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Stellaris Dev Diary #288 - Payback and Insights

Nothing unites people more than a common enemy.

You know how the story goes: space invaders attack, and the people of the world unite, casting aside their differences to stand together against a shared threat. Together, they defeat the more advanced enemy, who foolishly underestimated the plucky underdogs.

But what happens after the story ends? The former invaders are still out there, and they won’t be fooled again. An awkward reunion is unavoidable.
I'm CheerfulGoth, a content designer on Stellaris, and this is the story I wanted to tell with Payback.


Payback is the “sibling” of Broken Shackles, two origins united by a common threat: Minamar Specialized Industries, a megacorp that provides pre-FTL enlightenment – for a price. While Broken Shackles focuses more on reconnecting with your past, Payback empires only see one thing in their future: revenge.

Payback Origin Tooltip


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The means of achieving that revenge are up to you. Annihilate your enemy? Turn your slavers into your slaves? Or battle them on the floor of the Galactic senate, outlawing their very business model? Even Pacifist empires will have the means to obtain their vendetta without betraying their ideals.

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Revenge doesn’t have to be synonymous with violence.
Don’t be too hasty in your quest for revenge, though. Rest. Take your time to rebuild. The war against MSI left you with a devastated planet... And the remnant of a battleship to be repurposed for your own needs.

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Make new allies (Broken Shackles empires might be particularly inclined to help you). Remember: revenge is a dish best served cold. Don’t wait too long, though, because the Minamar Specialized Industries surely won’t let you alone.

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You want to make them pay? The feeling is mutual.

We’re not so different, you and I​

The galaxy of Stellaris is already filled with extra-dimensional invaders, space dragons, and all kinds of unimaginable horrors. With Payback and Broken Shackles, we wanted to pit players against an enemy not so different from themselves. Minamar Specialized industry starts as a developed empire with extra colonies and resources, but otherwise behaves like a normal empire with a well-defined personality. They will make their own alliances, join their Galactic Community, wage their wars... and might even fall before you can get your due.

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What will you do when even revenge is stolen from you?

Many of our narrative Origins present a fixed story. With Payback, we wanted to create a less linear narrative, providing players with multiple tools to accomplish their goal. Sometimes things don’t go as planned, but we believe that’s what will make this origin more interesting and replayable.

We give you an enemy. You tell us how you want to pay them back.



Insights​


Now for the return of PDS_Iggy who desperately wants you to stop invading pre-FTLs.

A common issue that has been brought up in regards to this DLC is “Why shouldn’t I just invade the pre-FTLs the moment I meet them” and I am here to present a counter offer. What if I give you unique techs?

Insight Technologies are gained when you study pre-FTLs without making them aware of you. They are unique paths their society take which you have dismissed as dead ends. This is all tracked through a situation which, once completed, will make a future observation event grant you a new Insight.

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We can learn from anything and anyone.

If you haven’t completed the situation when you get an observation event instead you gain even faster progress to the next Insight.

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I am sure it’s nothing.

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These Insight technologies are designed to have unique and flavorful effects. So let me share a few with you.

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Let’s see how close we can get with our observation station.

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A smart hunter lets the environment aid their hunt.

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How were the pyramids built? Let's check!

As you can see these technologies grant you partial Envoys as well as a unique benefit. Therefore, the more you spy and study the pre-FTLs, the more you can do it!

Next week, Alfray Stryke will finally tell you about cloaking, and I might be back to help him explain the new civics!

 

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I agree that the Playback origin should at the very least restrict the selection of any level of xenophile ethic. After all, this civilization was unified thanks to the fight against an alien and I don't think that is a good start for alien life to particularly like you. I think the reason for not doing it was because the origin of Fear of the Dark is already related to xenophobia to some extent. Paradox probably didn't want to convey the idea that a DLC called First Contact would focus so much on Xenophobia.
I hope the new civics brings some "goodness" to this DLC. I would have liked at least to have a somewhat more positive origin related to pre-FTL and regular empires.
 
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Did you stopped to think that maybe the Payback empire is xenophile because now they aware that there is life out there and that some of these lifeforms could have also being screwed by MSI and would be very valuable allies against them?
 
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I don't think that being invaded by one alien means you have to be xenophobic towards all aliens, also you could always excuse the xenophilia as looking for potential allies and be stronger as a group rather than self-Isolate and wait for the next MSI to try and finish the already weakened prey off
 
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I agree that the Playback origin should at the very least restrict the selection of any level of xenophile ethic. After all, this civilization was unified thanks to the fight against an alien and I don't think that is a good start for alien life to particularly attack you. I think the reason for not doing it was because the origin of Fear of the Dark is already related to xenophobia to some extent. Paradox probably didn't want to convey the idea that a DLC called First Contact would focus so much on Xenophobia.
I hope the new civics brings some "goodness" to this DLC. I would have liked at least to have a somewhat more positive origin related to pre-FTL and regular empires.

This would be like saying empires should lose Xenophile ethic if someone does an aggressive first contact with them. Of course Xenophobe is a viable option, but if you have learned MSI is a slaver empire and has done this before it's just as valid to be a democratic crusader hell-bent on the destruction of all slave states and liberation for all. There is no reason to ethics restrict payback (ethics restricting escaped slaves makes sense because any slavery permitted ethics would just explode into infighting)
 
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Did you stopped to think that maybe the Payback empire is xenophile because now they aware that there is life out there and that some of these lifeforms could have also being screwed by MSI and would be very valuable allies against them?
Yap, according to your logic, it's better to trust what you don't know yet than what you've already experienced firsthand. What guarantee would I have that these "supposed" other civilizations do not even pose a greater threat than the original one?

