Stellaris Dev Diary #270 - Traditional Results (of Summer Experiments)

[Critical Ethics]

Completely disagree. The chaotic and dangerous nature of the Shroud is the primary appeal of Psionic ascension. Making everything "meta" is the absolute worst idea for this game. This is NOT a competitive game, it's a storytelling game where bad things happening out of your control is part of the fun. If I wanted Starcraft or Civilization I'd play those games.

I want to keep it chaotic and dangerous, but coin flips are not the only, or best, way to do chaotic and dangerous.

e: or to keep this opinion based, paying for coin flips was not an implementation of chaotic and dangerous that I found fun.

 

[Imp0815]

Redoing how gene and robo modding work was out of the scope of things @Alfray Stryke could do as part of Summer Experimentation, but it's on the "todo" list. (Though without a firm target as to "when".)

It could be a lot better.

One of the nice things about the release cadence given to us by the Custodian Initiative is that we always have the opportunity to make things better, it just needs to be prioritized appropriately.

Eugenics Wars crisis when?

 

[Abdulijubjub]

So Machine empires will get a maximum assembly speed of 31,8. 16,5 without the relic or being the emperor.

6 for capital building, 1 empire type, 1 ruler bonus Synthetic, 3 assembly plant and 1 for machine worlds = 12, 10 when not the emperor or 8 on a new world
assembly speed bonus 20% tech, 10% tradition, 15% trait, 20% civic and 100% relic = 165%

I wonder if people will complain that ME are too strong or too weak. It's always one or the other.

The 15% from the trait is multiplicative, so it's actually 17.25 assembly when not the emperor. 17.25 is actually exactly as much as the new genetic ascension (ignoring budding).

For comparison, genetic ascension will now be getting 4.5*(1+.3+.2+.1+.2+.1)+6*(1.45)=17.25 too. That's Fertile, tech, tradition, medical workers, and nutritional plenitude for growth, and Vat-Grown and medical workers with clone vat assembly (there will probably be a -10% in there as well unless you're clever with immigration to lock your fertile subspecies into reproducing, so it may actually be 16.8).

 

[theBigTurnip385]

The 15% from the trait is multiplicative, so it's actually 17.25 assembly when not the emperor. 17.25 is actually exactly as much as the new genetic ascension (ignoring budding).

For comparison, genetic ascension will now be getting 4.5*(1+.3+.2+.1+.2+.1)+6*(1.45)=17.25 too. That's Fertile, tech, tradition, medical workers, and nutritional plenitude for growth, and Vat-Grown and medical workers with clone vat assembly (there will probably be a -10% in there as well unless you're clever with immigration to lock your fertile subspecies into reproducing, so it may actually be 16.8).

And hive will beat both of them anyway

 

[Turnil]

And hive will beat both of them anyway

sure, but a hive will not get 8 energy and 4 alloys from their drones as a base production and has to pay 6 minerals for braindrones while machines only need 4 energy for their techdrones.

 

[Nazarius40000]

Back from lunch today, time to answer some more questions!



The current intention is that the negative cybernetic traits should provide points to get the positive traits, but as always not final numbers are not final and things can change due to feedback during the open beta.



No, this shifts roboticists to providing organic pop assembly. Flavour-wise, this is diverting the production lines from building robots to manufacturing cybernetic implants for your population.



No current plans, but this sounds like a great suggestion for a future Custodian update.



No.



To quote the 3.6 patch notes





Nope!



Yes, we are looking at rebalancing the bonuses and penalties for the various covenants but I can't say anything more at this time.



Nope, the cybernetic traits were inspired by robot/machine traits, but have been changed.

Spoiler

View attachment 886718

Yeah, that's something we're discussing.



A requirement of the Synthetic Age tradition is to have researched the Synthetics technology.




Currently, you can research the Synthetics tech, but robotic leaders is locked behind the tradition. I'll pay attention to feedback if this should be changed or not.



All four ascension paths are mutually exclusive.



Currently, it is a random roll for which shroud entity contacts you weighted by your ethics and other choices (as it currently is in 3.5). You'll have the option to decline of course and that means you can randomly stumble across potential covenants when exploring the Shroud (as in 3.5).



