Stellaris Dev Diary #288 - Payback and Insights

[goldennick94]

Receiving a couple, flavored, "unique" techs doesn't weigh up the loss of an entire system (+ several planets if there are any). What's the point of NOT invading a pre-FTL species UNLESS it's really just one planet in that system?
This DLC is shaping up to be disappointing IMO. A lot of fluff and no changes to the pre-FTL mechanics (bar the integration into the Intel, Diplomacy and Espionage system).

The insight techs have some pretty powerful effects compared to standard techs. Also, all normal pre-ftl species only have 1 planet because they haven't gotten to space colonization and ftl techs.

idk how you can judge the dlc to be a disappointment before it's even come out yet. The dev diaries are just teasers, they don't show everything that's going to be released, and we don't know the exact scope of changes made to pre-FTL mechanics until it comes out.

 

[LogicMage]

Excited to see new techs and civics. Looking forward to next week's dev diary on cloaking.

 

[dulahan]

I'm kind of surprised Payback can't have Fanatic Purifier. I'd think if anything would turn a ccivilization into a xenophobic kill em all one it is exactly that situation!

 

[Rafss]

You people fighting to have Fanatic Purifiers enabled while I check one more origin as forbidden for Gestalt Consciousness, even more so for Machine Intelligence...
Are we having new unlocks on origins at the Patch at least?
Are we getting the Necro Recycler ME civic in this patch or the next?

 

[Flanelman]

The insight techs have some pretty powerful effects compared to standard techs. Also, all normal pre-ftl species only have 1 planet because they haven't gotten to space colonization and ftl techs.

idk how you can judge the dlc to be a disappointment before it's even come out yet. The dev diaries are just teasers, they don't show everything that's going to be released, and we don't know the exact scope of changes made to pre-FTL mechanics until it comes out.

They really don't though. Look at Orbital Mechanics. You see that half upkeep and it seems like a big number. Until you consider that the ~15 pops (rough average) you get from that planet put into Technician jobs, at a very easy to reach 20 energy output, pays that bonus for 600 stations. Which you won't reach without going super wide. The 5% bonus is miniscule, as it only affects the base. The strongest part of that tech is the .25 envoy, and that is only because of the sheer amount of more envoy usage you need to interact with this system in the first place.

 

[UltimateTobi]

You don't lose an entire system though? Just one singular planet
And for the off chance that the primitives get close to reaching FTL you can just invade them then (or enlighten them and make them a vassal, vassals are always nice to have)
But anything earlier than steam age not only has too little populace to be worth the effort, but also has no realistic chance of ever developing enough to reach space and claim the system

Granted, "one system" is a laughably low price in the first place, lol
That's at best worth a handful of minerals, energy and tech - the odds of rare resources are so low they are not even worth being considered

If they reach FTL stage or you enlighten them, yes, you lose that system and any planets in it (even if you colonized other planets in that system, you'll lose them). It is only worth enlightening them or letting them reach FTL stage if, and only if, there's only their planet in that system. As soon as you have your own in there, you'll have to invade them if you don't want to lose those planets.

The insight techs have some pretty powerful effects compared to standard techs. Also, all normal pre-ftl species only have 1 planet because they haven't gotten to space colonization and ftl techs.

idk how you can judge the dlc to be a disappointment before it's even come out yet. The dev diaries are just teasers, they don't show everything that's going to be released, and we don't know the exact scope of changes made to pre-FTL mechanics until it comes out.

The question has been asked already whether or not something'll be done in regards to shared system ownership (which is a mechanic that is already present, but only occurs in edge cases; meaning you can have a planet in another empire's system or vice versa.)
Instead of expanding upon that, and in turn not losing your planets in said system, they just add fluff (techs, events and a minimal integration into the Diplomacy, Espionage, Intel system).
Nothing substantial changes or will change.

 

[Dragatus]

Yes, there are preset empires for the new origins, but they won't be used by the AI.
If you play an empire with the Payback/Broken Shackles origin, the MSI and another empire with the other Origin will spawn, but the AI will never create a Payback/Broken Shackles empire and fill the galaxy with all these people you don't care about.

