings
At the same time, we also tried a version where buildings applied jobs to city districts instead of providing jobs by themselves. One upside would be that you’d need less micromanagement to get the jobs, but the downside is that it would also be quite a large upswing in new jobs whenever you built a city district. In the end, it felt like you had less control and understanding of what a planet was specializing in.

Summary
Although these experiments were interesting, they didn’t end up quite where we wanted to, so they never became more than just experiments. We did learn some interesting things though, which we will keep in mind for the future. The industrial districts are still something I want to keep looking into, but we have to find a better solution.

Dev diaries will now be back on a regular schedule, but we will be looking into changing the format a bit this time around. For now, dev diaries will be coming bi-weekly, which means we will be back again in another 2 weeks with a similar topic.
 
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Have you guys thought about removing individual pop representation for large populous and instead using numerical values? a lot of the issues with performance as well as the ai happen because of the entire job system. you can keep the districts and building unlocks. it would open up the game a lot more without the job system.
 
Have you guys thought about removing individual pop representation for large populous and instead using numerical values? a lot of the issues with performance as well as the ai happen because of the entire job system. you can keep the districts and building unlocks. it would open up the game a lot more without the job system.
I think a lot of the issues with performance happen because pop-shuffle checks occur multiple times EVERY SINGLE DAY for some reason.
 
New districts and such is all fine and good. But I hope you guys are also helping out the braindead AI...…

In my current game on a 1,000 star galaxy, the lag is unbelievable! A single day takes like 10 seconds or more at 2600+ Lag has never been an issue for me before, not like this x_x

The AI:
-Doesn't upgrade it's starbases
-Doesn't build defense platforms
-Gene mods their species like a F***ing maniac (there is about 40 different types of humans in the galaxy and only 14 empires - how is this even possible? And that's only ONE species)
-Has so many unemployed pops living on their planets they don't know what to do with them

I love Stellaris, please make it work again!
 
I think a lot of the issues with performance happen because pop-shuffle checks occur multiple times EVERY SINGLE DAY for some reason.

Im guessing because people want the game to be responsive. There's usually a thread or two of confusion on the main page because the poster hasn't let the month tick by.

The problem is the population/job system has become overcomplicated. The approach to 'solving' this seems to be a battle over automation. But automation just means the system needs to make a lot of checks which in turn bog down the game.

They should get rid of jobs. All pops can just produce some amount of base resources, as they are representing large numbers of people, modified by their racial features. Buildings provide additional bonuses and effects.

Now you no longer needs to juggle pops, you no longer need to calculate optimal jobs, be worried about genemods and the like being rendered useless. You no longer need to busy with the AI trying to juggle all this for people.
 
Although I'm always pleased to read these Dev Diaries, I really dislike the idea of having consumer good and alloy production derive from the same source. It would limit the degree of specialization to which an empire could commit; e. g. you would always have to produce at least 1 alloy per 6 cg, and at least 2 cg per 3 alloys. I'd prefer if the ability to commit 100% to either resource, if so desired, be retained. The decision to swap between maximized alloy production and maximized cg production also doesn't sit well with me. This would allow for an instantaneous transition between wartime and peacetime economies that I would find both unrealistic and detrimental to strategic gameplay. Currently the primary distinction between districts and buildings seems to be that districts *produce* resources whereas buildings tend to *consume* them. Only expensive projects for the creation of densely urbanized communes (Habitats, Ring Worlds, or Ecumenopolis ) allow this rule to be broken, which seems fairly logical.
I often felt like the experience of developing a planet felt better with an Ecumenopolis rather than with a regular planet.
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, but it appears the equivalent of stating that it feels better to spend your money than it does to earn it. True, but hardly surprising. Getting access to 'consumptive' districts on regular planets would certainly feel good, but if it came at the cost of precious jobs (by way of reduced building slots) I'd be less-than-thrilled about that.

I really like the other ideas of having districts give building slots, and having buildings give jobs to districts. I wonder if a combination of both has also been tried. Each district could unlock one building slot, and buildings could add additional jobs and/or additional housing to specific district types. (The cost of a district should then obviously not be a constant, but scale based on how many districts you already have.) This could allow planets to house and employ a much greater population in the late game. Currently I often struggle with overcrowding and unemployment at that stage of the game.
 
