• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Stellaris Dev Diary #92: FTL Rework and Galactic Terrain

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today's dev diary is about Faster than Light travel in the Cherryh update, and it's likely to be a controversial one. When discussing, please remember to keep things civil, and I would kindly ask that you read the entire dev diary before rushing to post, as it's going to cover some of the questions and concerns we expect to see from the playerbase. Also, as posted last week, all of these changes are currently far away, and we cannot give more details on ETAs or the exact nature of the Cherryh update than we already have. Thank you!

FTL Rework
The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology.

However, as I have said on the previous occasions when discussing this issue, one thing we would never consider doing is just slashing FTL types from the game without adding in something else to compensate their loss. That is what most of this dev diary is going to be about. However, before continuing with the details on the additions and changes we're making to FTL, I want to cover a couple of the questions I expect will arise from this:

Why are you removing FTL choices instead of building on them?
A lot of people have asked this question when we have brought up consolidating FTL types before, suggesting that problems such as static defenses can be solved by just adding more mechanics to handle each special case. I think the problem with this is best illustrated with defense stations and FTL inhibitors. One of the aims of the Starbase system is to give empires the ability to 'lock down' their borders, building fortresses that enemy fleets cannot simply skip past to strike at their core worlds, instead of having to create static defenses in every single valuable system.

With hyperlanes, this is a pretty simple affair: As hyperlanes create natural choke points, the only thing a hyperlane-stopping FTL inhibitor needs to do is to prevent enemy fleets from leaving the system once they enter it. The fleet can enter, it can retreat (via emergency FTL) and it can bring down the source of the FTL inhibitor (which might be a Starbase or even a planet) to be able to continue. This is quite easy to understand, both in terms of which system you need to defend to lock down your borders, and how it works when you are on the offensive.

Now let's add Warp to the mix. In this case, the single-system FTL inhibitor is useless because Warp fleets can just go over it, so we'll invent another mechanic: A warp interdiction bubble, stretching a certain distance around the system, that pull in any hostile Warp fleets traveling there to the system containing the FTL inhibitor, and force them to battle it or retreat. This is immediately a lot more messy: First of all, this bubble can't possibly affect Hyperlane fleets, because it could potentially pull them dozens of jumps away from their current location. This means that when fortifying your borders, you now need to not just make sure that every important chokepoint is covered, but also that your entire border is covered in warp interdiction bubbles.

But there's more: Add Wormholes as well, and you now have an FTL type where not only the 'bubble' type interdictor doesn't make intuitive sense (because Wormhole fleets make point-to-point jumps rather than traveling over the map) but if said interdictor works to pull Wormhole fleets out of position regardless of what makes intuitive sense, you end up with the same probem as with hyperlanes, where the fleet can get pulled out of range of its wormhole network and end up stranded even if it brings down the defenses. This means you pretty much have to invent a third type of interdiction type for Wormhole on top of what is already an overengineered and hard to understand system.

Finally, add the problem of displaying all these different types of inhibitors and interdictors on the map, in a way that the player can even remotely start to understand, and you end up with nothing short of a complete mess, where it's far better to just have static defenses protecting single valuable systems... and so we come full circle.

This is the fundamental problem that we have been grappling with when it comes to asymmetrical FTL: What works in a game such as Sword of the Stars, with its turn-based gameplay, small maps of usually no more than 3-6 empires, and 1-on-1 wars breaks down completely in a Stellaris game with real-time gameplay and wars potentially containing a dozen actors, all with their own form of FTL. The complexity collapses into what is for the player just a mess of fleets appearing and disappearing with no discernible logic to them.

Why Hyperlanes?
When discussing this, we essentially boiled down the consolidation into three possibilities: Hyperlanes only, Warp-only, and Warp+Hyperlanes. Wormhole is simply too different a FTL type to ever really work with the others, and not intuitive enough to work as the sole starting FTL for everyone playing the game. Keeping both Warp and Hyperlanes would be an improvement, but would still keep many of the issues we currently have in regards to user experience and fleet coordination. Warp-only was considered as an alternative, but ultimately Hyperlanes won out because of the possibilities it opens up for galactic geography, static defenses and enhancements to exploration.