To clarify, when you say "not used by the AI" are you only talking about randomly generated empires or are the prescripted empires also set to not be allowed to spawn? How about custom empires we create with these origins?

 

[goldennick94]

They really don't though. Look at Orbital Mechanics. You see that half upkeep and it seems like a big number. Until you consider that the ~15 pops (rough average) you get from that planet put into Technician jobs, at a very easy to reach 20 energy output, pays that bonus for 600 stations. Which you won't reach without going super wide. The 5% bonus is miniscule, as it only affects the base. The strongest part of that tech is the .25 envoy, and that is only because of the sheer amount of more envoy usage you need to interact with this system in the first place.

I mean, you're making assumptions on what is defined as stations here. I assume that mining, research and observation posts are included in that. However, it could also include starbases and defense platforms and if it does, that's essentially half off stationary ships because the defense platforms and ion cannons cost as much as starships in upkeep.

I think the techs seem more powerful than normal non-insight techs and other effects because the numbers are generally much larger than what a normal tech gives in terms of percentage (5-20% normally).
For example, the "Lost Building Methods" gives -30% district cost which is twice the bonus given by the Functional Architecture civic.
The empire size reduction is also 5% more than the Modular Depots tradition given to Machine Intelligences and that tradition has no other secondary effects. So this singular tech grants 1/4 of an envoy, double the bonus from a civic that has two effects, and a 5% increase over an entire tradition.

So at least on first glance, I'd say they seem like fairly powerful effects given the large numbers. Of course, we won't know for sure where everything stacks until the dlc releases.

 

[goldennick94]

The question has been asked already whether or not something'll be done in regards to shared system ownership (which is a mechanic that is already present, but only occurs in edge cases; meaning you can have a planet in another empire's system or vice versa.)
Instead of expanding upon that, and in turn not losing your planets in said system, they just add fluff (techs, events and a minimal integration into the Diplomacy, Espionage, Intel system).
Nothing substantial changes or will change.

I mean, you're welcome to your opinion but it seems like you have a very high and somewhat arbitrary opinion of what qualifies as a "substantial change" and what isn't "fluff".

 

[DeanTheDull]

I'm... eh. There are some interesting things here, but my min-max filter is doubting that this will offer much to power gamers. That's not the worst thing in the world, but Stellaris is at its heart a power fantasy, and as much as people like to role-play their power fantasies, role-play tends to lean towards 'what works better.'

If I had to put a finger on it, I think my concern here is that these primitive-techs are actually a pretty considerable early-game investment that doesn't seem to match the early-game opportunity costs. In the early game, two of your more limited resources are your envoys (which, if I understand right, has to be committed to spying on the civilization), and your tech-pathing. The envoy loss is already extremely rough in terms of influence bypassed/wars not avoided/allies not made, but even if I misunderstand that part the tech costs in the 6k range aren't exactly trivial either. That 6k research could be +30 naval capacity, or strategic resources that can power your navy with edicts, or most of the way to Cruisers. Or it could be major econ upgrades, like the basic resource boosters. By investing the envoy I'm more likely to increase my early-game economic costs in wars-not-avoided, and by investing in insight-techs I'm less able to defend against or exploit the weakness of others. Moreover, the time it would take various builds to research the techs is such that- if I'm not conquering, I'd like to be coasting on econ tech bonuses, but if I'm researching primitive techs I'm not researching econ techs.

That's not to say there's nothing of value here, but it's not early game value, and Stellaris as a snowballing game really rewards early-payoff investments. The envoy rewards, arguably the most useful thing, are also exceptionally expensive for the early game. The Living State for +1 envoy is 6k society research, but with insight techs you're looking at 12k-24k for an envoy (albeit divided across categories). If you are in a threat environment, that's 12k research that could be going into early weapons or economy to fund a fleet- which you would have more resources to build if you invaded.

And that's just on the tech investment, and not the overlord-enabled 'uplift and put some holdings on it.' A protectorate who gives .5 influence? A megacorp branch office? Just having the right-habitability pops who can turn those 20% biome worlds into 80% resource producers?