I really dislike the idea of having consumer good and alloy production derive from the same source.

They already do: minerals. Merging the job of alloy and CG production together would make the production chain less complex, but like yourself, I dislike the loss of specialising that would bring, or the micro-managy alternative of a switch*. We already have that choice - changing foundry to factory, or factory to foundry.

*In vanilla. I'm just spending the ten minutes needed to add the decision to planets to focus Industrial districts on alloys, CGs, or no focus, in AlphaMod.

Ew, no thanks.

Agree. Jobs have made pops a lot more characterful, and added needed complexity to economic management.
 
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EDIT: Also another thing. The present system gives purpose to those "mediocre" planets you get, the ones with some space, but not too great agriculture/mining/energy production. You can still develop them into specialized, strategically important worlds
The industry districts idea would do the same: instead of having to build alloy foundries and city districts to support them, you could just build a bunch of industry districts. Much more efficient way to use useless planets.
 
I have mixed feelings about this Industrial Districts thing, but if such idea was to be implemented it would be better to have them as separate districts, one for consumer goods and one for alloys, as others have also pointed.

Another idea to consider if such a system was to be implemented would be to make science and unity buildings provide per pop values, rather than providing jobs, for example, a basic lab would provide 1 research per pop on the planet. Just a very crude idea though.

But I must agree with what others have said, that the most important issue in the game right now is to find a way to DRASTICALLY reduce late game lag.
 
Im guessing because people want the game to be responsive. There's usually a thread or two of confusion on the main page because the poster hasn't let the month tick by.

The problem is the population/job system has become overcomplicated. The approach to 'solving' this seems to be a battle over automation. But automation just means the system needs to make a lot of checks which in turn bog down the game.

They should get rid of jobs. All pops can just produce some amount of base resources, as they are representing large numbers of people, modified by their racial features. Buildings provide additional bonuses and effects.

Now you no longer needs to juggle pops, you no longer need to calculate optimal jobs, be worried about genemods and the like being rendered useless. You no longer need to busy with the AI trying to juggle all this for people.
I absolutely cannot disagree with you more, for reasons that others have discussed.
 
Have you guys thought about removing individual pop representation for large populous and instead using numerical values? a lot of the issues with performance as well as the ai happen because of the entire job system. you can keep the districts and building unlocks. it would open up the game a lot more without the job system.
Actually we don't really need THAT level of micro. Make systems an analogue of "cities" while planets would work as "building slots". More systems - more resources and population, stronger economic. Not so much place for AI to really f*ck this up like it does right now.
 
The industry districts idea would do the same: instead of having to build alloy foundries and city districts to support them, you could just build a bunch of industry districts. Much more efficient way to use useless planets.

I guess what my main beef with this idea is that a "production district" as the test was implemented is "dumbing down" the production of these tier 2 resources and may make them as easy to produce (and abundant) as energy, minerals and food; like every planet being a mini-ecumenopolis in a way. Also, what would be the point of ecumenopoli then?

The point here is having to go the extra mile to have a stable stream of Alloys and CGs. With the current system, especially in early- to mid-game, you need to juggle available housing, available buildings slots, and available pops around and that adds strategic depth. Just think about it: when a building slot frees up, you may have to decide whether you want to build a gene clinic to speed up pop growth, or should you go for a foundry, because you need the alloys to expand your fleets. Later you will usually have to streamline the production for these worlds, because the setup you have to go with early likely won't be optimal. This is a process I rather enjoy, and don't think would get from the "industrial districts everywhere" idea.
 
Ok then, I realize now I forgot amenities, so let's rebalance this:

City Districts [Heavy Housing. Amenities / Trade]
Cultural Districts [Medium Housing. Research / Unity]
Industrial District [Low Housing. Alloys / Consumer Goods]

Mineral District [ Low Housing. Minerals]
Agricultural District [Low Housing. Food]
Energy District [ Low Housing. Energy]

6 District Types. The top three are affected by national trade policies (which way the districts tilt, possibly shift this away from national trade policy to individual planet policy?)

