Stellaris Dev Diary #229 - Aquatics Species Pack

[Aeroclub]

I love the decision to make Aquatic trait optional for everyone. New origins excite me very much as well.

It's actually not the fish-looking species, but aquatic everyone else that I'm looking forward to in this expansion. Would you kindly imagine how well would it work with humanois, robots, necroids?

 

[Ketrai]

Musing on the cost/benefits of the different new perks added. What about hive minds?

Anglers seems like a great pick for them, but from what I can tell only confirmed for megacorps to have it as well?

Hydrocentric won't really do anything for a hivemind with access to hive worlds. Will there be aquatic themed hive worlds?

 

[hart30]

Musing on the cost/benefits of the different new perks added. What about hive minds?

Anglers seems like a great pick for them, but from what I can tell only confirmed for megacorps to have it as well?

Hydrocentric won't really do anything for a hivemind with access to hive worlds. Will there be aquatic themed hive worlds?

Anglers make no sense for hiveminds. They produce consumer goods and trade value. For both hives have no use.

 

[MadCow94]

I sort of doubt that modders will get there. I think that tying an effect or a background to a specific trait might not be as trivial as people seem to assume.

It's actually pretty trivial. My personal mod I gave the lithoid resource traits and spread them out a bit. Plantoids can produce rare gasses representing plant pheromones and such, fungoids can "produce" motes because their bodies process materials in their bodies that can go BOOM if done right, and Molluscs can produce rare crystals in their cheek pouches or whatever. It took under 10 minutes and works like a champ.

I thought of given the radiotropic trait to arthropods, but only if they had "Survivor" and decided that wasn't worth it to me.

Edit: Also, some of the older (and less older) traits and species need a balance pass. I never play lithoids because I feel like +50% habitability is an I-Win-Button. And before anyone says anything, remember that even the Appalachian Mountains, which predate anything living on dry land, eventually lost the battle to water, oxygen, and other aspects of nature. If you have a salt-based lithoid, 1) best margaritas in the galaxy and 2) they'd be terrified of ocean and tropical works (and probably arctic, too).

 

[Peko?]

It's actually pretty trivial. My personal mod I gave the lithoid resource traits and spread them out a bit. Plantoids can produce rare gasses representing plant pheromones and such, fungoids can "produce" motes because their bodies process materials in their bodies that can go BOOM if done right, and Molluscs can produce rare crystals in their cheek pouches or whatever. It took under 10 minutes and works like a champ.

To clarify I was talking about graphics. Such as changing the planetary background or adding an underwater effect to the diplomacy screen.

 

[Lord Valdyr]

Like I say, I'm not convinced that they're ideally suited to being aquatic, but I'm not going to object too hard. They on't exactly work for me, but they might work well for other people.

As I mentioned earlier, molluscs make up 23% of all oceanic species on earth, which makes them the vast majority of underwater/deep sea creatures.
Like, their entire bodyform is built to live underwater. Sure, there are a couple species that crawled up on land and have stuck around, but the majority of them are ocean-dwelling.

This is kinda like saying "I don't think birds are ideally suited to flight". Sure, penguins and kiwis can't fly, but it doesn't make your generalized statement accurate.

 

[Orphalesion]

I never play lithoids because I feel like +50% habitability is an I-Win-Button.

That trait is why I eventually ended up switching off the Lithoids in most of my games... It's no fun building up a multi-species empire and then that one Lithoid species in the galaxy ends up swamping all the others :-/

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

As I mentioned earlier, molluscs make up 23% of all oceanic species on earth, which makes them the vast majority of underwater/deep sea creatures.
Like, their entire bodyform is built to live underwater. Sure, there are a couple species that crawled up on land and have stuck around, but the majority of them are ocean-dwelling.

This is kinda like saying "I don't think birds are ideally suited to flight". Sure, penguins and kiwis can't fly, but it doesn't make your generalized statement accurate.

Now you're conflating "I'm not sure that specific snail looks suitable for an aquatic snail" with "I don't think molluscs should be able to be aquatic".

That last is not what I'm saying at all - and even with the first it's an aesthetic and personal judgement that **two** specific portraits don't look quite right for the aquatic form, but also note I said I didn't care too much.

 

[TheDungen]

That trait is why I eventually ended up switching off the Lithoids in most of my games... It's no fun building up a multi-species empire and then that one Lithoid species in the galaxy ends up swamping all the others :-/

Yeah I can second that, it feels like 100 years into any game all species have been replaced by lithoids. Since they can grow on all planets they spread like a virus through the migration treaties.

 

[Beetle-Bottle]

So will the Aquatics Species Pack, eventually come out for Console?

 

[Critical Ethics]

Now you're conflating "I'm not sure that specific snail looks suitable for an aquatic snail" with "I don't think molluscs should be able to be aquatic".

That last is not what I'm saying at all - and even with the first it's an aesthetic and personal judgement that **two** specific portraits don't look quite right for the aquatic form, but also note I said I didn't care too much.

