Tinto Maps #24 Korea and Japan Feedback

[hrolfrhuu]

What does the Kyushu population in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula represents?

 

[xinche]

Weihai was the military port of the Beiyang Fleet. In the late Qing Dynasty, it was the station of Asia's most powerful navy at that time. It is impossible for it to be black.

 

[Zerodv]

"Though the Ainu land once included southern Kamchatka, the northern part of the main Japanese island (Honshu), northern Sakhalin and the lower Amur region (Kodama 1972:17-25, Takakura 1955:57-58, 66), the Ainu homeland in the recent past consisted of the islands of Hokkaido, southern Sakhalin and the Kuriles..."
Ohnuki-Tierney, Emiko. “Another Look at the Ainu—A Preliminary Report.” Arctic Anthropology 11 (1974): 189–95.

"Trade across Tsugaru strait between Japan and Hokkaido started quite early. The SDE vol. 3 written in 1356, says that the Ezo living near Matsumae "went out to trade at the ports of Tsugaru in the Ou region." Tosa in Tsugaru (an auxiliary naval port located at the mouth of Tosa Bay in Tsugaru) was the center of trade between the mainland and Hokkaido. It was the largest seaport in Ou with ships from both Ezo and the capital of Japan going in and out"...
Shinichirō, Takakura, and John A. Harrison. “The Ainu of Northern Japan: A Study in Conquest and Acculturation.” Transactions of the American Philosophical Society 50, no. 4 (1960): 1–88.

This is not really evidence of Ainu living in Aomori in 1337, but I found this:

The Ainu of Tsugaru : the indigenous history and shamanism of northern Japan

In presenting this thesis in partial fulfilment of the requirements for an advanced degree at the University of British Columbia, I agree that the Library shall make it freely available for reference and study. I further agree that permission for

www.academia.edu

 

[matfer13]

I know that it's called Seto Inland Sea but looking at other sea tiles in the region I feel like it should be narrows

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Barely changed anything award

 

[EasterEgg3323]

To put it bluntly, even before the creation of Hangul, Chinese and Korean were not mutually intelligible languages, so applying Hanja directly to Korean was also a difficult task. As a result, they diverged into distinct systems with separate usage rules and grammar, which is referred to as "Idu 이두(吏讀)." The earliest recorded evidence of Idu with epigraphic materials dates back to the early 5th century (412 CE) in the Gwanggaeto Stele of Goguryeo. This record features a variant form of Hanja (變體漢文) with a different word order from standard Chinese, containing significant elements of the Korean language. Specifically, Idu-style expressions such as "Ji 지 (之)" and "Sang 상 (上)" are found in the text.

The words themselves may be the same Hanja characters, but the pronunciation and grammar are completely different. I'm not sure if we can call this the same "language." I'm sure there are many similar examples in Europe.

 

[tinto²]

Very interesting work!

I have a question regarding the decision of Court Language for the Korean kingdom at this time (1337 opening). As we all know, the Hangul (or Korean alphabet) is developed by Sejong the Great in 1443, and therefore does not exist in1337. The Court language in 1337 is effectively Chinese (classical Chinese if to be exact).
I feel it would be more historically accurate and appropriate to set the Court Language in Korea at the start to be Chinese, and introduce an event to fire around 1443-ish to describe the development of Hangul and allow the player to change the Court Language from Chinese to Korean. The development of Hangul is an important culture and history event in Korea and I believe it deserve some attention. It also fits the EU5 timeline very well.

In fact, the development and usage of Hangul cause quite some disturbance in the Korean nobles and scholars and had a few pushbacks. For example, a famous Korean scholar and noble at that time, Ch'oe Malli (he has a Wiki page), had written a few formal protest against the implementation of Hangul (original text can be checked at this wiki page and wiki sources too). For a few reasons, including rejection from the noble class, the Prince Yeonsan and King Jungjong actually abolished the usage of Hangul in 1504/1506. The Hangul sees its revival only a few hundreds years later, mainly in the 19-20th century.

If the team has the time and resources, these may even provide a flavour event chain revolving around Hangul between 1440s~1510s to show the struggle between the King and noble class in Korea.

Hangul is a letter, not a language. (The difference between language and letters) So the court language in Korea is Korean.

 

[Wildrake]

Does Japan have some modifiers to represent its unusually snowy winter or overall rough climate? Their geographical setup seems too good here.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Can we get an explanation on why you divided Japanese cultures into the current four subcultures? For Saigoku and Togoku it looks to be entirely based on the border between Western and Eastern Japanese dialects, with Kyushu and Tohoku being regional break offs from the larger Eastern and Western branches. Is there any particular reason the team decided to split it 4 ways rather than simply dividing it into two, or going for ever further balkanization by dividing cultures entirely around regions? (Kyushu, Shikoku, Kanto cultures etc...)

View attachment 1315826

Basically a balance between actual distribution, gameplay, and historical significance.

 

[Ivashanko]

Is Japanese religion in this period so distinct that it belongs in its own category, instead of being grouped in with Buddhism? I'm assuming Shinto is part of the Buddhist religious group, but I'm curious if Japan should instead simply be Mahayana Buddhist.

This is a genuine question: there is a great deal about 14th century Japanese religious practices I do not know.

 

[nyetflix2]

Barely changed anything award

Not as much needed changed as some other regions, it seems, so nothing to complain about.

 

[Goblin Slave]

Does Japan have some modifiers to represent its unusually snowy winter or overall rough climate? Their geographical setup seems too good here.