Then the buildings give you the "+5% mineral worker output per artisan" job / 2 job slots.
 
I'm not sure research labs, alloy foundries or consumer industry building art adds much. Granted there is always the option to keep those structures and either making them limited in how many a world can have or have some sort of planetary feature that allows for them to be built.
I don't think it adds anything, especially as you could just use the same art for the districts.

Not over the summer, no. Most programmers were away. AI and performance are two constantly ongoing challenges.
If I'm reading this right, the people in charge of game design and specifying the game systems are not the same people who implement those computationally expensive systems. It therefore seems bizarre to implement a system like the new economy with a stated game design goal of reducing performance and improving the AI.
Honestly, I can't see any way to prevent that being cheesed to open up as many building slots as possible early on. You'd be able to basically map out an entire planet's worth of production as quickly as you can build cities, which just front loads a lot of the work so that you never have to look back at the planet again. Not idea from a core gameplay loop perspective.
This is a strategy game, nominally about interacting with other entities on a galactic stage. I am wholely uninterested by a core gameplay loop which doesn't involve those interactions. If the core gameplay loop is managing your own empire, what's the point of putting the other entites there to clog up computational resources?
 
I'm pretty new to the game so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but it seems this whole "districts are more satisfying than buildings" thing is pretty much a matter of housing. When I build a building, I know that I'm also going to have to build a city district, or godforbid a housing building, and it just means you're waiting longer for things to be running optimally on that planet. There's something far more satisfying of just knowing that with this one click, you're going to have those pops employed and housed, and don't need to think about it anymore. I definitely like the idea of these industrial districts (splitting them into CG districts and alloy districts seems the way to go though). In the current game, if you make a forge world you're specializing the planet to focus on alloys, by telling your pops to do alloy jobs, but functionally that just boils down to building city districts instead of the base production ones. You're already in effect specializing districts to do industrial jobs, there's just a pointless extra step involved. So what's the real difference between building a district to support a building to make a resource vs just building a district to make a resource? The answer is just more wasted time. A shift away from housing micromanagement seems like a step in the right direction.

A half-measure if you want to preserve the current system more would be to just add a couple housing jobs to every forge and civilian industries.
 
One thing I've long wanted is for Strategic Resources to be harvested by districts instead of buildings. While manufacturing them from a building makes perfect sense, harvesting resources from natural deposits should be district-based, representing the large amount of land that must be set aside for such things. Imagine an entire desert dotted with mote harvesting traps, or a vast series of pipes drawing gases from an entire swampy region into a network of refineries.
 
the industrial district sure looks nice... and I would say a scientific district as well.. on those, mayhaps buildings would spetialize them like the ones for mineral / energy / food, adding a bonus, a strong leader job.. maybe some choice to spetialize the thing: mayhaps a building increase one kind of science only instead of all 3, or for industry, further increase X, adding to a planetary decision...

In the end, yes, these experiments sound both fun and enlightening.. something to consider / learn from before working full time on the Next Big Thing (tm)... so, keep at it

..and consider a +1 on the extra district experiment ^.^ ( maybe consider their build limit mirror their demand, with industry counting vs mining.. science vs energy.. hmm... leisure vs food? having parks and natural reserves instead of agricultural fields and domes? )
 
Different approaches to empire types would be fun, as is every type of empire can only function/act within the confines of every other empire type, and no being an exterminator or devouring swarm doesn't really change this(enough).

what about playing as something like a leviathan, ignoring borders and attacking at will, there are ways, it's outside of the current Stellaris box, but surely there are ways.

what about an empire that acts like the Yuuzhan Vong from the Star Wars universe, invading from outside of the galaxy, maybe it could work like the L-Cluster, you have no contact until the gates are open. or something similar to the flood from Halo that would infect worlds( not necessarily invading and gaining patches of galaxy( don't tell me there is no way..) there are many ways to have an empire, but as it is, I've had the cake, i want new cake.
 
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