Well we've four and a bit options:
1) AI generated aquatics are not limited to particular portraits groups
2) AI generated aquatics are limited to or considerably more likely to use the aquatic portrait group
3) AI generated aquatics are limited to or considerably more likely to use portrait groups where the majority of members look sufficiently aquatic, like molluscoids
4) Someone manually goes through every single portrait to determine if they personally consider them to look sufficiently aquatic or not and then either implements some form of tagging system or creates an is_AI_aquatic_permitted (or is_AI_aquatic_forbidden) scripted trigger
5) number 4 but a weighted list instead.

5 is probably the ideal while understanding that it's a lot of work and also people will get Very Mad Online if their personal pet peeve portrait doesn't match their expectations in the rankings

 

[DeanTheDull]

Anglers make no sense for hiveminds. They produce consumer goods and trade value. For both hives have no use.

That's pearl divers, not anglers. The Angler job just produces more food than a farmer, and in the case of Hydroponic buildings it's unclear if that's a 1-and-1 job mix or 2 anglers. Further, while trade is wasted for hive minds, CG do have value in that they can be sold for energy or traded for diplomatic favors or bribes, which may or may not be cost-efficient.

But really, the point is that if there was a hivemind equivalent, there could naturally be an adaptation. Industrial districts differ between hive-minds and non-gestalts, and there's no obvious reason that Angler-farm districts couldn't alter as well. Whether it's by giving 2 anglers in the way Industrial districts default to 2 alloy workers, or changing the pearl-diver job to a more gestalt-friendly equivalent (Amenities? Energy?).

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Ocean Paradise Origin
The ultimate watery start, Ocean Paradise allows you to start on a chonky size 30 planet filled with a plentiful bounty of resources. When combined with the Aquatics Species Trait, and the Hydrocentric Ascension Perk, the Ocean Paradise origin gives significant advantages to starting with an Aquatic species. You will want to keep your friends close, and your anemones closer.

You will also start in a nebula and with ice asteroids in your home system.

Where there is water, there may be life. Where there is lots of water, there may be lots of life.​

So, compared to Life-Seeded you get all the benefits of Gaia (even more so for aquatic species), an even larger planet, but no rare resources, and no Gaia habitability hampering your expansion? We're back on "origins aren't menat to be balanced" route, then?

 

[Critical Ethics]

That's pearl divers, not anglers. The Angler job just produces more food than a farmer, and in the case of Hydroponic buildings it's unclear if that's a 1-and-1 job mix or 2 anglers. Further, while trade is wasted for hive minds, CG do have value in that they can be sold for energy or traded for diplomatic favors or bribes, which may or may not be cost-efficient.

But really, the point is that if there was a hivemind equivalent, there could naturally be an adaptation. Industrial districts differ between hive-minds and non-gestalts, and there's no obvious reason that Angler-farm districts couldn't alter as well. Whether it's by giving 2 anglers in the way Industrial districts default to 2 alloy workers, or changing the pearl-diver job to a more gestalt-friendly equivalent (Amenities? Energy?).

From a flavour point of view having two anglers per district doesn't really work because the ocean is not actually a source of infinite free food. Overfishing leads to extinctions and ecological devastation, which leads to reduced fish stocks, which leads to less fish caught anyway (and also leads to other, considerably more important, issues like the sea turning toxic and the planet dying). So the angler job being more productive on a per-pop basis but producing less food per district makes a lot of sense, but just pulling more and more fish out of the sea not so much. A pearl diver alternate could work though.

I do really like the idea of a hive mind that just really likes fishing.

 

[DeanTheDull]

From a flavour point of view having two anglers per district doesn't really work because the ocean is not actually a source of infinite free food. Overfishing leads to extinctions and ecological devastation, which leads to reduced fish stocks, which leads to less fish caught anyway (and also leads to other, considerably more important, issues like the sea turning toxic and the planet dying). So the angler job being more productive on a per-pop basis but producing less food per district makes a lot of sense, but just pulling more and more fish out of the sea not so much. A pearl diver alternate could work though.

Oh, I agree. I'm still interested in how hydroponic buildings will work, though- does the artificial nature justify two anglers, or would reasons (and balance) justify the other?

I do really like the idea of a hive mind that just really likes fishing.

Now, what would be the best trade substitute?

Honestly, I think the pearl fisher could keep the CG and be a reasonably decent Gestalt choice if the trade had a substitute. It'd be, if not ideal, implicitly useful for certain builds, especially if the trade was replaced with amenities.

For hive-minds, a pearl-diver equivalent that gives CG and amenities would be pop maintenance (covering the amenity upkeep of the drones, but also a trade good/sub-par energy substitute. Selling CG for energy would be a trade that you've little reason not to set up, but it'd also be a way for a high-value trade relationship with organics. CG are worth more for the resources you'd actually like to trade, or you could let it coast for the diplomatic favors in a more diplomacy-oriented hive build.

