Tinto Maps #9 - 5th of July 2024 - Carpathia and the Balkans

[dragonluke]

if you have Aromanians and Istro-Romanians you might as well ad Megleno-Romanians

 

[Deleted user]

Make Roman Empire color great again!

Just joking around

It's true country color is trivial at this stage, taking into account many other aspects before, but for a country such as Byzantium, I think it already deserves a stronger purple/reddish one, instead of that weak washed pink

Something similar to previous games, color such as this one, maybe?

Suggested	Original

Also, in the other hand I think Bulgaria needs a new one too, and preferably one that is not greenish so it does not get confused with a more than likely expansion of the Ottomans. I think that's what I read about it yesterday anyway?

And about cultures, I liked what I read that a blue one for Greek is nice, because right now it's quite hard to differentiate from their neighbors, especially when there are stripes.

That's all feedback I can give about this TM, more personal aesthetic color preference than anything else really, since my knowledge about the history of the region is quite limited apart from the Byzantine Empire, and their civil wars and turmoil around these dates. Cheers!

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

I think Bulgarias colour (along with the culture colour)should be changed to a darker grey or possibly a green as it looks much better (in my opinion) and fits with other paradox games. Also sticking with colour I think a system like CK3 where the colour of a dynasty changes to the colour of the most important realm would be cool.

Also the Greek culture colour looks very dull and way to similar to Turkish which is especially important to not have considering the cultural mixing in border provinces. I think either I light blue or light purple would be good although not entirely certain how to change the Greek culture colour.

I agree with the part that Bulgaria should be green like in HOI4 and Greek culture light blue.

 

[Timoteus-SWK]

But like how can you tell other than the Komitat Baranya example that Slavs/Slovaks were at least 25% of the population? That's the threshold for minorities to be shown.

The evidence you presented might reflect a 5% minority just as well as 30% one, it's not exactly clear

It is impossible to estimate the exact number, but if there are dozens of toponyms of this origin in the manuscripts, and if there are personal names of this origin in the manuscripts, what are the conclusions: a) there was a large community speaking this language and influencing the use of toponyms from the Slovak language, b) there was a strong group of educated people (clergy, officials) using mainly Slovak forms instead of Hungarian, c) both conclusions...? How else do you explain the fact that Slovak word/name forms appear so often in the manuscripts (even if Hungarian forms were used before)? It would be strange to conclude that perhaps 5% of Slovaks lived in every village with a Slovak name! How could their language be so vivid that it could repeatedly beat Hungarian morphology? But the question is also the other way round: how can you prove that more than 75% of Hungarians lived there? By the way, you see that Stanislav shows that there were Slovaks even in Baranya County. I was more cautious and suggested to add the Slovak minority at least in the upper part of Pannonia.

 

[Romancommander95]

Why is Wallachian the primary culture of Moldavia, its soo inaccurate. Romanian should be either Romanian or a mix of Vlachs, Slavs and whats left of the Cumans as a minor culture. Also speaking of minor cultures, are Aromanians, Dalmatians and Macedonians present as a culture and also any other ancient and dark age cultures that continue to exist in 1300s? But as word of advice, make sure you stick to key facts even if not every person in the Balkan community agrees on it

 

[JohnCro]

I wanted to say the map looks so good however I would like some changes to Croatian locations. It is just my attempt with simple drawing app I did back when Italy was shown. I think there could definitely be some more locations

I tried to show the ottoman advance better so there should be new locations and Slunj is too large. Kaseg though should be larger I think (and to show advance better there). Sinj I think should exist as Makarska is a coastal town and interor is rather remote for it (and for some granularity too)

Brod and Nin are optional , just something I would like to see. Same with Osijek as a location (which I did not draw here) and renaming of Slano to Ston. It should definitely have event for great wall fortification if Ragusa takes it.

Speaking of Culture Dalmatian should be only confined to the islands and the very coast, like larger cities like Split, not inland at all to be visible on map. At this time the cities on coast are already in process of becoming slavicised more and more.

Also Kaseg and Bihać should be continental climate in my opinion, Koppen shows the region as continental mostly

 

[Antimonum]

I noticed an other couple of inaccuracies in the Big Province names:

Dospat is not at all in Pirin but in the Rhodopes. Pirin was also not used as administrative Province name, especially not in Byzantium. It was first in the 19 century that the name Pirinska Makedonia was used in Bulgarian. For the Povince - I would shift Dospat to Rhodope and make the Province Melnik (as it was important in the middle ages), the same as the location.

