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Tinto Flavour #24 - 3rd of June 2025

Hello, and welcome one more Tuesday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, we will be taking a look at the Golden Horde! Being the most important Steppe Horde in 1337, it has a good mix of both unique and generic content. Let’s start, without further ado:

The great Činggis Khān managed to forge a great empire for all Mongol peoples, bringing into his fold great swathes of land from Europe to China. All people learned to fear the sound of the Mongol armies galloping and the might and power of the Great Khān.

As heirs of his legacy, the dream of bringing back the glory of the greatest Mongol Horde is still alive. It was Khān Borjigin Jochi, son of Činggis, and his son Khān Borjigin Batu who carried on the legacy of the Great Khān and established the Golden Horde.

Controlling the westernmost expansion of the great empire, they are in control of the vast steppes and many of the European countries are subservient to them, afraid of their great might.
Click to expand...

Country Selection.jpg


Golden Horde.png

Diplomacy.png

As usual, please consider any UI, 2D, and 3D art as WIP.​

Steppe Hordes are a type of Army-Based Country, and it has some specificities:
Government Horde.jpg

As you see, it starts with some Reforms and Privileges:
Estates1.png

Estates2.png

Legacy of Cinggis.jpg

Privilege Tribal Host.png

Privilege Share of the Spoils.png

Here you have some of the unique advances of the Golden Horde, as usual:
Advance Kipchack Khanate.png

Advance Legacy of Jochi .png

Advance Legacy of the Golden Horde.png

Advance Perso-Mongol.png

Advance Tatar Traditions.png

The Mongol Steppe Hordes have access to two unique units:
Horse Archers.png

A'Urughs.png

These illustrations were recently added to the unit tooltip; the first is the one for the East Asian graphical culture for Age of Traditions Horsemen, while the other is the generic one for supply units.​

And also a couple of unique buildings:
Kurultai.png

Caravanserai.png

The Golden Horde has access to a unique mechanic to portray its relationship with the Russian Principalities, the Tatar Yoke, which is an International Organization:
Tatar Yoke1.png

Tatar Yoke.png

Tatar Yoke2.png

As you see, there are three statutes, the Tatar-Overlord (the Golden Horde), the Grand Prince of Vladimir (which in 1337 is Muscovy), and the regular members:
Tatar Yoke3.png

Tatar Yoke4.png

The Grand Prince of Vladimir collects the tribute from the regular members, and sends it to the Tatar-Overlord:
Tatar Yoke Payments.png

Tatar Yoke Payments2.png

Tatar Yoke Payments3.png

…Or not, because each member has a special section in the country budget to pay more or less tribute, and then, the Grand Prince of Vladimir also chooses how much of that goes to their Tatar-Overlord:
Tatar Yoke Payments4.png

If any member, including the Grand Prince, pays less than 50% of the capacity, it will get a development malus, portraying the small-scale raids conducted by the Horde to put the princes in line. If the budget is over 50%, the members will get a bonus on their diplomats, and the Grand Prince, on its Prestige.

Finally, there are a couple of additional actions in the IO. One allows any member of the Tatar Yoke to declare war to break it, while the other allows any member to request the Tatar-Overlord to become the new Grand Prince of Vladimir:
Tatar Yoke5.png

Tatar Yoke6.png

Tatar Yoke7.png

Let’s now move into the narrative content. The most important piece of content is the Horde Civil War, a disaster that can appear if the horde unity dips too low. Once it starts, a pretender rebellion will be formed.
Horde Civil War Starting Event.png

Horde Civil War Starting Event effect.png

Horde Civil War Tooltip.png

Horde Civil War Panel.png

There are some events that can happen while the disaster is active, usually with not the best of outcomes:
Horde Civil War Rebellion Event.png

Horde Civil War Rebellion Event Option A.png

Horde Civil War Rebellion Event Option B.png


Horde Civil War Murder Event.png


Horde Civil War Border Event.png

Neighboring countries may take this opportunity to attack…​

Once the rebel progress of the pretender reaches 100%, an event will fire, giving the option to either accept their demands or make it escalate into a full civil war.
Horde Civil War Rebel Progress Event.png

Horde Civil War War.png

It is treason then…​

If victorious in the civil war, the pretender will be put in his place, but as long as the disaster is still active, another one will soon rise again:
Horde Civil War Winning Event.png

Horde Civil War Disaster Continues.png

Only when there are no more rebellions or civil wars active, and both stability and horde unity have been restored, will the disaster finally end:
Horde Civil War End.png

… And much more, but that’s all for today! Tomorrow, in Tinto Talks, we will talk about the mechanics of the Islamic religion!

And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Reply to Oglesby

No comment on the Horde Unity vs Unity?
Click to expand...
I don't feel confident commenting on it, and my response was geared towards supplying some edited images foremost, so I'll pass for now.

It is smaller, so better. But still a way to go in my mind.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's not perfect, but I think it shows the idea.

I would leave "Building Type |" in the subtitle and get rid of the banner in the second line. This will allow the third line to take up half the second line (like it used to be) without it being crowded.
(Personally I think I prefer the apple for fish icon, but at least you only have one icon)
Click to expand...
Oh, I misunderstood. You mean the actual banner... I still don't understand what you mean by second and third line.
Yeah, the apple makes more sense as long as they use it elsewhere in the game.

