Stellaris Dev Diary #169 - Origins Q&A

[bugman]

Dude, I don't even know what it is you're trying to argue anymore. You've gone in circles so many times with your mental gymnastics.

that's not what mental gymnastics is. mental gymnastics is why a space faring species thats used to living in space stations would get 20% hab in an extra giant space station they built for themselves around a star but every random permutation of life in the galaxy will get 100% if they move in.

Habitability includes concepts such as Quality of Life.
Even if you have no Physical issues with teh environment, you can still feel discomfort. aka, your Habitability is penalized.
As usual, technological advances can help to mitigate it. Nevermind the description of those techs.

And yes, a number of actually socio-cultural aspects are coded into species traits. That is how most of the socio-cultural stuff works.
Abd such a discomfort would be nicely represented by the Habitability Penalties.

sure, so if they wanna make their ring world feel like a space station so they feel comfy, they can do that. it would be even cheaper than trying to recreate an ocean planet or something so the space squids feel comfy. agree or disagree?

Dude. Its obvious you're the only person arguing for this. If you're really that upset about it, go mod it when the DLC comes out.

thats kind of a cop out. other people liked my original posts. i just think its dumb and doesn't make any sense thematically, doesn't fit with the sci fi tropes that inspired this game (like The Culture series by Iain M. Banks where the entire civ lives on ships, habitats, and ring-world like "oribtals"), and penalizes what is an already extremely RP-y inefficient style of play assuming you dont just grab regular pops to colonize with

 

[Shadowstrike]

Kinda late question, but it occured to me: How will Determined Exterminator interact with some of the origins?

Exterminator sets the planet to Tomb, but Remnants sets it to Relic, Resource Consolidation to Machine, and Shattered Ring to Ringworld. What takes precedence here, Exterminator or the origin? What if you pick one before the other, are they still handled the same?

Kind of why I think that that three unique machine playstyles (DE, DA and RS) should become origins. You can't remove them, and they form a coherent backstory. They make more sense as origins than mechanist or syncretic evolution.

 

[Methone]

that's not what mental gymnastics is. mental gymnastics is why a space faring species thats used to living in space stations would get 20% hab in an extra giant space station they built for themselves around a star but every random permutation of life in the galaxy will get 100% if they move in.

... well, there's clearly no point talking to you. Goodbye.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

no it doesnt. a ring world is an artifical structure designed from the ground up, it is not a rock in space with a molton core with natural forces shaping the evolution of its biospheres over billions of years.

A molten core and natural evolution is irrelevant. The point is that you get a VERY different environment inside a tin can than on a ringworld. A Ringworld is basically just a VERY BIG planetary surface (maintained by tech). A Habitat... isn't. It's a much more specialized and limited environment, and adapting to live on and around those would not make you well suited to live on any planetary surface.

 

[The Founder]

sure, so if they wanna make their ring world feel like a space station so they feel comfy, they can do that. it would be even cheaper than trying to recreate an ocean planet or something so the space squids feel comfy. agree or disagree?

A molten core and natural evolution is irrelevant. The point is that you get a VERY different environment inside a tin can than on a ringworld. A Ringworld is basically just a VERY BIG planetary surface (maintained by tech). A Habitat... isn't. It's a much more specialized and limited environment, and adapting to live on and around those would not make you well suited to live on any planetary surface.

They propably really hate being able to see a sky that is so far up. In their sations, the "sky" was only ever a handfull of Kilometers away. Before the deadly outside began.

Kind of why I think that that three unique machine playstyles (DE, DA and RS) should become origins. You can't remove them, and they form a coherent backstory. They make more sense as origins than mechanist or syncretic evolution.

Thematically it would fit. Assimilators and Servitors both have a special "Start Planet" setup.

But afiak they decided against it, to not lock you out of certain origins. Behavitoral Civics were clearly kept as Civics.

Mechanist is not nearly as big a behavior changer. You got Robots earlier and start with some and production for them. Beyond that you would use Robots not any more or less then every other Materialist.

 

[The Founder]

Wait a second. Are Void Dwellers Space Dwarves?

I notice some similarities:
- build artificial homes (caves, habitats)
- in otherwise completely hostile environment (rock, vacuum)
- might dislike open skies, prefering to be able to see the ceiling (of the cave/habitat)
- do not like living outside their prefered habitat

I guess people kinda asumed Dwarves had to go below ground. But actually Void Dwellers might be a closer fit after all.

 

[Shadowstrike]

Thematically it would fit. Assimilators and Servitors both have a special "Start Planet" setup.

But afiak they decided against it, to not lock you out of certain origins. Behavitoral Civics were clearly kept as Civics.

Mechanist is not nearly as big a behavior changer. You got Robots earlier and start with some and production for them. Beyond that you would use Robots not any more or less then every other Materialist.

So here's my issue with this: Mechanist and Syncretic Evolution are probably less unique than any of the three special machine empire variants. If the goal was to allow you to combine those traits with other origins (i.e. Servitors that start as a FE Scion!), then the same logic should also apply to Mechanist and Syncretic Evolution. Why can't I have a syncretic species and start life-seeded, for instance?