Here are the some of the possibilities that consolidation of FTL into Hyperlanes creates for Stellaris:
  • Unified distance, sensor and border systems that make sense for everyone (for example, cost of claiming a system not being based on euclidean distance but rather the actual distance for ships to travel there)
  • Galactic 'geography', systems that are strategically and tactically important due to location and 'terrain' (more on this below) rather than just resources
  • More possibilities for galaxy generation and exploration (for example, entire regions of space accessible only through a wormhole or a single guarded hyperlane, containing special locations and events to discover)
  • Better performance through caching and unified code (Wormhole FTL in particular is a massive resource hog in the late game)
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
Are all new forms of FTL free patch content?
Yes. Naturally we're not going to charge for any form of content meant to replace the loss of old FTL types.

Hyperlane and Sublight Travel
As mentioned, in the Cherryh update. all empires will now start the game with Hyperlanes as their only mode of FTL. By default, hyperlane generation is going to be changed to create more 'islands' and 'choke points', to make for more interesting galactic geography. However, as we know some players do not enjoy the idea of constricted space, we are going to add a slider that controls the general frequency and connectivity of hyperlanes. Turning this up will create a more connected galaxy and make it harder to protect all your systems with static defenses, for players who prefer something closer to the current game's Warp-style movement.

Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
2017_11_02_2.png


FTL Sensors
Along with the change to FTL, we are also changing the way sensors work. Instead of simply being a circle radiating an arbitrary distance from a ship, station or planet, each level of sensors can now see a certain distance in FTL connections. For example, a ship with level 1 sensors (Radar) will only give sensor coverage of the same system that it is currently in, while a ship with level 2 (Gravitic) sensors will give sensor coverage of that system and all systems connected to it through a Hyperlane or explored Wormhole (more on that below), a ship with level 3 sensors will be able to see systems connected to those systems, and so on. Sensor coverage can be 'blocked' by certain galactic features (more on that below), which will also block propagation into further connected systems. We are currently discussing the implementation of sensor blockers as a potential Starbase component.
2017_11_02_1.png


Wormholes
While Wormhole as a full-fledged FTL type is gone, Wormholes are not. Instead they have been changed into a natural formation that can be encountered while exploring the galaxy. Wormholes come in pairs, essentially functioning as very long hyperlanes that can potentially take a ship across the entire galaxy near-instantly. Natural Wormholes are unstable, and when first encountered, you will not be able to explore them. To explore a Wormhole, you need the Wormhole Stabilization technology, after which a science ship can be sent to stabilize and chart the Wormhole to find out what lies on the other side. If you're lucky, this may be unclaimed space full of valuable systems, but it could just as well be a Devouring Swarm eager to come over for dinner. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of wormhole pairs in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_4.png


Gateways
Gateways is an advanced form of FTL most closely resembling the Wormhole FTL in the live version of the game. While exploring the galaxy, you can find abandoned Gateways that were once part of a massive, galaxy-spanning network. These Gateways are disabled and unusable, but with the Gateway Reactivation mid-game technology and a hefty investment of minerals, they can be restored to working order. Like Wormholes, Gateways allow for near-instant travel to other Gateways, but the difference is that any activated Gateway can be used to travel to any other activated Gateway, and late-game technology allows for the construction of more Gateways to expand the network. Also unlike Wormholes, which cannot be 'closed', Gateways also have the advantage of allowing any empire controlling the system they're in to control who goes through said Gateway - hostile empires and empires to whom you have closed your borders will not be able to use 'your' Gateways to just appear inside of your systems.

When the first Gateway is re-activated, another random Gateway will also be re-activated along with it, so that there is never a situation where you just have a single active Gateway going nowhere. There is a slider on game setup that controls the frequency of abandoned gateways in the galaxy.
2017_11_02_8.png


Jump Drives
Jump Drives and Psi Jump Drives have been changed, and is now an advanced form of FTL that mixes Hyperdrive with some functionality from the old Warp FTL. They allow for a ship to travel normally and very quickly along hyperlanes, but also come equipped with a tactical 'jump' functionality that allows a fleet to make a point-to-point jump ignoring the normal hyperlane limitations. This is done with a special fleet order where you select a target system for the jump (within a certain pre-defined range, with Psi Jump Drives having longer range than regular Jump Drives), after which the fleet charges up its jump drive and creates a temporary wormhole leading to the system. After the fleet makes its 'jump', the Jump Drive will need to recharge, with a significant cooldown before it can be used again, and also applies a debuff to the fleet that reduces its combat effectiveness while the cooldown is in effect. This allows for fleets with Jump Drives to ignore the usual FTL restrictions and skip straight past enemy fleets and stations, but at the cost of leaving themselves vulnerable and potentially stranded for a time afterwards. This design is highly experimental, and may change during the development of Cherryh, but we wanted Jump Drives to not just be 'Hyperdrive IV' but rather to unlock new tactical and strategic possibilities for warfare.