In the early game, I'm not convinced it's worth the opportunity cost to not directly own, or even just turn into a micro-vassal. In the mid-game, by the time you could afford it, you probably wouldn't need anything it offers if you're already snowballing... and if you're not snowballing, you probably have more pressing investments to get started in a reliable manner.

(Though if you're a gambler... well, we'll see about cloaking. And that 30% district cost would be massive econ in a long-game. But the reliability/rate of getting them early enough to matter...)



I guess a basis of comparison would be the epitome of a primitives build- a necrophage run. What sort of necrophage empire would you build to make bypassing two primitive worlds preferable?

 

[Grenartia]

We've been trying to contact you about your civilization's extended warranty...

 

[lilsaihah]

You people fighting to have Fanatic Purifiers enabled while I check one more origin as forbidden for Gestalt Consciousness, even more so for Machine Intelligence...
Are we having new unlocks on origins at the Patch at least?
Are we getting the Necro Recycler ME civic in this patch or the next?

You want Reapers? This is how we get Reapers.

I guess a basis of comparison would be the epitome of a primitives build- a necrophage run. What sort of necrophage empire would you build to make bypassing two primitive worlds preferable?

A rush empire; it doesn't actually need its natural expansions and should probably skip building its first two colony ships to have more Corvettes instead.

 

[Flanelman]

I mean, you're making assumptions on what is defined as stations here. I assume that mining, research and observation posts are included in that. However, it could also include starbases and defense platforms and if it does, that's essentially half off stationary ships because the defense platforms and ion cannons cost as much as starships in upkeep.

Defense Platforms and Ion cannons have no base upkeep. You only pay for what you slot into them. Similar with starbases. And while sure, it is an assumption, I sincerely doubt it applies to starbases too. Typically those are separated in nomenclature.

I think the techs seem more powerful than normal non-insight techs and other effects because the numbers are generally much larger than what a normal tech gives in terms of percentage (5-20% normally).
For example, the "Lost Building Methods" gives -30% district cost which is twice the bonus given by the Functional Architecture civic.
The empire size reduction is also 5% more than the Modular Depots tradition given to Machine Intelligences and that tradition has no other secondary effects. So this singular tech grants 1/4 of an envoy, double the bonus from a civic that has two effects, and a 5% increase over an entire tradition.

So at least on first glance, I'd say they seem like fairly powerful effects given the large numbers.

Of course they 'seem' powerful, but most of that is because most players are bad at judging power. Look at the number of people who are intimidated by Empire Size or incessantly argue over pop traits, when they generate so little power that they may as well be pure RP.

Of course, we won't know for sure where everything stacks until the dlc releases.

Obviously. I can only judge based on what they show. And what they show right now isn't very 'strong'. At least not versus just putting those pops to work.

 

[UltimateTobi]

I mean, you're welcome to your opinion but it seems like you have a very high and somewhat arbitrary opinion of what qualifies as a "substantial change" and what isn't "fluff".

I wouldn't say arbitrary.
Let's take events; you read through them once, maybe twice and then click through to get the results. It's narrative, not gameplay.
Techs don't change gameplay either (at least not the ones they showed off). A couple % more or less here and there may change your approach, but that's about it (and as someone pointed out, those techs don't blow anything out of the water either).
Now the most significant implementation may be the integration to the Diplomacy, Espionage and Intel screen. But that, too, doesn't change the gameplay mechanics behind Pre-FTLs. It'll make it easier to check on them, true. And it streamlines it, also true.
But what really changes in the end, pre- and post-DLC? They'll still advance through their ages and eventually reach FTL stage, at which point you have two choices: let them have the system (and potentially any planets you own in it) or invade them.
According to last or second last DD, this doesn't change with the exception of the pre-FTLs "nicely asking you" if they can have that system (paraphrased quote from a dev). We may not know what happens if you say no, but I assume they either stay at a pre-FTL stage, or you're at war with them. In the former, you're at an impasse and in the latter you simply take the planet.
There are no gameplay changes pre- and post-DLC. That is my point. And that is why I am disappointed.

