Stellaris Dev Diary #159 - Galactic Community

[DrNukeLear]

I wonder if we can have resolutions to force wars to end? Or wars to earn favours? Or resolutions to grant casus belli?

 

[SeekingEtermity]

I wonder if we can have resolutions to force wars to end? Or wars to earn favours? Or resolutions to grant casus belli?

Pretty sure there will be a resolution that makes "in breach of galactic law" a CB. I don't expect there'll be one that just says "You can now attack that guy", but, you could totally (try to) pass a law that will only hit one empire...

 

[Monturiol]

Pretty sure there will be a resolution that makes "in breach of galactic law" a CB.

What would be the point?
Anyone who's not a Pacifist can already DoW whoever they want, whenever they want.
Why have some sort of intricate Galactic Community CB when Conquest / Humiliate already exists?

Stellaris isn't like CK2, where scheming your way to the correct CB is half the game.
In space you've already got all the CBs you could ever want.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

What would be the point?
Anyone who's not a Pacifist can already DoW whoever they want, whenever they want.
Why have some sort of intricate Galactic Community CB when Conquest / Humiliate already exists?

Stellaris isn't like CK2, where scheming your way to the correct CB is half the game.
In space you've already got all the CBs you could ever want.

Have you considered that might change with a diplomacy-focused update?

 

[Monturiol]

Have you considered that might change with a diplomacy-focused update?

No.

Everything we've seen so far is tacked-on weakesauce.
Federations get 5 different cosmetic skins that don't really do anything different.
Your score gets rolled into a Galactic Community weight so you can pass resolutions that don't really do anything different.

From both the extant previews, and from prior knowledge of the hackneyed changes that have come with previous updates, it would be unreasonable for anyone to predict imminent positive change at this point.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

No.

Everything we've seen so far is tacked-on weakesauce.
Federations get 5 different cosmetic skins that don't really do anything different.
Your score gets rolled into a Galactic Community weight so you can pass resolutions that don't really do anything different.

From both the extant previews, and from prior knowledge of the hackneyed changes that have come with previous updates, it would be unreasonable for anyone to predict imminent positive change at this point.

I'm not inclined to find your perspective very persuasive considering you're writing off some genuinely interesting mechanics as "doing nothing".

 

[Lord Asa]

What would be the point?
Anyone who's not a Pacifist can already DoW whoever they want, whenever they want.
Why have some sort of intricate Galactic Community CB when Conquest / Humiliate already exists?

Stellaris isn't like CK2, where scheming your way to the correct CB is half the game.
In space you've already got all the CBs you could ever want.

I'd imagine there would be a galactic law/resolution that would make it difficult to attack others on a whim for different government types, considering that even government opposites can be within the same community. If anything sanctions and various other consequences could form if attacking unprovoked. Maybe in order to declare a war of ideals is to have a resolution passed or have majority in favor of forcing another empire to adopt new governing ethics to avoid various political repercussions.

 

[methegrate]

I'm not inclined to find your perspective very persuasive considering you're writing off some genuinely interesting mechanics as "doing nothing".

I'm very interested in the federation changes, but I'll admit that I'm holding my opinion too. The diplomacy update interests me much more than the federation mechanics or a galactic union.

Both of those absolutely seem like very cool mechanics, but they're also Big Ideas. They're the end goal of diplomacy. I'd like to know what the bread and butter of diplomacy will look like. When we're not creating grand federations and passing galactic laws, what options will we have to manage tensions with another empire or create trade relationships?

It's sort of like megastructures. They're cool things to have, but they're end goals. They aren't the game they you play. They're what you get for playing it well.

I feel like this is why the middle game (the majority of playtime) still struggles so much. Each update has tended to add big, cool new things, but they're often big things that you can accomplish by the end of the game. Megastructures, titans, gateway networks, etc. are all great, but you spend a really long time waiting for them. I get the impression that the cool parts of Federations and the Galactic Union will be the same way. That sounds great by the late game, when empires are fighting over laws and your federation has expanded and leveled up to have lots of political infighting. Absolutely, put all that in.

But what about when you're not in a federation? Or when the galactic union isn't doing much? Or when you're trying to just manage issues of war and peace with your neighbors? That's the part I'm most interested in because that's still going to be the majority of the actual gameplay.