Galactic Terrain
With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships and empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).

The above is just a first iteration, and it's something we're likely to tweak and build on more for both the Cherryh update and other updates beyond it, so stay tuned for more information on this.
2017_11_02_3.png

2017_11_02_5.png


That's all for today! I will finish this dev diary by saying that we do not expect everyone to be happy with these changes, but we truly believe that they are necessary to give Stellaris truly great warfare, and that we think you will find the game better for it once you get a chance to try them. We will be doing a Design Corner feature on today's Extraterrestial Thursday stream, where me and Game Designer Daniel Moregård (grekulf) will be discussing the changes, fielding questions and showing off some gameplay in the internal development build. If you want a look at some of these changes in a live game environment, be sure to tune to the Paradox Interactive twitch channel at 4pm CET.

Next week, we're going to talk about war and peace, including the complete rework of the current wargoal system that was made possible by the changes to FTL and system control discussed in this and last week's dev diary. See you then!
 
Last edited:
  • 1
  • 1
  • 1Love
Reactions:
It might be disappointing, but stellaris wasn't really developed just as a Star Trek simulator. And forcing fleets that are in two separate systems to engage would be much more unrealistic and illogical, they're light years away from each other. Hyperlane chokepoints can easily be explained in lore terms, but I don't think you could justify having fleets fighting each other just because they were roughly nearby.

Besides, how would you define 'within two systems of each other' without hyperlanes? Warp drive distance calculations can get complicated if different empires have different levels of warp tech.
Jumping into the thread with my opinion here, so if this is being discussed/has been discussed, I'm ignorant.

Anyway, I think the person you're responding to has a point and that's what makes these changes sad. Yeah, the game wasn't designed to be a Star Trek simulator, but the in the bigger picture of things, it is designed to be. That's what's great about Stellaris, it's inclusive of just about every sci-fi trope out there. It tries to do as much of sci-fi as it can do. So many sci-fi games (and beyond) have their own stories with one "simple" design and it's taken for granted. Stellaris has always been about trying to make your own space story with the myriad tools of so many sci-fi theorists out there. To make your own mechanics for your own little part of your universe. And today part of that dream dies.

Don't get me wrong, as much as I loved wormholes and am saddened by their loss as much as everybody else who loved them, I'm very intrigued by space geography and chokepoint-style warfare. I want those things to be in the game. I just wish they didn't have to sacrifice so much for those concepts' sake.
 
Star Wars hyperspace can go any direction it wants, it's just

a) rather slow all things considered
b) not immune to flying into planets

kinda like the jump drive...

you're still thinking of hyperlanes too narrowly.

WH40K uses old!jumpdrive with extra demons

no, no it does not. they have to travel through another dimension, not instantaneous. this oher dimension has currents and geography and so you need to follow specific routes or crash into something, or literally get lost in the warp forever due to going against the current. If this is what you believe, you have not been reading the same books i have.
 
This seems like an excellent idea. Having three different starting FTL techs was interesting, but this creates the possibility of having an AI that can create and defend choke points as well as giving the player reason to plot out their empire to create their own defensive systems which should open up far more options for a strategic based game.

Definitely can't wait for this expansion.


BUT chokepoints don't make sense in SPACE. Now We'll just see Space Trumps building walls of space defense everywhere that will be
impenetrable, making war boring. They just need to buff stations, making them have more firepower and health the further you go late game, not rendering them useless.
 
Now, I haven`t had time to read the entire thread, but read the first few pages. Might I also suggest the possibility to add (late game) and destroy (mid game) hyperlanes. To create shortcuts and to create choke points.

Also, new star effects could be attrition to your hull, when staying in a system for too long (useful in longer fights).
 