 

[Methone]

Why can't I have a syncretic species and start life-seeded, for instance?

The problem is that some of the Origins are in a weird place, where some describe just how your people came to be, while others are your history.

You'd think that nothing would prevent two species from evolving on a Gaia world together, or for people with a dormant Gateway to be mechanists. But with the current systems, no can do.

 

[Shadowstrike]

I guess I just want to see some consistency. Either all non-removeable civics become origins (since the idea is that they form a backstory that cannot be changed), or mechanist/syncretic evolution go back to being civics instead of origins (so that origins reflects something about your nation came to be)

 

[Vladisi]

I guess I just want to see some consistency. Either all non-removeable civics become origins (since the idea is that they form a backstory that cannot be changed), or mechanist/syncretic evolution go back to being civics instead of origins (so that origins reflects something about your nation came to be)

The thing is, origins generally only describe the empire's original position, which can be changed in the long run. The serviles can be lost along the way, mechanists can lose materialism and dismantle their robots, starting planet eventually stops mattering, scions may eventually conquer their liege, federations may be dispersed, calamitous lithoids don't even have to use their special ability. The only origin that truly matters is the Tree of Life, as its effects are forever unavoidable and are actually significant to some extent.

On the other hand, the three special machine civics and genocidal ones change your playstile significantly, affect how you do diplomacy and even what kind of greeting you use, and they are in affect throughout the whole game (except for possibly Purifiers, but that's for the sake of balance and consistency with the other two genocidal civics). They are greatly more significant than origins.

 

[The Founder]

So here's my issue with this: Mechanist and Syncretic Evolution are probably less unique than any of the three special machine empire variants. If the goal was to allow you to combine those traits with other origins (i.e. Servitors that start as a FE Scion!), then the same logic should also apply to Mechanist and Syncretic Evolution. Why can't I have a syncretic species and start life-seeded, for instance?

I guess I just want to see some consistency. Either all non-removeable civics become origins (since the idea is that they form a backstory that cannot be changed), or mechanist/syncretic evolution go back to being civics instead of origins (so that origins reflects something about your nation came to be)

Perhaps this helps thinking about it:
Origins is where your species came from.
Ethics and Civics is where they are going. What your gameplan is.

The Origin does not affect your actions nearly as much as your civics and ethics. You do not pick mechanist when your plan does not involve building robots. Your path of building robots? That was set the moment you decided to pick materialist.
Meanwhile your civic includes stuff like Fanatic Purifier, Inward Prefection, Driven Assimilator. The most severe gameplan changers/definers there are. Even Police State or Citizen service will ideally at least affect your building plan.

Origins are intentionally left open ended. You come fro ma Gaia world and you might:
- decide all non Gaia life is inferior and needs to be opressed or wiped out
- want to colonize the universe, so the only way is to go full robots
- decide you are the chose people, desitined to rule by the gods (Fanatic Spiritualist/Xenophobe)

With Synchretic Evolution, the first guess would be "Xenophobe Slavery". But there are plenty of possible gameplans.
Even mere mechanist has several gameplans: Synthethic Ascension, Free Synths, Opressed AI, never dabbling into AI.

 

[Nostalgium]

Can you change your origins through events?
No, that would involve timeline alterations and the potential destruction of the space-time continuum.

WHAT WAS SHALL BE

 

[Shadowstrike]

This would only make sense if you could later add DE/DA/RS as the third civic later in the game. Granted, that would open up some interesting storytelling possibilities: the machines that started killing/assimilating/pampering, or an organic society that is killed off by their machines/assimilated by their machines/allows the machines to take over while they become biotrophies.

 

[Vernichtere]

This would only make sense if you could later add DE/DA/RS as the third civic later in the game. Granted, that would open up some interesting storytelling possibilities: the machines that started killing/assimilating/pampering, or an organic society that is killed off by their machines/assimilated by their machines/allows the machines to take over while they become biotrophies.

Games are also about interesting choices. And you need to pay for your choice. I would also prefer to see around 14 defferent tradition trees, so you are forced to choose.

 

[CrazyJ]

to be honest, the machine empire special civics being non-removable never made much sense to me from a logical perspective. Any computer can be reprogrammed, even if that it could be said that the de/rs/da were core directives and specifically designed not to be changed, it just doesn't make sense that there is a part of the machine intelligence's core code that the ME itself cannot change, look at the Cybrex, they changed from genocidal maniacs to a pacifist ai that hid itself away and eventually may help defeat the contingency. the only possibly reasonable answer is that those civics are such a part of the ai that it would never even want to change it. those civics being irremovable makes perfect sense from a balance and game play perspective since it would be a nightmare to swap from being a regular machine empire to being rogue servitor if you were using organic slaves, or from a da to a regular me since you would lose all resource production from your cyborg, the swap from a regular me to de or vice versa would probably be mostly painless but it would still cause issues. but never the less those civics being irremovable still makes very little sense from a lore perspective

