Stellaris Dev Diary #275 - Bless Thy Soul

[Thiend]

I don't mind cyborgs being one of the earlier ascensions, although honestly, I feel gene-modding should be unlocked a bit earlier too.

I'd kind of like some more unique features for bio-ascension so we can unlock adding negative/removing positive traits from a regular tech. It always feels like genemodding is just useless and too expensive for the tiny amount you might get out of it when you MIGHT be able to add one positive or remove one negative trait if you have every single possible non-ascension trait point. Make the current version available a little earlier, and that be something you unlock a little later.

 

[Lorenerd11]

I'd kind of like some more unique features for bio-ascension so we can unlock adding negative/removing positive traits from a regular tech.

I agree. I've suggested a while ago that some of the traits currently exclusive to bio ascension, such as Nerve-Stapled and Delicious should be simply unlocked by high-level techs.

Also, both of these traits should probably only be available to Gestalts, Authoritarians, and Xenophobes, with the explicit exclusion of Rogue Servitors.

 

[Thiend]

I agree. I've suggested a while ago that some of the traits currently exclusive to bio ascension, such as Nerve-Stapled and Delicious should be simply unlocked by high-level techs.

Also, both of these traits should probably only be available to Gestalts, Authoritarians, and Xenophobes.

I'm not even sure nerve-stapling should require advanced genemodding. If you don't mind someone's higher brain functions not working (as with nerve stapling) you could probably do that exact thing right now relatively easily. It should just also cause an enormous opinion malus with anyone who isn't at least regular authoritarian to apply that to a species...

 

[Lorenerd11]

If you don't mind someone's higher brain functions not working (as with nerve stapling) you could probably do that exact thing right now relatively easily.

This is not about in-universe difficulty of the procedure, but about gameplay balancing.

 

[Thiend]

This is not about in-universe difficulty of the procedure, but about gameplay balancing.

Fair enough then. I don't have a great picture of how good a trait it is because my bio-ascension empires usually disregard everything but growth speed and I never use it.

 

[Lorenerd11]

This to me is just further indication there needs to be more focus placed for individualistic machine empires, potentially including the ability to start as one.

As well as pops, both organic and synth-ascendant, retaining the memory of their original nation even after its destruction, and forming factions within your empire to advocate specifically for the interest of their conquered people, and potentially forming separatist movements, seeking to restore their original empire.

Which would include formerly-organic ascended synthetics retaining their individuality even if conquered by an empire with outlawed AI, and reforming their nation with regular authorities.

Also, there should be some distinction between individualist cyborgs and Driven Assimilator cyborgs; it should take some work to de-assimilate the latter from the machine consciousness, and likewise, it should take some effort for the Driven Assimilator to assimilate alien cyborgs, add their own technology to the aliens'.

Basically, make the two into separate but similar traits.

And purged pops, including Gestalt pops, should put up some greater resistance.

 

[Thiend]

Also, there should be some distinction between individualist cyborgs and Driven Assimilator cyborgs; it should take some work to de-assimilate the latter from the machine consciousness, and likewise, it should take some effort for the Driven Assimilator to assimilate alien cyborgs, add their own technology to the aliens'.

Basically, make the two into separate but similar traits.

And purged pops, including Gestalt pops, should put up some greater resistance.

I'm not sure gestalt pops need to for "makes sense" reasons - don't they actually die because of not being connected to the hive, rather than because someone killed them? In general though... Usually? Maybe activating genocidal purging spawns armies relating to the total number of them? Not sure what ratio of pops to armies (perhaps a fairly high one, but of substandard quality since they aren't actually equipped for war).

For gestalts, maybe some small portion either do the same thing or just become non-hivemind pops under the new regime and aren't automatically dying, as a representation of deviant drones that were either happy with the hive or are now happy to be free of it?

 

[Lorenerd11]

I'm not sure gestalt pops need to for "makes sense" reasons - don't they actually die because of not being connected to the hive, rather than because someone killed them?

I imagine that even without a central Hive Mind connection a Devouring Swarm's pops would still roam around and kill and consume whatever they can. Less effective that the specifically designated combat drones, but still.

 

[Thiend]

I imagine that even without a central Hive Mind connection a Devouring Swarm's pops would still roam around and kill and consume whatever they can. Less effective that the specifically designated combat drones, but still.

See I'm not sure about that. Is it a devouring swarm because all the pops are hungry (in which case they'd do devouring swarm things when disconnected) or is the impetus for devouring the hivemind itself, in which case when disconnected they (or DE pops, either way) might just... Stop doing anything when disconnected, because they have no internal will and now they have no external will either?

 

[Lorenerd11]

See I'm not sure about that. Is it a devouring swarm because all the pops are hungry (in which case they'd do devouring swarm things when disconnected) or is the impetus for devouring the hivemind itself, in which case when disconnected they (or DE pops, either way) might just... Stop doing anything when disconnected, because they have no internal will and now they have no external will either?