Yes, I think that check boxes are clearer this way.
I think a 'All Rebels are not Pretender (6 of 7)' might be better.
Click to expand...
Perhaps that's too long a sentence? Or they are relying on a coding language too much.

Over on Vic3 I signed all my post off with something like "By the way, I still don't like flag occupation" once we heard that they believed silence on the subject after release meant people all of a sudden liked it. If Wiz taught me anything it is that I have to be vocal (or at least define my silences).
Click to expand...
Oh that's funny - glad that we now can choose how we want occupations shown! Keep it up :D
 
I have to say, representing horde succession as based on military might is both inaccurate and feeds into a racist representation of steppe peoples as only concerned with plunder and conquest.


Succession was based on a complex game of political loyalty partially determined by the ability of a candidate to provide for those loyal to the them. The ultimate role of a khan was not to ensure the horde could keep plundering, it was to ensure that they continued to have access to various goods manufactured by settled peoples and ensure that tribesmen could have a basic level of prosperity.

Plunder was part of this, but more often than not trade was. The Mongol states of this era also found religion to be an increasingly important factor. The power struggle in the Chagatid lands that Timur came out of was partially motivated by a conflict between Buddhist and Muslim factions.
 
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Kotyk-durkotyk said:
And once again, Kyiv, Halych-Volhynia, Severian principalities (including those around Kursk) (maybe also those around Smolensk) never payed tribute via the prince of Moscow/Vladimir.
They were direct tributaries of the Golden Horde and had their own relations with them.

Kyiv had its own baskak mentioned in 1331 in a chronicle. The prince Fedir of Kyiv together with the Tatar baskak ambushed newly assigned bishop of Novgorod near Chernihiv on his way from Volodymyr to Novgorod.

Is it somehow reflected in the Tatar Yoke IO?

UPDATE: well... obviously, not :confused:
View attachment 1311978
Click to expand...
They should probably have a special status where they pay tribute directly to the Golden Horde.
 
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perceval350 said:
Really disappointed with the choice of representing nobility in the golden horde and it doesn't give me a lot of hope for tribal nations to have a really unique experience. I would have preferred for the tribal estate to be the main estate in these nations, which would mean that any tribal nation who wants to centralise would have to first convert it's tribal pops or conquer non tribal pops
Here is a suggestion I made a while ago on this topic :
Click to expand...
Re-reading that thread, I think I want to re-make SoPs out of ABCs, where more truly "nomadic" ABCs can be made to functionally persist without ever actually owning land. Their armies are basically their pops that can then be "made into pops" (converted freely between tribal pops and military units) and back again, including the usage of buildings to allow those resulting tribal pops to "produce" stuff that is then fed into said ABC (as foreign-located buildings), like manpower and food. They can then be up-rooted back into military units, destroying said buildings.

That would allow the representation of the various transhumance pastoralist tribes as persistent entities. It'd even give them a location presence. You can declare war on said ABC to remove the control over those tribal pops (since without those buildings, the tribal pops are "unmoored" from their ABC owner and instead tied to land owner), but they can also just... uproot their pops themselves and go "nah nah, I'm off in the mountains now, you can't beat me". Over and over. Though in a way that does ultimately allow you to truly defeat them (if you manage to well and truly spend the military effort to uproot them once and for all) in the sense of defeating any organization they may have (the pops still linger, naturally). Or you just subjugate them and don't deal with these problems.
 
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We see a massive glaring issue with the implementation of the Dhimmi as an estate of their own.

Despite the vast majority of the Golden Horde pops being tribal, 98% of them are considered Dhimmi, and that has a huge impact on the gameplay.

2.3 million tribal pops will not act as tribal pops, due to belonging to the Dhimmi estate.


1749017949054.png



@Pavía the Chieftains should probably be called 'Noyans' (Mongol), or 'Beys' (Turkic)

IMG_20250604_092602.png


 
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Can't wait to free Russian principalities from Yoke! Is there a way for Golden Horde to have more tributaries in IO? Like, CB or diplomatic action. You know, the more ‐ the merrier! :D
 
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SuperLexxe said:

We see a massive glaring issue with the implementation of the Dhimmi as an estate of their own.

Despite the vast majority of the Golden Horde pops being tribal, 98% of them are considered Dhimmi, and that has a huge impact on the gameplay.

3,017,000 tribal pops will not act as tribal pops, due to belonging to the Dhimmi estate.


View attachment 1312380


Click to expand...
I also don't get how there are 3 million Dhimmi when there are only 500k christians. Dhimmi status only applies to monotheists, does it? Am I missing something?
 
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Commodus said:
I also don't get how there are 3 million Dhimmi when there are only 500k christians. Dhimmi status only applies to monotheists, does it? Am I missing something?
Click to expand...


Looks like all non-Muslims are considered Dhimmi

Historically, even Buddhists and Hindu, etc, were applied Dhimmi status in places where they ruled by Muslims.