A typo no-one noticed even through I had many proof-readers. It should "Can acquire robotic leaders".



They felt too robotic for cyborgs.



Budding and Delicious can't be applied to lithoids, as they are not made of meat. Likewise, Felsic and Crystallization can only be applied to lithoids due to the aforementioned lack of meat.

Polymelic should be mutually exclusive with both Budding and Crystallization.



In order to harvest DNA from a Leviathan, you need to have researched Gene Tailoring and not have begun undertaking one of the other ascension paths.



Yes.

Spoiler: Leader Trait Rebalance

View attachment 886748

New modifiers that depend upon @Eladrin's DD next week have been redacted.

Why did the psionicist governor have +5 stability removed? I don't understand.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

The +5%/+10% Energy from jobs provided by the Latent Psionic and Psionic traits have been replaced with +5%/+10% Unity from jobs as this was more in-line with the desired focus for Psionic and particularly Spiritualist empires.

It was interesting reading your unity rework, and this in particular reminded me of what I consider one of the major psionic/spiritual issues. Namely that from a certain point, there is very little value to gaining additional unity in the early game compared to other currencies.

This is because the strongest use of unity - UNITY AMBITIONS - is gated by tech, not unity, and this issue is compounded by other factors that make focusing on unity less rewarding that it initially appears.

Not only do non-spiritualist/psionic empires following the "tech is king" approach research Ascendance Theory earlier than any spiritualist or psionic empire ever could, they can then scale up their unity production with higher tech buildings at that point to take advantage of it.

Spiritualist/Psionic empires only catch up much later in what, thematically, ought to be a strength of theirs - and much, much later if they make the mistake of focusing on unity over science in the early to mid-game in order to leverage things such as unity edicts, which is supposed to be a strength of high unity builds.

Sure, psionics/spiritualists focusing on unity will also get traditions earlier in the game, and earlier ascension perks - but traditions are generally of lower value than techs due to the many filler traditions, their cost scaling with number of traditions taken, and the value of techs in increasing resource output modifiers. Moreover, most ascension perks are also locked behind tech anyway, making this psionics/spiritualist advantage less valuable than it might otherwise seem as there are only so many of the early ascension perks that you can take for any empire before their marginal value drop like a stone.

So how about making the FINISHER to the psionic path provide ASCENSION THEORY as a guaranteed research option in addition to what it already does? This won't give the (spiritualist or otherwise) unity-focused empire rushing Psionics unity ambitions in the early game, due to the tech cost of researching this T5 tech with an early game tech base, but by the mid-game, at a considerable cost, the player could do so and get to spend his unity on something as valuable as every "tech is king" faction in the game, during the same time period of the game where tech factions would get to do so - and he'd do so through the power of the mind. Sounds like a win-win to me, thematically speaking.

Just a thought.

---

Another thought: Fewer but more efficient

It has long been part of the design philosophy, but players have never been fooled. At least not those who can count, though admittedly the differences have often been exaggerated.

Be that as it may, 20% rather than 10% ADDITIVE output modifiers is never going to come close to making up for having fewer POPs to begin with in a game that has lots and lots of ADDITIVE output modifiers. Even ignoring that the other ascension paths have their own additive output modifiers to compete with this, and even if the opportunity cost of fielding telepaths rather than other jobs in the first place is ignored.

Worse - the further the game progresses, the less valuable any individual additive output modifier becomes as the players gain more and higher modifiers, primarily through tech but also exploration.

And even worse than that, the further the game progresses, the more POP growth for the POP growth focused empires. The growth curve comes nowhere near addressing this, so long as empires keep expanding. And apart from players roleplaying hermit kingdoms, they do keep expanding.

I would dearly love to see Telepaths achieve - uniquely - a MULTIPLICATIVE resource modifier rather than additive, so you'd get (1+psionic/telepath modifiers)*(1+AllOtherModifiers) resources from jobs. Just say 20% multiplicative rather than additive for 2 telepaths, and see how that works out in testing. (Or how about 10% base for any psionic POP, with each telepath giving an additional 5% for all psionic POPs on the planet?)

