Tinto Flavour #24 - 3rd of June 2025

[Sizvahstar]

It's on my list of things to ask, too. It should really only be what were perceived to be monotheists, as that was the defining rule. The Dharmic religions got given Dhimmi status because they were interpreted to be monotheistic at their core, with the non-supreme gods interpreted as angels - they're something of an exception in having that status and have a complex and interesting history of interaction with Islam. The best option is to limit Dhimmis to the Abrahamic religions, and then allow optionally to additionally recognize other monotheistic religions, and those that were given the status historically.

You're proposing a sort of Religious Law that the Player can implement? Sounds interesting.

 

[Caracus]

UI feedback
Can you please put the number of the energy symbol and the pop number RIGHT of the icon?
My brain is trained to read it that way, this looks like loosely flying info.

 

[giveasifire]

Idk if this has been said but with dose 'the legacy of Genghis Khan' move to aristocracy when Genghis main reason why he remained a powerful warlords after spiltting with Jamukha was that he was extremely meritocratic? He promoted Jebe (iirc) purely because he was meritocratic (bc he was such a good shot)

 

[ArchangelGabriel]

Beacuse he has Mongolian culture so that's how his character is called in game probably, but I do agree that outside of his character(e.g. government reforms, advances and in various descriptions) he should be called Genghis Khan

Genghis isn't an English name though, Cinggis is also an Anglicisation of his name - after all, Mongolian is not written with Roman characters. Why Anglicise it as Cinggis when Genghis is the standard and pretty much universal Anglicisation?

 

[CrabHelmet]

Idk if this has been said but with dose 'the legacy of Genghis Khan' move to aristocracy when Genghis main reason why he remained a powerful warlords after spiltting with Jamukha was that he was extremely meritocratic? He promoted Jebe (iirc) purely because he was meritocratic (bc he was such a good shot)

Because it's not based on Genghis' own principles, but his legacy. What actually happened post-Genghis was that Borjigin descent became almost mandatory to have any kind of legitimacy in steppe and steppe-adjacent societies - see Timur having to initially use a series of Ogedei puppets and then rest on his apparent maternal descent from Genghis. There are almost no cases of any significant steppe ruler following Genghis who was not of Borjigin descent. Hence, it did create a permanent aristocratic strata and a veneration for them which made undoing that strata incredibly difficult. The Kumul Khanate was only abolished in 1930!

 

[pheonix_cruz]

Can you provide any more info on this? This sounds like a great mechanic that will hopefully give a greater sense that the ai has agency, awareness, and ambition.
How does this actually work? Is this mechanic always in effect to some degree, or does it only activate via certain conditions like this event?

 

[Ratstranger]

I can't say I liked stuff revealed about Golden Horde Civil War.

What Russians called Великая Замятня (roughly "Great Upheaval') was a multi-generational conflict which eventually with other factors such as Timur invasion led to collapse of Golden Horde into many small khanates (Khazan, Astrakhan. Criman, Siberian, etc).

I'm not sure this system represents that well, unless it's somehow works though other mechanics, like horde, or events we were not shown.

It seems like you just get constantly spammed by rebel until either event ends or someone will take you out of your misery. This should work like Delhi Sultanate collapse with different regions declare independence.

Also, I don't like that much this "warlord" system. It doesn't represent figures like Mamai, who was a warlord essentially controling most of the Golden Horde, but ruled not directly, but by controling several puppet Chingizid khans. some of whom were underage.

 

[Oglesby]

Oh, I misunderstood. You mean the actual banner... I still don't understand what you mean by second and third line.
Yeah, the apple makes more sense as long as they use it elsewhere in the game.

Something like this (rough copy paste)

 

[Burgundy_UB]

I think this flavor doesn't represent the historical mechanics of the Golden Horde. I will propose some stuff, according to the work of the historian Marie Favereau.