 

[Verx90]

Pretty sure there will be a resolution that makes "in breach of galactic law" a CB. I don't expect there'll be one that just says "You can now attack that guy", but, you could totally (try to) pass a law that will only hit one empire...

i think GC will not give CB by resolution , exept the one that will give CB against breacher of the GC laws .

but there will be vote to brand someone external of the GC as a treath to the galaxy ( that would give a CB that can invite evry member of the GC to a war), or a emergency vote to join a defensive war of someone part of the GC against a galatic treath ( someone that was already branded as a such) .

we will see i guess .

 

[Methone]

I'm very interested in the federation changes, but I'll admit that I'm holding my opinion too. The diplomacy update interests me much more than the federation mechanics or a galactic union.

Both of those absolutely seem like very cool mechanics, but they're also Big Ideas. They're the end goal of diplomacy. I'd like to know what the bread and butter of diplomacy will look like. When we're not creating grand federations and passing galactic laws, what options will we have to manage tensions with another empire or create trade relationships?

It's sort of like megastructures. They're cool things to have, but they're end goals. They aren't the game they you play. They're what you get for playing it well.

I feel like this is why the middle game (the majority of playtime) still struggles so much. Each update has tended to add big, cool new things, but they're often big things that you can accomplish by the end of the game. Megastructures, titans, gateway networks, etc. are all great, but you spend a really long time waiting for them. I get the impression that the cool parts of Federations and the Galactic Union will be the same way. That sounds great by the late game, when empires are fighting over laws and your federation has expanded and leveled up to have lots of political infighting. Absolutely, put all that in.

But what about when you're not in a federation? Or when the galactic union isn't doing much? Or when you're trying to just manage issues of war and peace with your neighbors? That's the part I'm most interested in because that's still going to be the majority of the actual gameplay.

Indeed. They're showing off the DLC before the Update, and that worries me, because none of this DLC stuff has a snowball's chance in hell of working without major changes to diplomacy.

Are changes to diplomacy coming? Yeah. We know that from tiny tidbits.

But are the changes enough? That's the question, and I've recently found myself pessimistic towards Paradox in that regards.

 

[Verx90]

Indeed. They're showing off the DLC before the Update, and that worries me, because none of this DLC stuff has a snowball's chance in hell of working without major changes to diplomacy.

Are changes to diplomacy coming? Yeah. We know that from tiny tidbits.

But are the changes enough? That's the question, and I've recently found myself pessimistic towards Paradox in that regards.

Paradox be like :

 

[methegrate]

Indeed. They're showing off the DLC before the Update, and that worries me, because none of this DLC stuff has a snowball's chance in hell of working without major changes to diplomacy.

Are changes to diplomacy coming? Yeah. We know that from tiny tidbits.

But are the changes enough? That's the question, and I've recently found myself pessimistic towards Paradox in that regards.

Agreed.

I feel like it's sort of like if you're playing a board game with fundamental design problems, and the designer keeps showing up with new pieces to add to the box. Yes, these new toys are very cool. Yes, it's great that you keep adding new miniatures and maps. Keep 'em coming. But what we really need is a new edition of the rulebook, because what's already here has tons of potential but just doesn't work very well yet.

Same thing here. I'm definitely all about the new federations and a galactic union. But diplomacy needs a fundamental rewrite. Before I get excited about the boxful of new toys, I'd like to know what we're doing to fix the old ones.

 

[Verx90]

SO... when we will create a council , we will access to GC fleets and army (absolutly no clones*)? and then create a secret order (absolutly not 66*) that will start a civil war and kill all important figures of the council and of the GC , and when we win, the GC will be under a single member (absolutly not an emperor*) ? ...

 

[Methone]

SO... when we will create a council , we will access to GC fleets and army (absolutly no clones*)? and then create a secret order (absolutly not 66*) that will start a civil war and kill all important figures of the council and of the GC , and when we win, the GC will be under a single member (absolutly not an emperor*) ? ...

Well they did mention that resolutions can be passed to change how many members are on the Galactic Council to. Ahem. One.

Makes you wonder why there's no achievement for making yourself that one. With any hope, there'll be an associated event with it referencing appropriately.

 

[Foefaller]

Indeed. They're showing off the DLC before the Update, and that worries me, because none of this DLC stuff has a snowball's chance in hell of working without major changes to diplomacy.