Well, most Devouring Swarms I've made are naturally aggressive creatures in and of themselves, blobs of flesh or expansive fungi… So it feels weird for them to just slowly sit there and slowly get purged.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Well, most Devouring Swarms I've made are naturally aggressive creatures in and of themselves, blobs of flesh or expansive fungi… So it feels weird for them to just slowly sit there and slowly get purged.

It depends entirely on how much autonomy they have. Your finger, even if it had the organs to sustain itself, would just sit there getting purged without a connection to the brain.

Though, personally I always think "Zerg" when it comes to Devouring Swarms, so I always envision feral zerglings going berserk or simply acting like predator animals rather than unresponsive bodies without a hive mind to control them. But it's easy for me to imagine a hive mind whose drones, though partially autonomous, would become catatonic if completely severed from the overriding will that controlled them their entire life.

 

[Thiend]

It depends entirely on how much autonomy they have. Your finger, even if it had the organs to sustain itself, would just sit there getting purged without a connection to the brain.

Though, personally I always think "Zerg" when it comes to Devouring Swarms, so I always envision feral zerglings going berserk or simply acting like predator animals rather than unresponsive bodies without a hive mind to control them. But it's easy for me to imagine a hive mind whose drones, though partially autonomous, would become catatonic if completely severed from the overriding will that controlled them their entire life.

Even if they theoretically had the ability to act, would they know how? Would they understand they have no connection, rather than no orders? It's not really something with an absolute answer since it doesn't exist in reality, but I'd imagine even if they had the ability it would take them longer to figure out that they 1. could and 2. should take an action than it would to starve to death/otherwise deactivate.

 

[Lorenerd11]

It depends entirely on how much autonomy they have. Your finger, even if it had the organs to sustain itself, would just sit there getting purged without a connection to the brain.

Though, personally I always think "Zerg" when it comes to Devouring Swarms, so I always envision feral zerglings going berserk or simply acting like predator animals rather than unresponsive bodies without a hive mind to control them. But it's easy for me to imagine a hive mind whose drones, though partially autonomous, would become catatonic if completely severed from the overriding will that controlled them their entire life.

Perhaps there could be a flag to check whether or not the Hive Mind was a Devouring Swarm.

If it was, the remaining drones would go berserk. If it wasn't, there could be other issues with clearing out the inert drones.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Even if they theoretically had the ability to act, would they know how? Would they understand they have no connection, rather than no orders? It's not really something with an absolute answer since it doesn't exist in reality, but I'd imagine even if they had the ability it would take them longer to figure out that they 1. could and 2. should take an action than it would to starve to death/otherwise deactivate.

My point was more that the answer wildly differs depending on what constitutes a "hive mind" for a given empire. "Hive mind" covers a huge swathe of fictional ideas, from a unifying, distributed consciousness where each drone is a fully capable individual but subsumed by the whole (Borg) to a top down hierarchy ruled by an overmind and middle manager overlords/brood queen with animal like bottom rungs (Zerg) to an emergent intelligence where every individual is incapable of surviving on its own (or at least not being intelligent) but together they make a functional mind (something like ants, where even the queen is just the reproductive organs of the colony, rather than actually commanding).

So depending on what your Hive Mind empire is supposed to represent, the answer could be any of "becomes an individual who's in shock", "goes berserk and mindlessly attacks everything nearby that isn't its own species", "acts like an aggressive animal", or "becomes completely unable to function without the context of other members of the hive" (like a single ant wandering randomly without trails to follow).

I know the Borg are represented in game as Driven Assimilators, but they're really a hive mind, and there are no mechanical drones in the Borg hivemind, I think. The mechanical ones certainly aren't the "main species". It's just that there's no direct analogue in game for a cybernetic (but organic) hive mind which directly assimilates individuals without adding the hive mind trait, so that freed drones can become functional individuals again without genetic alteration.

 

[Lorenerd11]

Fair enough then. I don't have a great picture of how good a trait it is because my bio-ascension empires usually disregard everything but growth speed and I never use it.

Nerve-stapling your slave pops, or making your livestock delicious, can be both be very strong.

 

[Lorenerd11]

I know the Borg are represented in game as Driven Assimilators, but they're really a hive mind, and there are e.g. no mechanical drones in the Borg hivemind, I think. The mechanical ones certainly aren't the "main species". It's just that there's no direct analogue in game for a cybernetic (but organic) hive mind which directly assimilates individuals without adding the hive mind trait, so that freed drones can become functional individuals again without genetic alteration.

I once text-edited an empire design to show the cyborg species portrait in the diplomatic and government screen instead of the mechanical portrait, allowing the empire to be a machine assimilator with the portrait of the cyborg species.

That said, I think it would be cool to do this the "proper way", and actually have a cybernetic Gestalt Consciousness. Thematically it would be more suited as a Machine Consciousness with organic cyborg pops as the primary species (which would primarily affect diplomacy with e.g. Determined Exterminators), but gameplay-wise it would probably be easier to Implement as a Hive Mind (since making it a Machine authority would require writing special exceptions for both Machine and organic portraits, and many of the Machine techs…)

Once we get the Cybernetic origin, I think it would be cool if we could start our Hives as cyborgs too.