First, the Golden Horde was much more a confederation of different hordes, ruled by heirs of the sons of Jöchi or some non-Borjigin noyans. Mains were:
- Grey Horde rules by Chaybanids (north-east)
- Blue Horde ruled by heirs of Orda (east)
- White Horde, the main horde, around the Volga
- Nogay Horde, in the Bujak steppe (around lower Molavia)
- Kiyat Horde, around Crimea
- Qongirrad Horde in Khorezm
Maybe the Golden Horde should be represented as an IO itself, with a competition between the main hordes to get supremacy, like the HRE. The Khan should be elected during the Quriltaï by the main hordes, and a Borjigin, as the Ilkhanate.

Then, there is a big problem about the pops. The Golden Horde was founded with an elite of 4000 mongol warriors granted by Gengis Khan to Jöchi. This men were the ancestors of the begs, wich should replace the cheiftains. If you include their families, you can estimate their number around 30000 in 1337, with a mongol culture.
Another important social component of the Golden Horde was the Keshig. It was the guard of the Khan, and each khan of each horde had one. Most of this people were not mongols, with some hostages of vassal states. I don't know if they should be considered as an order, or as a part of the gameplay with some specific events (relating the relations with the vassals, the purge when a new Khan comes to power...).
The traders should be a very cosmopolite order, and the commoners shoud be constitued of russians. It represents the sedentary settlers of steppe, allowed by the Khan.
Finally, as mentionned by others, there is a big problem with the Dhimmi: the population of the Golden Horde, except from the begs (aristocracy) and the commoners, were nomadic people. It's a nonsense to separate dhimmi and tribesmen.
In short, here is my proposal of orders for the Golden Horde (to be shared out between the main hordes):
- begs (30000, mostly mongols and muslims)
- ulama (10000, keeping as shown)
- traders (7000, multicultural)
- commoners (900 000, russians and orthodoxs)
- nomads (3M, with local nomadic cultures, muslims and tengrists)

Hope it helps !

 

[keaswaran]

Really disappointed with the choice of representing nobility in the golden horde and it doesn't give me a lot of hope for tribal nations to have a really unique experience. I would have preferred for the tribal estate to be the main estate in these nations, which would mean that any tribal nation who wants to centralise would have to first convert it's tribal pops or conquer non tribal pops
Here is a suggestion I made a while ago on this topic :

This sounds really good for representing the situation in North America too (though a lot of driving the tribal pops out and replacing them with settled colonists didn’t happen until the last decade or so of the timeline of the game).

 

[keaswaran]

Genghis isn't an English name though, Cinggis is also an Anglicisation of his name - after all, Mongolian is not written with Roman characters. Why Anglicise it as Cinggis when Genghis is the standard and pretty much universal Anglicisation?

“Cinggis” (or is it “Činggis”?) isn’t an Anglicization of the name - it’s a transliteration. For a lot of languages written in a non-Roman script, there is a systematic transliteration for writing it in the Roman script, that related it to other words and names in the same language in a systematic way. An “Anglicization” is usually a one-off attempt to replace an individual word or name in a way that fits English speakers specifically, with no attempt at systematicity for the whole language, rather than all users of the Roman alphabet.

 

[perceval350]

To be honest, the one thing that disappointed me in this Tinto Flavor was seeing this:

View attachment 1312208

The Tribes are extremely few(!?) and have 0% Estate Power. That's very strange to me. Then, to make it worse, they have absolutely no Privileges? What?
I assume you can give them privileges and build them up - but why aren't they incredibly strong from the very start?

Your suggestion for the GH made the Tribes sound interesting for the first time! If they don't overhaul the GH and their Tribes mechanic, I would very much like to see your idea turned into a mod.

Actually, now that I reread what I wrote, I didn't now back then anything about the cultural system in eu5 but it actually really fits with the idea considering it has got a cultural relationship mechanic

 

[perceval350]

This sounds really good for representing the situation in North America too (though a lot of driving the tribal pops out and replacing them with settled colonists didn’t happen until the last decade or so of the timeline of the game).