Are changes to diplomacy coming? Yeah. We know that from tiny tidbits.

But are the changes enough? That's the question, and I've recently found myself pessimistic towards Paradox in that regards.

They might not have mentioned it in the OP, but the devs have confirmed in follow-up that a good chunk of the Galactic Community is part of the free update.

Large parts of the Galactic Community will be in the free patch, with some things like Galactic Council being in the expansion.

I believe it's mentioned in the OP for the new fed types that the Galactic Union fed is part of the free update too, which I assume means perks, laws and all, since they also said the whole thing is moddable. I'm guessing that means Envoys too, since they play a part in both, even if we haven't had any direct details on what they are/do.

I'm guessing/hoping the dev diary after the next one are the Juggernaut and the new megastructure, hopefully with some update on the free update/release date.

 

[Methone]

They might not have mentioned it in the OP, but the devs have confirmed in follow-up that a good chunk of the Galactic Community is part of the free update.


I believe it's mentioned in the OP for the new fed types that the Galactic Union fed is part of the free update too, which I assume means perks, laws and all, since they also said the whole thing is moddable. I'm guessing that means Envoys too, since they play a part in both, even if we haven't had any direct details on what they are/do.

I'm guessing/hoping the dev diary after the next one are the Juggernaut and the new megastructure, hopefully with some update on the free update/release date.

I know, but that doesn't really relate to my concerns. At all.

 

[Monturiol]

Are changes to diplomacy coming? Yeah. We know that from tiny tidbits.

So tiny that I've apparently missed them entirely, do elaborate.

 

[Methone]

So tiny that I've apparently missed them entirely, do elaborate.

Well we know there's something called 'diplomatic stances'. Probably a policy; Cooperative boosts your Diplo-Power, Supremacy does something and, if the achievement is anything to go by, being Humiliated takes you out of it. We also know AI Attitudes are changing at least a bit; the picture with the Lithoid Unicorn has them as 'Suspicious', which isn't an attitude today.

The real thing I'm concerned about is how opinion will work. Today opinion polarizes; a small +10 or -10 can easily spiral into Best Friends Forever or Hate You Like a Purifier. If it remains like that, then I have serious doubts about this next update.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

Well we know there's something called 'diplomatic stances'. Probably a policy; Cooperative boosts your Diplo-Power, Supremacy does something and, if the achievement is anything to go by, being Humiliated takes you out of it. We also know AI Attitudes are changing at least a bit; the picture with the Lithoid Unicorn has them as 'Suspicious', which isn't an attitude today.

The real thing I'm concerned about is how opinion will work. Today opinion polarizes; a small +10 or -10 can easily spiral into Best Friends Forever or Hate You Like a Purifier. If it remains like that, then I have serious doubts about this next update.

One would hope, or federation and galactic politics will be a rather dull affair.

 

[methegrate]

So tiny that I've apparently missed them entirely, do elaborate.

We've seen references to things like diplomatic weight, diplomatic stances and envoys.

The hope is that these are all glimpses of a bigger diplomacy rewrite in progress. Personally, my concern is that I can't see a diplomacy system working without overhauling trade and politics at the same time. And I don't really think that's going to happen.

The biggest problem with diplomacy right now is that opinion is set in stone for the entire game. They like you or hate you mostly based on ethics and geography, and there's no good way to change that. To improve their opinion, you need to enter a treaty with them (commercial pact, defensive pact, etc.). But they won't make a treaty unless they already like you, so it's pretty much a one-way ratchet. The only other option is to spam them with gifts, and that's not any fun.

Empires need something to actively negotiate over. A trade system would create intermediate, smaller deals that empires could accept even if they disliked each other, which could build relationships over time. You may be an authoritarian jerk, but you're a jerk with crystals that I really need, that sort of thing. Include trade routes in this system and suddenly space Venice is possible, as a small empire with good placement could build the infrastructure to attract a bunch of trade routes through its space and get rich.

But that would create another one-way ratchet. You'd end up in a situation where every empire's incentive would be to make as many trade deals as possible, then just break those trade deals as necessary to declare war. We see that already with how empires spam defensive pacts and federation invitations. So you need internal politics to drive conflict, with internal factions won't always agree to play nice.

I don't think this would necessarily need to be a complex system, but it would need some depth to it. It would certainly mean revisiting how trade and factions work, and I doubt that's going to happen.