Granted, that may just be me. But there could've been more, like the shared system ownership mechanic being expanded upon, which would change gameplay, or at the very least give you the option to let them have their planet, reach FTL stage and you keeping yours. A replacement for a starbase could be a modified planetary ring so they can build ships, etc without owning a proper starbase (since it's still yours). The groundwork has already been laid. And maybe have the option to let them have the system. It should be an option though, and not either kill them or let them have it all.

 

[Flanelman]

I'm... eh. There are some interesting things here, but my min-max filter is doubting that this will offer much to power gamers. That's not the worst thing in the world, but Stellaris is at its heart a power fantasy, and as much as people like to role-play their power fantasies, role-play tends to lean towards 'what works better.'

If I had to put a finger on it, I think my concern here is that these primitive-techs are actually a pretty considerable early-game investment that doesn't seem to match the early-game opportunity costs. In the early game, two of your more limited resources are your envoys (which, if I understand right, has to be committed to spying on the civilization), and your tech-pathing. The envoy loss is already extremely rough in terms of influence bypassed/wars not avoided/allies not made, but even if I misunderstand that part the tech costs in the 6k range aren't exactly trivial either. That 6k research could be +30 naval capacity, or strategic resources that can power your navy with edicts, or most of the way to Cruisers. Or it could be major econ upgrades, like the basic resource boosters. By investing the envoy I'm more likely to increase my early-game economic costs in wars-not-avoided, and by investing in insight-techs I'm less able to defend against or exploit the weakness of others. Moreover, the time it would take various builds to research the techs is such that- if I'm not conquering, I'd like to be coasting on econ tech bonuses, but if I'm researching primitive techs I'm not researching econ techs.

That's not to say there's nothing of value here, but it's not early game value, and Stellaris as a snowballing game really rewards early-payoff investments. The envoy rewards, arguably the most useful thing, are also exceptionally expensive for the early game. The Living State for +1 envoy is 6k society research, but with insight techs you're looking at 12k-24k for an envoy (albeit divided across categories). If you are in a threat environment, that's 12k research that could be going into early weapons or economy to fund a fleet- which you would have more resources to build if you invaded.

And that's just on the tech investment, and not the overlord-enabled 'uplift and put some holdings on it.' A protectorate who gives .5 influence? A megacorp branch office? Just having the right-habitability pops who can turn those 20% biome worlds into 80% resource producers?


In the early game, I'm not convinced it's worth the opportunity cost to not directly own, or even just turn into a micro-vassal. In the mid-game, by the time you could afford it, you probably wouldn't need anything it offers if you're already snowballing... and if you're not snowballing, you probably have more pressing investments to get started in a reliable manner.

(Though if you're a gambler... well, we'll see about cloaking. And that 30% district cost would be massive econ in a long-game. But the reliability/rate of getting them early enough to matter...)



I guess a basis of comparison would be the epitome of a primitives build- a necrophage run. What sort of necrophage empire would you build to make bypassing two primitive worlds preferable?

So you said basically the same thing I did, but still disagreed with my post. What a nasty habit you have.

 

[Devanor]

"+0,25 envoys"
Not sure what I can do with a quarter of an envoy, but I'll take what I can get

 

[goldennick94]

I'm... eh. There are some interesting things here, but my min-max filter is doubting that this will offer much to power gamers. That's not the worst thing in the world, but Stellaris is at its heart a power fantasy, and as much as people like to role-play their power fantasies, role-play tends to lean towards 'what works better.'

If I had to put a finger on it, I think my concern here is that these primitive-techs are actually a pretty considerable early-game investment that doesn't seem to match the early-game opportunity costs. In the early game, two of your more limited resources are your envoys (which, if I understand right, has to be committed to spying on the civilization), and your tech-pathing. The envoy loss is already extremely rough in terms of influence bypassed/wars not avoided/allies not made, but even if I misunderstand that part the tech costs in the 6k range aren't exactly trivial either. That 6k research could be +30 naval capacity, or strategic resources, or most of the way to Cruisers. By investing the envoy I'm more likely to increase my early-game economic costs in wars-not-avoided, and by investing in insight-techs I'm less able to defend against or exploit the weakness of others. Moreover, the time it would take various builds to research the techs is such that- if I'm not conquering, I'd like to be coasting on econ tech bonuses, but if I'm researching these I'm not researching econ techs.