THAT would be highly valuable, and scale. Psionic POPs really would be better than any non-Psionic POPs that otherwise had the same output modifiers or the +20% or whatever from their own ascension. Something that actually DID set psionic empires apart in their resource production, and differentiated them from non-psionics with their greater number of POPs and otherwise same resource modifiers.

--

A third thought - guess this one is for the custodian team, really

Despite my focus on game mechanics above (a habit of mine, as a mathematician and ex-game developer), the truth of the matter is that since I only play SP, not MP, I care a LOT more about whether ascension paths feel unique and thematic than about how competitive they are with each other. Mathematics and optimizing is what I do by instinct - having fun is a different matter.

So let me be constructive and suggest that the rework of Psionic would be even better if the game incorporated at least one simple PSI trope from TV and literature to improve their navy in ways that does NOT rely on being lucky in the shroud or reverse engineering tech - and would require minimal work.

Psionic Strike Craft - Let the PSI-Corps provide trained personnel to the navy as well as the bureaucracy. Have PSI-Corps provide a "Psionic Strike Craft" research, which grants access to a strike craft (basic, improved, advanced) with a psionic pilot that are better than the regular strike craft versions. To avoid reopening the evasion balance debacle, just have them provide a bonus to shields (say +10, +15, +20 respectively) and possibly a minor damage boost. There is no need for new graphics for strike craft - the craft are the same, it is only the crew that is different.

This could either be implemented by a separate research line (Psionic Strike Craft -> Improved Psionic Strike Craft -> Advanced Psionic Strike Craft) mirroring the normal research (and possibly working as blockers for the normal research line once you had Psionic Strike Craft to not have a completely dud tech pick) or by having just Psionic Strike Craft research, and let the weapon-components be available as the normal versions if you don't have Psionic Strike Craft tech and the Psionic if you do (if this can be implemented with current triggers).

...Yes, I know, I'm probably not going to get this.

I've been asking for this or something like it for many years now, because I consider it such a missed opportunity not to provide psionics with some ship weapon, ANY ship weapon, that does not require being lucky in the shroud or reverse-engineering, and psionic/magic/force fighter pilots have been a sci-fi trope since Star Wars - and earlier than that in literature.

Because surely, the first - or possible second - thought to arise in a psionic empire, ought to be "what are the military implications of this".

---

Finally,

Thought Enforcement is now a guaranteed research option, with the Psi-Corp tradition.

This is a great change!

This means it will never take the slot of something actually useful!

That was a cheap shot. But just look at it:

• 30 base unity upkeep - this is the most expensive edict together with the Tracking Implants, so it had better provide strong bonuses to justify its high cost
• -10% happiness - this is bad and affects all POPs in your empire; depending on world, this may reduce resource output or increase crime - or it may have no practical effect; Combined with the high cost, the rest had better be REALLY good to make up for this[/I]
• -5 crime per telepath - on those planets that have telepaths in the first place, this may help counter the downsides of the -10% happiness, or it might even exceed the downside; on those that don't it has no effect and any problems caused by the unhappiness hit will remain unanswered
• +1 encryption - this is of little value in SP unless roleplaying a spy-master; The espionage system - even with the relevant DLC - just isn't that important or valuable in the current state of the game. And Psionics already get +2 from a tradition necessary to get the finisher anyway. I find it hard to imagine that the unity opportunity cost makes anybody use it in MP for the encryption, but as I haven't played Stellaris MP for years, I guess I might be wrong on that
• +25% government ethics attraction - Look, psionics are most likely spiritualists, and government or spiritualist ethics attraction is not in short supply. And why do you even want this in the first place? For increased happiness and faction unity generation, right? Well, guess how that works out with this edict... Bottom line? There are cheaper and better ways of getting ethics attraction than a constant unity drain that makes everybody unhappy

Same goes for Tracking Implants, really, but at least that one provides -10 crime on all planets rather than linking its crime reduction to planets with telepaths. It still seems bad to me, but at least it seems marginally less bad.