What are really needed for defense stations are galaxy gun style cannons that can blast fleets apart several systems away with no possibility of retaliation until your ships slog all the way over to the cannon, taking losses the whole way. Those really scared me in sins of a solar empire.

Perhaps as a doomsday weapon/megastructure you could have one such gun that can hit anything anywhere in the galaxy to snipe fleets that worry you or take out a key star station early. Obviously with a slow reload and perhaps interceptable shells, but it'd definitely put the fear of (insert deity here) into any enemy.
 
  • Warfare with a distinct sense of 'theatres', advancing/retreating fronts and border skirmishes (more on this in future dev diaries)
@Wiz does this mean you're bringing some degree of HoI4-like mechanics into Stellaris to force doomstack splits?
 
Any real Star Wars fan knows that Star Wars hyperlanes work very different from Stellaris hyperlanes.

How very elitist of you, of course the precise functionality/behavior is going to be different. There's no such thing as 'real' fans or other permutation, just fan or non-fan, either you like a franchise or you don't. lmao
 
Last edited:
I like the Gaterways, they are how I originally thought wormholes would be. Maybe a late-game megastucture option to build you own gateways too?
One thing which hyperlane need is the ability to open new ones (maybe like the temporary lanes by Zuul in Sword of the Stars).

I am also happy that it seems sublight will actually become relevant. Perhaps introduce branching thruster techs, focusing on things like speed, evasion, power efficiency, wind-up, offensive bonuses etc.
 
Gotta say, was not expecting this. There are good arguments on both sides, but overall I am looking forward to trying it and will reserve my judgment until then. After looking at the science ship, I noticed a SINGLE reactor and armor with an actual Hit Point value, that excited me WAY more. I'm hoping that there are actual "islands," as in areas where the hyperlanes are not connected to the network and can only be reached by a wormhole or jumpdrive, and that you might even START there. Although I hope some entities keep warp, such as the Tiyanki (who I wish were more interesting than "hey look, space kraken and useless frequency tuning"), the ether drake, stellarite devourer, Wraiths, Fallen empires IF they lose their Jumpdrives, and especially the Preythorians and Contingency. It makes the crisis more powerful, as they don't and SHOULDN'T, follow your standard empire mold. Especially the Preythorians, what with intergalactic travel and all. And absolutely let the Unbidden and Fallen empires keep jump drives. Overall this makes spiral and ring galaxies far more interesting, especially if wormhole goes across the ring. To be honest, I'm actually upset about the sensor change miss than anything. Why can't sensor bubbles work? Although the change, along with nebulae, made the sentry array more powerful. Still waiting on machine intelligences being able to assimilate non sapatient robots organics build though. And dedicated carrier ships, strike craft fast enough to engage BEFORE the actual fleets start firing non XL weapons, and buildable dreadnaughts and Titans, but that's just the order of my priorities. Seriously want robot assimilating though. Why can't machine intelligences just update software and hardware and put the new production stacks to work? Great DD, really looking forward to the next one!
 
Last edited:
Sublight travel is also being changed somewhat, in the sense that you need to actually travel to the entry point to a particular hyperlane (the arrow inside a system) to enter it, rather than being able to enter any hyperlane from any point outside's a system's gravity well. This means that fleets will move in a more predictable fashion, and interdictions will frequently happen inside systems instead of nearly always being at the edge of them, in particular allowing for fleets to 'guard' important hyperlane entry/exit points. To compensate for the need to move across systems, sublight travel has been sped up, especially with more advanced forms of thrusters.
Instead of speeding ships up permanently you could have a sort of tactical redeployment from HoI4 thing where where you can reduce the combat ability for a fleet in exchange for increased sub light speed (they are diverting energy from weapons and shields to increase the speed). Obviously turning it of would not instantaneously make your ship back to 100% combat ability.