For the Robots, this would be irrelevant for most, but an excellent/interesting fit for Rogue Servitors. CG for your pampered bio-tropies, food to feed them, and an efficiency bonus that keeps the yields climbing throughout the game.

 

[DeanTheDull]

So, compared to Life-Seeded you get all the benefits of Gaia (even more so for aquatic species), an even larger planet, but no rare resources, and no Gaia habitability hampering your expansion? We're back on "origins aren't menat to be balanced" route, then?

Gaia-world is mechanically a military rush-build, and it remains better at that than Aquatics if you build towards that, especially with Hive-minds. Gaia worlds have two key early-game advantages over Aquatics- pop growth 10% and specialist job output 10%- that give it an edge in the first 30-ish years.

This is most useful for Hive-minds, who can make the most of the Gaia world and are affected the least by 0% habitability penalties. Much of the Hive's early-game economy comes starbases, mitigating the need for colonies for food/energy production. Pop-assembly sidesteps the 0 habitability of the planets, and those pops can work jobs that provide flat gains regardless of stability (such as coordinator jobs for admin sprawl and amenities, or soldiers for fleet cap)- or just let the generated pops migrate back to the Gaia world for another superior specialist. And, of course, two-alloy worker industrial districts that themselves are getting a 10% buff, meaning each industrial district is providing 6.6 alloys a district rather than the normal empire's 3.

Pair it with subsumed will (0 influence cost to move assembled pops back to the Gaia) and Catalytic processor, and you can get a Tall snowball balling fast. Livestock provide the food for the catlytic converters, spread them on worlds where Amenities are provided by pop-assembled coordiantors who provide the admin cap, and get a dominant position in mineral/energy tributaries that let you hyper-focus your gaia on science and alloys.


Certainly not meta, but easily a better 30-year war monger than normal aquatics, who'd be a couple techs and hundreds or thousands of alloys behind.

 

[RossN]

Very excited about this! I've a soft spot for sea-dwelling civilisations.

I hope there is a nice variety of portraits - Arthropoids and Molluscoids are already quite well served but I'd love to see some marine reptiles (hyper evolved plesiosaurs!) and of course fish.

 

[Primarch Victus]

What we need next: a Dinosauroid Species Pack that let me play the game like an dino-like version of the Asgard of the Stargate franchise and an Eldritch Species Pack full of Lovecraftian abominations with its own lovecraftian-themed cities, names and ships.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

Gaia-world is mechanically a military rush-build, and it remains better at that than Aquatics if you build towards that, especially with Hive-minds. Gaia worlds have two key early-game advantages over Aquatics- pop growth 10% and specialist job output 10%- that give it an edge in the first 30-ish years.

Actually, "advantage" is questionable, since bonus to output and pop growth aren't specified:

Most likely, it's the same 10% as is the case with pretty much everything.

In addition aquatics get (further amplified by ascension perk):

Extra hull is bound to compensate alloy production aquatics might fall behind in (but, again: this is unlikely the case).

Way I see it: only advantage Gaia has is rare resources. Five districts and habitability is hardly a fair trade for that, especially if you plan on early military expansion.

 

[Millbot]

Given that Ocean Paradise builds are likely to want to go with Hydrocentric as one of their perks. An every increasing world, assuming there isn't a cap, means that they'll have access to more industrial districts given that those are never capped IIRC.

The bottlenecks I see this build running into is science and unity output because we don't have districts on ocean worlds that can produce either. If you're doing one world challenge, you aren't going to get any special features to help on that end either. Assuming one isn't doing a one system challenge, I don't think strategic resources will be an issue because you aren't going to have many buildings using those and it might be easy enough to get with trade. Energy is likely to be another issue though because districts are going to need it, you probably build robots, even though you likely don't do synthetic ascension. Granted, maybe not if you go bio ascension. I kind of suspect the extra districts you get from expanding oceans aren't going to ever increase you energy districts, but might be wrong here (at best it might be RNG).

Depending on civics choices, minerals might be an issue. Again, like generator districts, kind of thinking you get what you get at the start and no more on that world. Not unless, they add an RNG factor that may randomly up your district count for raw resource output. Honestly, I suspect they rather you take the angler civic to have unlimited food districts and then pair that with catalytic processing so that alloy production doesn't need minerals.

I will say though, one thing that angler's civic stresses further. Is that we really need to have some sort of capital planetary decisions that let us specialize industrial districts to certain tasks. We already have a few builds where you do not want you capital world industrial districts producing both consumer goods and alloys. It's mostly that you don't want them making consumer goods and anglers civics is going to be in that spot. Like when I hit a point where my trade or pearl divers make it so that I don't want to be producing consumer goods on my capital, I should just be allowed to spend some influence to go all in on alloy production, not be forced to disable the jobs so that I don't have to deal with the mineral upkeep.