Also, to look for allies, we do not need to be xenophiles, remember that we are talking about a popular taste for alien life, not a political strategy.
 
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Guys, you need to stop seeing ethics in such an absolutist way. The simple fact that a culture is NOT militaristic, does not mean that they do not have an army, do not know what war is and beat their enemies with roses (unless, on the contrary, that culture is particularly pacifist).
An empire which does NOT define xenophilia or xenophobia among its ethics means that it does not feel particular distrust towards other species, but it is not that it trusts too much either. Everything falls somewhere in the middle unless you define it with a specific ethic.
 
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This would be like saying empires should lose Xenophile ethic if someone does an aggressive first contact with them. Of course Xenophobe is a viable option, but if you have learned MSI is a slaver empire and has done this before it's just as valid to be a democratic crusader hell-bent on the destruction of all slave states and liberation for all. There is no reason to ethics restrict payback (ethics restricting escaped slaves makes sense because any slavery permitted ethics would just explode into infighting)
I repeat, you don't need a xerophile ethic to achieve that. My point continues to be that the alien invasion does not have to make you xenophobic, but neither does xenophile seem like a logical option after an ALIEN INVASION!
Anyway, it's just my point of view and Paradox isn't going to change anything anyway
 
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No it's not. Actually look at how much districts add to Empire size.
When I prebuild (Which I almost always do so that I only have to touch planets once a decade), on 5x planets as an egal xenophile, district size alone can jack up my tech costs by 10% by mid game.
This is all a matter of perspective. I refuse to play what's meta. Because that is boring as all hell. I am also a rper and not a power gamer. You are acting as if your experience in the game, is the end sum of everyone's experience in the game, and it emphatically is not.
For me, one primitive planet, even with 28 on it, is inconsequential by 2300. 28 pops is inconsequential when I'm already clocking 400, and by the time they lose stellar culture shock (as of the current build), I'll be hitting about 500 (because I set low growth paramaters, run growth focused (gene clinics, robot assembly, xenocomp, all migration treaties I can, and liberating slaves off the galactic market)).

The techs may not be worth while to you, but do not make the mistake of assuming your playstyle is the end all be all. I know mine certainly isn't. To anyone who has similar playstyle to me, the techs are good incentive, and depending on the playstyle, some of them might even be worth it. We don't have all the information yet, like maybe when cloaked, frigates move at the speed of a Juggernaut. That would make Predatory tactics in valuable for some builds.
 
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No it's not. Actually look at how much districts add to Empire size.
I am currently (in 2400) sitting at 32k research (~10.5 of each type), +25k unity (total, not net), 16k unity spent on edicts, and 1360 empire size, 224.4 of which is from districts (currently reduced 10% from construction templates). -30% empire size would districts would take that down to 149.6 from districts.

Shaving 76 off my empire size would mean techs go from 2.26x cost to 2.18x cost, edicts shrink from 14.6x base to 13.8x base, and ascensions become ~5.5% cheaper.

So that -30% from districts will give me, roughly, 370 research of each type (~1100 total), save me ~900 unity in edict upkeep, and make the remaining unity 6% more effective, for an effective ~1.4k unity total.

Or, I could have had another growth queue. At my current rates, 150 years (assuming we found the primitives in 2250) of +9 growth (4.5 organic plus clone vats) would have been a whopping 22 pops. Assume they were originally in renaissance with 12 pops, and that's 34 pops. Given the choice between 1 planet of space and sprawl (which I don't need, my planets aren't full) plus 34 pops vs. 370 research of each type and 1.4k unity per month, I'll choose the latter. At any point past mid game (with ~300-400 total empire size), the empire size reduction is better, in my opinion.

If you stumbled across the pre-FTL world early on, when 12 extra pops and an extra planet was a significant portion of your total economic output, it would be way better to invade. As you move into early-mid game, that balance starts to tip. Once you're into mid game, the techs are generally more useful. If you're playing on .25 habitables instead of default settings, things may change, though.
 
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So, when will it come to consoles? Will we get more updates?

I'm always afraid it gets abandoned like Elite, cause there's not much communication.

And who do I have to subjugate to bring updates faster to consoles?
You literally just (today) got an announcement about Overlord being ported to console on March 8. Console edition launched 3 years behind the PC version, and it's now only 1 year behind on DLC. Cool your jets.
 
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So, when will it come to consoles? Will we get more updates?

I'm always afraid it gets abandoned like Elite, cause there's not much communication.

And who do I have to subjugate to bring updates faster to consoles?
no need to be so paranoid, they literally announced overlord yesterday
comes out on the 8th
 
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I don't know about you but I'm beginning to think that either we have a kind of canon villain, or in Paradox they love these guys to play villains hehehe.
Federations Story Trailer:
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First Contact
Screenshot_2023-02-24-11-57-39-611_com.android.chrome.jpg
 
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Hello there!

As an avid Driven Assimilator player, would it still apply, in that in order to gain Insight techs, we have to observe first -before- assimilating our new friends?

I usually just, for both mechanical and RP reasons, assimilate any and every pre-FTL civilization, so this might change how that goes.
 
You can not gain Fanatic purifiers, it's a nation's foundational belief, a fundamental idea that not only are the Xenos evil, but they are not real. The payback empire has had relations with Xenos, and while they have been burned, they have to admit that the Xenos are real nations.
what makes you actually think thats the case tho
 
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