I've also long wished for an assimilator hive civic, which gives us the ability to assimilate pops into the Hive from the start and a unique personality type just like Driven Assimilators, but it seems we're unlikely to ever get that.

 

[Tommi414]

View attachment 906990​

I like the new changes, but I still feel like not being able to have a spiritualist empire that venerates machines is a bit of a miss.

 

[Bl4ckSh33p]

Are holy worlds finally fixed on PC or console? I reported several times that holy world designation is broken on console. You can get unlimited holy worlds and colonize them. Or is this fixed already? Didn't play spiritualists for a while.

 

[Silesian Burd]

Either I misunderstand you or you misunderstood luxeritib or you have a misconception about the complexity of the tech chain for Genetic Ascension.
Are you really calling the tech chain for Genetics a "Low chance tech chain"?

This tech chain?
Genome Mapping (T1) -> Gene Tailoring (T3)
That's it. No other connections or prerequisites.

luxeritib complained that the tech you need for Synth Ascension comes far later than the other Ascension techs. Where I totally agree.
Cyborg is way too fast, there probably everyone agrees.
Psionic is okayish, but IMO too random. More ways to reduce the randomness a bit would be good.
Genetics is okay, but it could be a bit more complex.

Synthetics on the other hand....
Powered Exoskeletons (T1) -> Robotic Workers (T1)
Robotic Workers (T1) + Colonial Centralization (T2) -> Droids (T2)
Droids (T2) + Galactic Administration (T3) + Positronic AI (T4) -> Synthetics (T4)
If Genetics is a "Low chance tech chain" what would you call THAT?

IMO Galactic Administration (T3) and Positronic AI (T4) should be removed as prerequisite for Synthetics (T4).
And it would be still harder to get than the other Ascension techs.

You guys are forgetting that the Synthetics tech is used for things OTHER THAN Synthetic Ascension. It lets you blow off Amenities by giving you Servants. It lets you build Researchers that are better than other Researchers, even without Synthetic Ascension. If you have the Synthetic Dawn DLC, it flips the switch for allowing AI Rebellions, because it's one of the techs (alongside Sapient Combat Simulations) that gives a use for the aforementioned Positronic AI.

You're also forgetting when Synthetic Ascension was tied to Droids; they switched it back to using Droids in the first phase of the open beta, but everyone reasonably complained that that made no thematic sense, unless you based it entirely on the Limbo Event Chain (which also makes no sense, unless you think a brain scan on a thumb drive is the equivalent of fully-functional AI). Amusingly they forgot that an employee had given Synthetic Ascension maximum AI weight, making even Fanatic Spiritualists choose it until very recently.

But above all, it's the most-busted ascension regardless of what you do (I don't know if Cyborgs compare yet, since people are currently whining about the Energy upkeep when it frankly makes sense to offset how early it comes), so it should be something you patiently build up to.

 

[Psykhes]

You guys are forgetting that the Synthetics tech is used for things OTHER THAN Synthetic Ascension. It lets you blow off Amenities by giving you Servants. It lets you build Researchers that are better than other Researchers, even without Synthetic Ascension. If you have the Synthetic Dawn DLC, it flips the switch for allowing AI Rebellions, because it's one of the techs (alongside Sapient Combat Simulations) that gives a use for the aforementioned Positronic AI.

You're also forgetting when Synthetic Ascension was tied to Droids; they switched it back to using Droids in the first phase of the open beta, but everyone reasonably complained that that made no thematic sense, unless you based it entirely on the Limbo Event Chain (which also makes no sense, unless you think a brain scan on a thumb drive is the equivalent of fully-functional AI). Amusingly they forgot that an employee had given Synthetic Ascension maximum AI weight, making even Fanatic Spiritualists choose it until very recently.

But above all, it's the most-busted ascension regardless of what you do (I don't know if Cyborgs compare yet, since people are currently whining about the Energy upkeep when it frankly makes sense to offset how early it comes), so it should be something you patiently build up to.

Not really.

Personally I do not think those other connections are an issue. And even if they were, they could be "outsourced" to other techs.

And no one says it would be a good idea of Syntethics Ascension being moved back to Droids. So why even bring it up?
Just that it would be a good - and IMO balanced - move to remove Galactic Administration and Positronic AI as prerequisite for Synthetics.

It would still be the only Ascension which is tied to a t4 tech (but not to *two* T4 and one T3 tech) and usually the last you can access (unless you have rotten luck with Psionics - but I also said that getting Psionics is too random).
I would even agree with you that it is stronger than the other ascensions (although Genetics is very very close now, if it would not be so micro intensive it would be equal), but it is not so much stronger that you should only be able to pick its perk decades after you picked the perk *and* finished the tradition tree of other ascensions.