I guess this is really me begging for this edict to be given a second pass one of these days, because while I am perfectly willing to accept that there might be edge cases where it is worthwhile to use as is even if I cannot think of any outside roleplaying, when I struggle to think of any situation where I would enable this edict in SP even if was free (I can certainly think of some, but with heavy qualifiers), it is likely in a bad state overall and more likely to function as a trap for new players than anything else.

 

[Archael90]

This means it will never take the slot of something actually useful!

This!

That was a cheap shot. But just look at it:

• 30 base unity upkeep - this is the most expensive edict together with the Tracking Implants, so it had better provide strong bonuses to justify its high cost
• -10% happiness - this is bad and affects all POPs in your empire; depending on world, this may reduce resource output or increase crime - or it may have no practical effect; Combined with the high cost, the rest had better be REALLY good to make up for this[/I]
• -5 crime per telepath - on those planets that have telepaths in the first place, this may help counter the downsides of the -10% happiness, or it might even exceed the downside; on those that don't it has no effect and any problems caused by the unhappiness hit will remain unanswered
• +1 encryption - this is of little value in SP unless roleplaying a spy-master; The espionage system - even with the relevant DLC - just isn't that important or valuable in the current state of the game. And Psionics already get +2 from a tradition necessary to get the finisher anyway. I find it hard to imagine that the unity opportunity cost makes anybody use it in MP for the encryption, but as I haven't played Stellaris MP for years, I guess I might be wrong on that
• +25% government ethics attraction - Look, psionics are most likely spiritualists, and government or spiritualist ethics attraction is not in short supply. And why do you even want this in the first place? For increased happiness and faction unity generation, right? Well, guess how that works out with this edict... Bottom line? There are cheaper and ways of getting ethics attraction than a constant unity drain that makes everybody unhappy

It basically gives nothing.
-5 per telepath is really nothing, unless i have heavy crimed planets. Telepaths already gives -35 crime, and there are two of them. jump from -70 to -80 is really not as big... its nothing.
+1 encryption is nothing, unless espionage will get total overhaul.
+25% government ethic attraction is nothing... I would be better by NOT applying this -10% happiness in terms of government ethic attracion.

 

[Vorpaliminal]

About how much trouble would it be for you guys to add Trading Algorithms to the game in something like a hotfix patch at this point? I know that's probably really unreasonable, but I'd really like to have trade-bots right now, cause going Synthetic as a trade empire right now is painful without a trait to replace Thrifty.

 

[jaketoms16]

Voidling Voidspawn MegaCorp... We eat, drink, and breathe commerce

 

[Lorenerd11]

I am against this, because I can't imagine gene-modding in a multicultural late game empire spawning a dozen situations to be any kind of fun.

Obviously you would only be able to run a single situation at once, just as how you can only run a single project as once right now.

 

[Turnil]

Why did the psionicist governor have +5 stability removed? I don't understand.

I agree, but it is going into beta. So they might change it.
right now it's the weakest bonus for governors compared to the other ascension paths.
I would give psionicist governors a 10% empire sprawl reduction of pops.

 

[Sutopia]

I wonder if Cyborg gain access to the 2 roboticist building like synth does, otherwise they significantly lags behind. Cyborg doesn’t have a large pop efficiency advantage due to their born traits being locked in like psionic does and not receiving trait points from the ascension.

 

[zZander56]

New modifiers that depend upon @Eladrin's DD next week have been redacted.

Those look great. The cyborg trait in particular has needed some love for a long time. Might actually be decent for Utopian Abundance builds. Cyberpunk but good end.

 

[Sutopia]

Back from lunch today, time to answer some more questions!



The current intention is that the negative cybernetic traits should provide points to get the positive traits, but as always not final numbers are not final and things can change due to feedback during the open beta.



No, this shifts roboticists to providing organic pop assembly. Flavour-wise, this is diverting the production lines from building robots to manufacturing cybernetic implants for your population.



No current plans, but this sounds like a great suggestion for a future Custodian update.



No.



To quote the 3.6 patch notes





Nope!