I never got a response on either of my snow country posts, so I doubt they've added anything to represent the harsher winters of the Sea of Japan region

Reposting my comment from the Japan Tinto Maps

How do you guys plan to represent Japan’s snow country, the climate is subtropical and temperate generally, but due to its geography it’s gets some of the heaviest snowfalls in the world. Can you just give it a special modifier that gives worse winters despite the climate?

Snow country (Japan) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Japan is the world's snowiest country, 51% covered by snow | | Salam Groovy Japan

Surprisingly, Japan is the snowiest country in the world.According to the US-based AccuWeather survey, Japanese cities are among the top 3 in the world for annual snowfall in cities with over 100,000

www.groovyjapan.com

The heavy snowfalls of Japan's snow country are caused by moisture-laden clouds bumping up against the mountains along the backbone of Honshū and releasing their moisture under the influence of westerly winds blowing off the continent or down from Siberia. As a result, the region includes some of the world's snowiest spots at the same latitudes, many localities are also frequently visited by avalanches.

Frequently snow is so deep in some places that buildings have a special entrance on their second story; people must remove snow from their roofs to prevent its weight from crushing their homes, and special care is taken to protect trees from the snow's weight. In some towns, people used to tunnel paths to one another's homes, and streets were lined with covered sidewalks to ensure that people could get around. Today in areas where temperatures are high enough to make it practical, many roads are equipped with sprinklers using warm ground water to keep them passable by melting the snow.

The most recent record snows were brought by the blizzards of December 2005–February 2006, when well over 3 m (4.5 m in one part of Aomori Prefecture) of snow accumulated in many rural areas, and anywhere from 46 cm (Tottori) to nearly 1.5 m (Aomori) piled up even in several major cities.


(Map of Japans snow country)

 

[Zerodv]

I never got a response on either of my snow country posts, so I doubt they've added anything to represent the harsher winters of the Sea of Japan region

on the other front, snowless winters might also be worth representing? Which is most of continental climates in continental Asia

 

[aisacasimof]

Could give me the reason why Kyushu culture is marked with diagonal lines in the southern part of the Korean Peninsula on cultural maps? It seems insufficient to say this represents 'waegwan' (japanese trading posts), since waegwan weren't very active during the Goryeo period and their scale wasn't that large. Even in the early Joseon period, I understand there were only a few thousand people, so I'm curious about this.

 

[Roger Corominas]

Were the Matsura clan added? It's very hard to see anything with how zoomed out the map is
View attachment 1315839

Not individually right now, but there's the Yamashiro and the Hata clan, which both descend from the Matsura clan (the Hata being actually the biggest clan in the Matsura group)

 

[Roger Corominas]

Interesting, I cannot find much if anything on this rebellion sadly

You have to search in Japanese: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/安藤氏の乱

 

[Wildrake]

Province of Miyazaki (also rename to Jogasaki) doesn't include city of Miyazaki

 

[Roger Corominas]

Regarding Mod Detail (Clan Elements)​

I propose to introduce detailed Clan elements, similar to the NMIH mod. I believe a detailed Clan system would be very effective in allowing players to deeply immerse themselves in history and experience the complex human relationships and power structures of medieval Japan. It offers several benefits:

• Enhanced Historical Immersion: By accurately replicating the historical backgrounds of individual clans and their ties to branch and cadet families, players can experience a more realistic medieval Japanese political and social landscape, beyond just inter-faction conflicts.
• Added Strategic Depth: Integrating intra-clan rivalries, loyalty dynamics, and marital alliances into the game system would expand diplomatic and internal affairs options, leading to more complex and nuanced strategic possibilities.
• Stronger Character Role-Playing: When a player's character belongs to a specific clan, it becomes easier to role-play in alignment with that clan's traditions and goals, enriching the overall game experience.

Of course, with NMIH as a precedent, referencing it could alleviate development complexity, making the effort well worth it.

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Regarding the Historical Accuracy of the Map​

Regarding the current map's discrepancies, such as the Noto Hatakeyama clan's presence in 1337, I want to emphasize that this point is crucial. The Noto Hatakeyama clan is merely an example, and I recognize this as an important aspect of the game's initial setup.
I believe that the placement of forces on the map should be as historically accurate as possible, and a separate system should be implemented for shugo (provincial governor) appointments and changes. Here's why:

1. Emphasis on Historical Accuracy: If the initial map deviates from historical fact, it could confuse players starting the game with historical context in mind. For historical strategy games like the EU series, the accuracy of initial settings greatly impacts the realism of the game experience.
2. Creation of Dynamic Gameplay: A separate shugo appointment system would allow for more dynamic and historically consistent events within the game, such as changes in shugo, or multiple clans vying for the same shugo position. This would lead to much more diverse gameplay than simply fixing a static initial placement.
3. Expansion of Player Choices: Making the acquisition and maintenance of shugo positions in-game objectives provides players with new strategic goals as they develop their own forces.

If there are other instances where the initial settings differ from historical fact, please share that information. It would greatly contribute to creating a more accurate map.

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Conclusion​

Implementing clan elements is a great way to enhance both the historical immersion and strategic depth of the game. Additionally, the map's initial settings should prioritize historical accuracy, and dynamic elements like the shugo appointment system should be handled separately to achieve a more realistic and diverse gameplay experience.

The Hatakeyama clan is already present in Noto. For the rest of issues, I'd say wait for the Tinto Talks and Tinto Flavor of the rest of the week.

 

[Nosillew]

Please avoid generalizing continental East Asia as "Eastern Buddhism" in a monolithic way. I’d love to see Taoism and Muism represented separately as distinct religions, each with their own unique mechanics and regional dynamics.

 

[APlayerInMC]

any SoP maps？