Definitely ! How cool would it be to have part of your gameplay as a colony being managing relationships with tribesmen within your country. You could actually imagine an alternate gameplay where instead of trying to expell them and take their land, instead you try to convert them to other pop types to centralise them in your state

 

[Sizvahstar]

Something like this (rough copy paste)

View attachment 1312701

That looks good - assuming there won't be too many icons clogging up the line, it could work.
I wonder if different UI scales will make a mess of it all though; will the menus be larger or just the content in them? They haven't shown any UI scaling yet.

 

[Sizvahstar]

I think this flavor doesn't represent the historical mechanics of the Golden Horde. I will propose some stuff, according to the work of the historian Marie Favereau.

First, the Golden Horde was much more a confederation of different hordes, ruled by heirs of the sons of Jöchi or some non-Borjigin noyans. Mains were:
- Grey Horde rules by Chaybanids (north-east)
- Blue Horde ruled by heirs of Orda (east)
- White Horde, the main horde, around the Volga
- Nogay Horde, in the Bujak steppe (around lower Molavia)
- Kiyat Horde, around Crimea
- Qongirrad Horde in Khorezm
Maybe the Golden Horde should be represented as an IO itself, with a competition between the main hordes to get supremacy, like the HRE. The Khan should be elected during the Quriltaï by the main hordes, and a Borjigin, as the Ilkhanate.

Then, there is a big problem about the pops. The Golden Horde was founded with an elite of 4000 mongol warriors granted by Gengis Khan to Jöchi. This men were the ancestors of the begs, wich should replace the cheiftains. If you include their families, you can estimate their number around 30000 in 1337, with a mongol culture.
Another important social component of the Golden Horde was the Keshig. It was the guard of the Khan, and each khan of each horde had one. Most of this people were not mongols, with some hostages of vassal states. I don't know if they should be considered as an order, or as a part of the gameplay with some specific events (relating the relations with the vassals, the purge when a new Khan comes to power...).
The traders should be a very cosmopolite order, and the commoners shoud be constitued of russians. It represents the sedentary settlers of steppe, allowed by the Khan.
Finally, as mentionned by others, there is a big problem with the Dhimmi: the population of the Golden Horde, except from the begs (aristocracy) and the commoners, were nomadic people. It's a nonsense to separate dhimmi and tribesmen.
In short, here is my proposal of orders for the Golden Horde (to be shared out between the main hordes):
- begs (30000, mostly mongols and muslims)
- ulama (10000, keeping as shown)
- traders (7000, multicultural)
- commoners (900 000, russians and orthodoxs)
- nomads (3M, with local nomadic cultures, muslims and tengrists)

Hope it helps !

This is such an interesting idea, and it does make sense to me. "Maybe the Golden Horde should be represented as an IO itself, with a competition between the main hordes to get supremacy, like the HRE. The Khan should be elected during the Quriltaï by the main hordes, and a Borjigin, as the Ilkhanate."

I find the idea of a Horde "HRE" exciting! Do you reckon that the vassal/member Hordes should control their own armies, be allowed to Raid neighbours but not allowed to declare war outside of the Golden Horde HRE? (I think that if they declared wars on their own they'd either get smashed over time or devour the world, especially if they have access to the flip-territory-when-at-war mechanic.)

 

[Ratstranger]

Well. to be honest, it wasn't immediatly like that. It wasn't "Horde HRE" by design. As Great Upheaval/Great Troubles as it's named in Eng wiki progressed, centralised control over various regions degraded, their rulers acted independently and supported one pretendent or another, which could play significant role in struggle.

Tokhtamysh managed to more or less unify the Golden Horde by end of 14th century, but then the Timur came. He beated Tokhtamysh and sort of made Horde into vassal, but after Timurid own troubles started Horde continued to collapse wich happened throughout 15th century.

Alltogether it's not that unsimiar with the stort of Delhi sultanate, which has mechanics allowing for such events to happen.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I think this flavor doesn't represent the historical mechanics of the Golden Horde. I will propose some stuff, according to the work of the historian Marie Favereau.