Yes, we are looking at rebalancing the bonuses and penalties for the various covenants but I can't say anything more at this time.



Nope, the cybernetic traits were inspired by robot/machine traits, but have been changed.

Spoiler

View attachment 886718

Yeah, that's something we're discussing.



A requirement of the Synthetic Age tradition is to have researched the Synthetics technology.




Currently, you can research the Synthetics tech, but robotic leaders is locked behind the tradition. I'll pay attention to feedback if this should be changed or not.



All four ascension paths are mutually exclusive.



Currently, it is a random roll for which shroud entity contacts you weighted by your ethics and other choices (as it currently is in 3.5). You'll have the option to decline of course and that means you can randomly stumble across potential covenants when exploring the Shroud (as in 3.5).



A typo no-one noticed even through I had many proof-readers. It should "Can acquire robotic leaders".



They felt too robotic for cyborgs.



Budding and Delicious can't be applied to lithoids, as they are not made of meat. Likewise, Felsic and Crystallization can only be applied to lithoids due to the aforementioned lack of meat.

Polymelic should be mutually exclusive with both Budding and Crystallization.



In order to harvest DNA from a Leviathan, you need to have researched Gene Tailoring and not have begun undertaking one of the other ascension paths.



Yes.

Spoiler: Leader Trait Rebalance

View attachment 886748

New modifiers that depend upon @Eladrin's DD next week have been redacted.

Lemme guess, according to pdxcon, it’s some kind of damage bypass resistance on shield and armor for psionic and synth.

 

[cryptkeeper]

They should probably just add a +Codebreaking modifier when it comes to hacking (or "hacking") a target who shares your ascension type. Robots should be great at hacking other robots (and regular empires to a lesser degree?). But not versus psychics. Psychics should get a +codebreaking buff when it comes to other psychics.

Bio maybe should get a small bonus to hacking other biological life-forms who share your "species pack", and then small bonuses with other biological groups (like lithoids, hiveminds, aquatics etc) when they reach Transgenetics at the end of their tree.

While I see where your coming from, the reason why I say cyborgs should get increased codebreaking is because they can interface with tech directly, while also being able to hide in almost any society. It's also a huge trope in cyberpunk based scifi for people with cybernetics hacking, sabotaging through direct connection or even wirelessly. I am not sure adding checks between species wouldn't just create more lag for little gameplay/theme benefit.

 

[Wendigo514]

I recently saw a video on Youtube of a much older build of Stellaris (before Trade Value was created), and saw that the Thrifty trait already existed back then.
It increased Energy output from jobs instead:
View attachment 886768
I'm guessing the idea behind Psionics was that they could read people's thoughts and strike deals more easily thanks to that? But since Trade Value wasn't a thing, they made the Psionic traits boost energy output instead. And when Trade Value was created, everyone forgot somehow? (I don't know, I wasn't playing the game around that time).

Another thing that makes me believe that is how there often seem to be some connection between spiritualism and trade in this game. The 2 most obvious signs being the "Gospel of the Masses" civic and the "Numistic Shrine" building which gives Merchant and Priest jobs.

But replacing that with unity does make sense too, I agree. This would also avoid making Psionics feel "necessary" for a trade build.


Loving the ideas exposed there in general, can't wait for the open beta!

If the APs stay as they are at the moment, The Flesh is Weak looks like the way to go for a Trade focused build, due to the ability to combine Thrifty and Trading Algorithm traits, so giving a TV bonus to Psionic doesn't seem too broken.

 

[cryptkeeper]

So how about making the FINISHER to the psionic path provide ASCENSION THEORY as a guaranteed research option in addition to what it already does?

Good feedback But why not just make it a guaranteed after you finish all the ascension trees.

 

[Ikael]

I agree that the shroud should be random, mysterious and dangerous, but the way to balance is not "sometimes is bad and sometimes is good", but rather "sometimes is bad, and sometimes is much better than the other ascensions good things". Or "it is always good" but random". Otherwise is just plain... worse.

 

[cryptkeeper]

I have a question will clone army work with cyborg modding even though they can't be genetically changed?