 

[bugman]

A molten core and natural evolution is irrelevant. The point is that you get a VERY different environment inside a tin can than on a ringworld. A Ringworld is basically just a VERY BIG planetary surface (maintained by tech). A Habitat... isn't. It's a much more specialized and limited environment, and adapting to live on and around those would not make you well suited to live on any planetary surface.

beings evolved for less limited environments should get the hab malus when they move to a "limited" tbh. But whatever, if they wanna make their ring world less like a planetary surface and more like a giant space station that's their choice , maybe like @The Founder suggested they're agaraphobic and need to make the "sky" lower or put up a view screen or just stay inside, thats fine. Before you say "buT thats not a ring world it has to be like a terrestrial planet!" who says? What do you imagine Machine Intelligence ring worlds look like? Would they bother to put jungles and glaciers on their ring world or would it look like something the Borg would make? Even Gestalt Driven Exterminators can make ring worlds in this game, do you think they design nice scenery for any biologics that come visit?

 

[The Founder]

. the only possibly reasonable answer is that those civics are such a part of the ai that it would never even want to change it.

This is a funny thing of real life AI:
We really want/need to be able to hardcode some stuff (like do not murder or take control of humanity) like that.
Indeed we want to hardcode it even harder: Subagent Safety is among the "Concrete Problems of AI Safety". In part because the AI might create it's own next itteration. We do not just want the AI to not change it in itself, but that none of it's future version has even a iota less.

beings evolved for less limited environments should get the hab malus when they move to a "limited" tbh.

They actually do.
A while ago Habitat Habitability was dropped from 100% to 80%.
Just by this time you usually got +20% from tech, so you might not notice it.

Edit: Correction, it is even only 70% Habitatbility.

pc_habitat = {
    habitat = yes
    entity = "orbital_habitat"
    icon_frame = 22
    entity_scale = 1.0
    enable_tilt = no
    fixed_entity_scale = yes
    place_entity_on_planet_plane = no
    entity_face_object = no #disable rotation towards sun or planet we orbit around
    atmosphere_color         = hsv { 0.0 0.0 1.0 }        #DONE
    atmosphere_intensity     = 1.0
    atmosphere_width         = 0.5
    show_city = no
    city_color_lut = "gfx/portraits/misc/colorcorrection_continental.dds"
    extra_orbit_size = 0
    extra_planet_count = 0
    chance_of_ring = 0.0
    planet_size = 6
    moon_size = 1
    colonizable = yes
#    ideal = yes
    starting_planet = no
    orbit_lines = no
    has_colonization_influence_cost = no            # applies when within own borders
   
    is_artificial_planet = yes
   
    modifier = {
        planet_colony_development_speed_mult = 2.0 # Habitats should be fast to colonize
        pop_environment_tolerance = 0.70
    }  
}

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

What do you imagine Machine Intelligence ring worlds look like?

Based on the evidence in-game, exactly the same as any other ringworld. After all, they still have 100% habitability for organics.

There aren't special ringworlds for special civs, and unless Paradox decides to make that "Machine Ringworlds" mod part of the base game, the case will remain that ringworlds are effectively a super-giant terrestrial surface with widely varying climates and biomes stretched around a star.

 

[bugman]

yeah @The Founder i know we talked about it a couple of pages back. living on a space station will be a downgrade for most pops except Void Borne and Machines who don't mind it.

Based on the evidence in-game, exactly the same as any other ringworld. After all, they still have 100% habitability for organics.

There aren't special ringworlds for special civs, and unless Paradox decides to make that "Machine Ringworlds" mod part of the base game, the case will remain that ringworlds are effectively a super-giant terrestrial surface with widely varying climates and biomes stretched around a star.

Not only widely varying cilmates and biomes but climates and biomes ideally suited to the perfect match of the organics homeworld. if you start as Human other continental type planets (without bonuses) will give you max 80% hab, but on a ring world you get 100% as you said, so there's technological processes far and beyond just making the 9 planet types on that homeworld. the Void Borne species also have a "homeworld" ideal type with its own 'climate' and 'biomes' even if its simpler than other ring world sections. if you have the tech to do the former you can do the latter. there's no reason a ring world can't be customized to be comfy for Void Borne just because its "terrestrial". It would be other species that would have trouble living in those sections, as they would in habitats. Giving the Void Borne the exact same -80% hab debuff on a ring world section customized for them as they would a random regular planet makes no sense, anyway you spin it, no pun intended

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

the Void Borne species also have a "homeworld" ideal type with its own 'climate' and 'biomes' even if its simpler than other ring world sections. if you have the tech to do the former you can do the latter.

Your best suggestion was "they could live indoors", which, again, is already represented by a habitability malus. Continental aliens living on a Desert world are "living indoors" as much as possible, that's why they grow slower and need more consumer goods/amenities/housing.

You CANNOT replicate a space-based habitat the size of a small moon on a ringworld surface.