There should be a mechanic where you can decide which religions to consider as Dhimmi, which makes perfect sense, as that status was applied by the Muslim rulers themselves.

Will have to inquire in today's Tinto Talks.

 
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SuperLexxe said:

Looks like all non-Muslims are considered Dhimmi

Historically, even Buddhists and Hindu, etc, were applied Dhimmi status in places where they ruled by Muslims.

There should be a mechanic where you can decide which religions to consider as Dhimmi, which makes perfect sense, as that status was applied by the Muslim rulers themselves.

Will have to inquire in today's Tinto Talks.

Click to expand...
It's on my list of things to ask, too. It should really only be what were perceived to be monotheists, as that was the defining rule. The Dharmic religions got given Dhimmi status because they were interpreted to be monotheistic at their core, with the non-supreme gods interpreted as angels - they're something of an exception in having that status and have a complex and interesting history of interaction with Islam. The best option is to limit Dhimmis to the Abrahamic religions, and then allow optionally to additionally recognize other monotheistic religions, and those that were given the status historically.
 
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LordThanatos said:
It's on my list of things to ask, too. It should really only be what were perceived to be monotheists, as that was the defining rule. (The Dharmic religions got given Dhimmi status because they were interpreted to be monotheistic at their core, with the non-supreme gods interpreted as angels) The best option is to limit it to religions which got Dhimmi status historically, at least initially.
Click to expand...
The ideal solution would be to make it a choice for the player (a policy of a law ? With estates liking it and others opposing it ?), but if that requires too much work for the interest, yes, at least limit it to historically dhimmis ones.
 
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wingren013 said:
I have to say, representing horde succession as based on military might is both inaccurate and feeds into a racist representation of steppe peoples as only concerned with plunder and conquest.


Succession was based on a complex game of political loyalty partially determined by the ability of a candidate to provide for those loyal to the them. The ultimate role of a khan was not to ensure the horde could keep plundering, it was to ensure that they continued to have access to various goods manufactured by settled peoples and ensure that tribesmen could have a basic level of prosperity.

Plunder was part of this, but more often than not trade was. The Mongol states of this era also found religion to be an increasingly important factor. The power struggle in the Chagatid lands that Timur came out of was partially motivated by a conflict between Buddhist and Muslim factions.
Click to expand...

Numerous chronicles, reports of the 17th and 18th centuries provide information that the possibility of successful robbery of sedentary peoples was the main one for the power of the khans, leaders who lost the war could be killed by their own batyrs (leaders of small tribes and clans), the history of the Crimean Khanate, the Kazakhs and many others confirms this. The population of the cities and traders acted as an internal opposition to the warlike leaders, but the basis of the wealth and profit of the military force of the nomads were precisely raids, robberies and slave trade until their conquest by Russia and China, only after that the nomads switched to a peaceful pastoral way of life, this is not prejudice, this is a way of life in the steppe
 
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ArchangelGabriel said:
Why is Temujin referred to as Cinggis? His name is pretty much universally Anglicised as Genghis Khan.
Click to expand...
Beacuse he has Mongolian culture so that's how his character is called in game probably, but I do agree that outside of his character(e.g. government reforms, advances and in various descriptions) he should be called Genghis Khan
 
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Sizvahstar said:
To be honest, the one thing that disappointed me in this Tinto Flavor was seeing this:

View attachment 1312208

The Tribes are extremely few(!?) and have 0% Estate Power. That's very strange to me. Then, to make it worse, they have absolutely no Privileges? What?
I assume you can give them privileges and build them up - but why aren't they incredibly strong from the very start?

Your suggestion for the GH made the Tribes sound interesting for the first time! If they don't overhaul the GH and their Tribes mechanic, I would very much like to see your idea turned into a mod.
Click to expand...
Thanks !
 
  1. Can we see the map of various cultures inside the Horde that are not various flavors of Tatar? What do various Finno-Ugric and Chuvash provinces look like?
  2. As many have mentioned, the estates for the hordes look weird. My explanation follows:
Right now the lower stratum is split into four classes: peasants, laborers, soldiers and tribesmen, which are mapped to three estates: commoners, dhimmi and tribes. There are two main problems with this:
  1. Who are the tribesmen? Are pastoralists tribesmen? Are people not engaged in a mixture of agriculture and hunting tribesmen? Are exclusive hunter-gatherers tribesmen? Splitting them in two would make sense. The more horses the Comanche get, the more tribesmen convert to pastoralists until you can change you gov type to a horde.
  2. You can't just put every non-Muslim into the Dhimmi category for hordes. I think a special exception for Tengri pops should be made, at least, but also probably for pastoralists in general.
This way you would have the following estates:

- Nobles: Muslim or Tengri noble pops
- Clergy: Muslim clergy pops
- Burghers: Muslim or Tengri burgher pops
- Commoners: Muslim or Tengri peasants, laborers, soldiers, plus pastoralists of any religion
- Dhimmi: non-Muslim clergy, plus non-Muslim and non-Tengri nobles, burghers, peasants, laborers, soldiers

And tribesmen and slaves won't have an estate of their own unless you are a society of pops.
 
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