With the switch to Hyperlanes and the creation of strategically important systems and chokepoints, we've also decided to implement something we had always thought was a really interesting idea, but which made little sense without such chokepoints: Galactic Terrain. Specifically, systems with environmental effects and hazards that have profound tactical and strategic effects on ships on empires. This is still something we are in the middle of testing and prototyping, but so far we have created the following forms of Galactic Terrain:
Nebulas block all sensor coverage originating from other systems, meaning that it's impossible for an empire to see what ships and stations are inside a system in a nebula without having a ship or station stationed there, allowing empires to hide their fleets and set up ambushes.
Pulsars interfere with deflector technology, nullifying all ship and station shields in a system with a Pulsar.
Neutron Stars interfere with navigation and ship systems, significantly slowing down sublight travel in a system with a Neutron Star.
Black Holes interfere with FTL, increasing the time it takes for a fleet to charge its emergency FTL and making it more difficult to ships to individually disengage from combat (more on this in a later dev diary).
Perhaps there could be a number of different possibilities for different starts of a certain type. Like most pulsars give x but this one is a rare subtype which gives y instead. Perhaps you could have these effects hidden (but active) until a science ship scans the star?
 
BUT chokepoints don't make sense in SPACE. Now We'll just see Space Trumps building walls of space defense everywhere that will be
impenetrable, making war boring. They just need to buff stations, making them have more firepower and health the further you go late game, not rendering them useless.
And that was something I loathed with sins of a solar empire when they introduced the entrenchment expansion it killed the game for me as well as for ALL of my friends. I'm just terrified how static this may make the game.
 
seems like the exact opposite
this system appeals to the developer because they can do a lot with it

They're making the game easier, adding choke points and fixed paths like it's a cosmic WW1.

The interesting thing about space battle is that all the fighting is asymetrical. There's no easy way to defend, you can't just turtle because there are no lines, it's a giant cluster that makes Vietnam look like a line battle.
 
Well, I personnally never play with hyperlane as I simply don't like the lack of freedom it offers...

Frankly, this is disappointing and I see this decision as pure lack of imagination...
You can make warp less easy to use, with places in space which restrict its utilization. There are so many options... It's not like you're restricted by historicity or anything... You can make wormholes more unpredictable... but just letting us with this lame hyperlane and have to cross the entire system to continue our way? What in the world is that for a "space opera" feeling?... game will remain at 1.8 for me.

If you want to improve the warfare, here are a few hints:
- make a fleet composition: you describe your fleet (how many destroyer, etc.), the spaceports will automatically build the spaceships necessary. You could even choose a strategy: which spaceships are on first line, and so on (I don't even understand that this is still not even mentionned more than a year after the release)
- create abilities to force fleets to encounter if the warp thing bothers you that much, magnet, idk.
- improve land warfare (no more microing attachment and all that stuff), more strategic feeling with different types of troops we could use.
- if you want the geography to really matter make it at a space level, not like we are on a map of europe and there is the alp blocking our way because there is no hyperlane.. a black hole should have an impact on the gameplay, a pulsar too, the nebula could block your fleet from using warp or whatever, there are so many possibilities..
 
Last edited:
Really looking forward to these changes.

From what I gathered though, now with the way hyperlanes will work, if I want to send a fleet 1/4 of the way across the galaxy for something, they will potentially have to transit across the physical space in every system along the way if entry points are on opposite sides of the system? Also, does this mean that we are seeing the end of the FTL wind up/cool down (except jump drives recharging)?
 
Aaaaaand the game is dead to me. Can we have Endless Space 2 for free if we give up Stellaris ? Because right now it seems you do your best to make this game as a shitty copy of ES.

Thanks for all the fish, but imposing the FTL on player is nonsense. We could already impose it in the option, if that was our wish.

What next, remove the weapon choice and everyone start with missiles ? Remove the random generated empires because that's too complicated ?

Now we have a generic space 4x, but you know, more laggy. On top of that, I'll have to build a station in every system I own. My 2 last save I have roughly 40-60% of the territory of a 1K star map. The idea to build 400-600 station, on top of having the, IMO, horrible hyperlane is nonense. I'm out.
 
Last edited:
This opens up the potential for some new civics. For an example a civic which let's yous tart with a gate in your system (broken or working) or a wormhole.
 
ugh I am not happy with this at all, I absolutely hate hyperlanes I am a wormhole fan. All I am seeing is forcing one type of style of playing and restricting the players. I originally played this game because there was no restrictions really, you could start as wormhole or warp, or hyperlanes from the start but now you want to take the diversty and force a choice on players from the start. Now i'm not so sure about this game anymore because of these changes, I hope that the devs leave things in the game so that way modders can come in and readd things like the choice to choose what ftl method they want from the start. I also see this right now destroying alot of mods that use the current system with the way it is now
 
Status
Not open for further replies.