First, the Golden Horde was much more a confederation of different hordes, ruled by heirs of the sons of Jöchi or some non-Borjigin noyans. Mains were:
- Grey Horde rules by Chaybanids (north-east)
- Blue Horde ruled by heirs of Orda (east)
- White Horde, the main horde, around the Volga
- Nogay Horde, in the Bujak steppe (around lower Molavia)
- Kiyat Horde, around Crimea
- Qongirrad Horde in Khorezm
Maybe the Golden Horde should be represented as an IO itself, with a competition between the main hordes to get supremacy, like the HRE. The Khan should be elected during the Quriltaï by the main hordes, and a Borjigin, as the Ilkhanate.

Then, there is a big problem about the pops. The Golden Horde was founded with an elite of 4000 mongol warriors granted by Gengis Khan to Jöchi. This men were the ancestors of the begs, wich should replace the cheiftains. If you include their families, you can estimate their number around 30000 in 1337, with a mongol culture.
Another important social component of the Golden Horde was the Keshig. It was the guard of the Khan, and each khan of each horde had one. Most of this people were not mongols, with some hostages of vassal states. I don't know if they should be considered as an order, or as a part of the gameplay with some specific events (relating the relations with the vassals, the purge when a new Khan comes to power...).
The traders should be a very cosmopolite order, and the commoners shoud be constitued of russians. It represents the sedentary settlers of steppe, allowed by the Khan.
Finally, as mentionned by others, there is a big problem with the Dhimmi: the population of the Golden Horde, except from the begs (aristocracy) and the commoners, were nomadic people. It's a nonsense to separate dhimmi and tribesmen.
In short, here is my proposal of orders for the Golden Horde (to be shared out between the main hordes):
- begs (30000, mostly mongols and muslims)
- ulama (10000, keeping as shown)
- traders (7000, multicultural)
- commoners (900 000, russians and orthodoxs)
- nomads (3M, with local nomadic cultures, muslims and tengrists)

Hope it helps !

I appreciate the ambition but I think some of these suggestions are a little anachronous? In the Great Troubles, loyalties were personal and often rapidly changing rather than there being stable subordinate hordes; the Golden Horde was rather closer to a unitary polity undergoing a ferocious civil war than a decentralized polity. For example, Edigu's initial powerbase was in Crimea even though by origin he was a Manghit. I'd make an exception for the Blue Horde and the Grey Horde, because they're relevant in 1337, but I don't know it makes sense in a 1337 start to have e.g. the Khongirads as a faction. Naghday didn't found a powerbase in Khwarezm because he was a Khongirad, he was simply an influential general. I've read Favereau's works, but I think you're reading back too far from her account of the late Jochid period into the politics of 1337.

 

[Fawr]

Those horse archer units require 0 men per month?

Is that 20% off 1 man, rounded down? In that case it would be good to show fractions.

 

[Ispil]

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We see a massive glaring issue with the implementation of the Dhimmi as an estate of their own.

Despite the vast majority of the Golden Horde pops being tribal, 98% of them are considered Dhimmi, and that has a huge impact on the gameplay.

3,017,000 tribal pops will not act as tribal pops, due to belonging to the Dhimmi estate.

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View attachment 1312380

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@Pavía the Chieftains should probably be called 'Noyans' (Mongol), or 'Beys' (Turkic)

View attachment 1312381

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Aside from the "choosing how to categorize non-Muslim faiths" bit which seems fine enough, I'd probably go further and not make it applicable at all for tribal pops.

Like... they're already effectively outside of the state system; that's literally the meaning of being a "tribal" pop. To categorize them as anything other than that is to be missing the forest for the trees.

 

[elayzer_gs]

One thing I will never understand is that you act like you are afraid of Turks. Why don't you place in this hordic nation Turkic culture instead? They believe in Tengri but they are not Turkic? What a logic... they do not speak Mongolian, they speak Turkic. They do have Turkic culture and they spread during this period of time.

Actually, after what you did with Anatolia, I don't expect good things from your hands in terms of historical accuracy.. You placed Armenian culture where first Turks lived by and no, Turks do not come Anatolia instantly as you try to implement in this game. They came with Seljuks to Anatolian peninsula. First landed Turkic places by Oghuz Turks are called Armenian culture.