That's not to say there's nothing of value here, but it's not early game value, and Stellaris as a snowballing game really rewards early-payoff investments. The envoy rewards, arguably the most useful thing, are also exceptionally expensive for the early game. The Living State for +1 envoy is 6k society research, but with insight techs you're looking at 12k-24k for an envoy (albeit divided across categories). If you are in a threat environment, that's 12k research that could be going into early weapons or economy to fund a fleet- which you would have more resources to build if you invaded.

And that's just on the tech investment, and not the overlord-enabled 'uplift and put some holdings on it.' A protectorate who gives .5 influence? A megacorp branch office? Just having the right-habitability pops who can turn those 20% biome worlds into 80% resource producers?


In the early game, I'm not convinced it's worth the opportunity cost to not directly own, or even just turn into a micro-vassal. In the mid-game, by the time you could afford it, you probably wouldn't need anything it offers if you're already snowballing... and if you're not snowballing, you probably have more pressing investments to get started in a reliable manner.

(Though if you're a gambler... well, we'll see about cloaking. And that 30% district cost would be massive econ in a long-game. But the reliability/rate of getting them early enough to matter...)



I guess a basis of comparison would be the epitome of a primitives build- a necrophage run. What sort of necrophage empire would you build to make bypassing two primitive worlds preferable?

There's some fair points in here. I'm not sure about the spying bit though. If I understand the dev diaries so far, I believe you can only get these from not being found out by the primitives. So likely, it's to boost the value of passive observation and such. Now if just having a spy network and not running operations aids the process of getting an insight, then yes definitely, the envoy drop is pretty massive. The fractional envoy thing I could see be a snowball mechanism into diplomacy (stuff all those envoys in the galcom for massive diplo wieght and such).

I think the snowball effect from early game plays is a definitive aspect of RTS and their derivatives (4x, grand strategy, etc). These games emphasize spending to build, and so on to survive.

We'll have to see when the dlc drops what the actual impacts are, and it's incredibly likely that there will be some tuning patches after the dlc to get the feel down better.

Personally, though, I am interested in the new story aspects (especially given that this is a story pack after all). I believe it was mentioned in some interviews that the amount of words in this dlc exceed ancient relics iirc. So, I'm curious to see how pre-FTL civilizations have changed from more or less every Early Space Civilization being basically the same. I'm really hoping they've leveraged the origins and given us basically "in-development" empires that are progressing through the origins (for example a Mechanist origin empire figures out robots earlier than normal and has events based on that).

 

[DeanTheDull]

So you said basically the same thing I did, but still disagreed with my post. What a nasty habit you have.

Being all of the scathing and none of the wit is why I find you a poor echo of your reddit namesake.

 

[Flanelman]

I'm not sure about the spying bit though. If I understand the dev diaries so far, I believe you can only get these from not being found out by the primitives.

You need to run espionage missions to raise/lower awareness to gain different effects. Namely them going up/down tiers. Your going to need to do it to keep them in the range you want to farm these out. Which is a high price.

I think the snowball effect from early game plays is a definitive aspect of RTS and their derivatives (4x, grand strategy, etc). These games emphasize spending to build, and so on to survive.

It plays a huge part here too. Especially for RP. Everything in Stellaris boils down to resources. And frankly the more of them you have, the better you can manipulate the AI to do what you want, which allows you to tell the story you want. The AI is purely reactionary, which gives you a significant amount of control if you know what you are doing.

 

[Maethendias]

OF COURSE its a non gestalt origin again

OF COURSE IT IS

[profanity moderated out]

at this point they HAVE to be doing it on purpose

yeah, purifiers totally cant use an origin thats basically tailor made for them
machine intelligences obviously cant use an origin that would acutally make sense for them

no

15 bucks btw, and they couldnt even be bothered
not like revenge is basically the undercurrent motivation for most rogue ais in sci fi

btw, for a good read about exactly that: Chrysalis