On the location of Haskovo I think it should be renamed to Mezek and added to Zagore Province (even if inside Byzantium) but also maybe should be split in two and the southern part should be a location called Perperik (or Perperikon in greek). Perperik should be inside Rhodope.

 

[Perth1800]

Greetings, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! This week we will be taking a look at Carpathia and the Balkans! It will most likely be an interesting region to take a look at, with a lot of passion involved… So I’ll just make an initial friendly reminder to keep a civil discussion, as in the latest Tinto Maps, as that’s the easiest way for us to read and gather your feedback, and improve the region in a future iteration. And now, let’s start with the maps!

Countries:
View attachment 1158260
Carpathia and the Balkans start in a very interesting situation. The Kingdom of Hungary probably stands as the most powerful country in 1337, but that only happened after the recovery of the royal power enforced by Charles I Robert of the House of Anjou, who reined in the powerful Hungarian nobility. To the south, the power that is on the rise is the Kingdom of Serbia, ruled by Stefan Uroš IV Dušan, who has set his eyes on his neighbors to expand his power. The Byzantine Empire, meanwhile, is in a difficult position, as internal struggles ended in Andronikos III being crowned sole emperor, at the cost of dividing the realm; both Serbia and Bulgaria have in the past pressed over the bordering lands, while the Ottomans have very recently conquered Nicomedia. The control over the Southern Balkans is also very fractioned, with a branch of the Anjou ruling over Albania, the Despotate of Epirus under the nominal rule of Byzantium as a vassal, Athens, Neopatria and Salona as vassals of the Aragonese Kings of Sicily, Anjou protectorates over Achaia and Naxos, and only nominal Byzantine control over Southern Morea. It’s also noticeable the presence of the Republics of Venice and Genoa, which control several outposts over the Adriatic and Aegean Seas. A final note: in previous maps, Moldavia was shown in the map, but we’ve removed it from it, and it will most likely spawn through a chain of events in the 1340s.

Dynasties:
View attachment 1158528
The House of Anjou rules over Naples, Hungary, Albania, Achaia, and Cephalonia; they’re truly invested in their push for supremacy over the region. Apart from that, each country is ruled by different dynasties, except for Athens and Neopatria, ruled by the House of Aragón-Barcelona.

Locations:
View attachment 1158264

Spoiler: Detailed Locations Maps

View attachment 1158265
View attachment 1158266
View attachment 1158267

This week we’re posting the general map of the region, along with some more detailed maps, that can be seen if you click on the spoiler button. A starting comment is that the location density of Hungary is noticeably not very high; the reason is that it was one of the first European maps that we made, and we based it upon the historical counties. Therefore, I’m already saying in advance that this will be an area that we want to give more density when we do the review of the region; any help regarding that is welcome. Apart from that, you may notice on the more detailed maps that Crete appears in one, while not being present in the previous one; because of the zooming, the island will appear next week along with Cyprus, but I wanted to make an early sneak peek of the locations, given that is possible with this closer zoom level. Apart from that, I’m also saying in advance that we will make an important review of the Aegean Islands, so do not take them as a reference for anything, please.

Provinces:
View attachment 1158268
Provinces! Nothing outstanding to be commented on here; as usual, we’re open to any feedback regarding them.

Terrain:
View attachment 1158270
View attachment 1158271
View attachment 1158272
Terrain! The climate of the region is mostly divided between Continental and Mediterranean, with some warmer and some colder regions. Regarding the topography, the Carpathian mountains are famously important and strategic, while the Balkans are a quite hilly and mountainous region, which is also greatly covered by woods and forests.

Cultures:
View attachment 1158273
Here comes the fun part of the DD: The cultural division of the Balkans! A few comments:

1. Hungary is full of different minorities. Transylvania, especially, is an interesting place: there we have a mix of ‘Hungarians’, ‘Transylvanians’ (which are the Romanian-speaking inhabitants of the region), ‘Transylvanian Germans’, and ‘Szekely’ people.
2. We have divided the Southern Slavic-speaking region into their dialectal families of Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian.
3. The Southern Balkans are mostly divided among Bulgarian, Albanian, and Greek cultures.
4. We’re also portraying plenty of other cultures, such as Dalmatians, Aromanians, Sclavenes, Arvanites, Cumans, Jasz, or Ashkenazi and Romanyoti Jews.

Religions:
View attachment 1158274
This one is also interesting. Apart from the divide between Western Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, we have the Krstjani in Bosnia, Bogomils (the pink stripes both in Bosnia and Macedonia), and Paulicians in Thrace. The Jewish populations do not pass the threshold percentage to appear on the map, but there are plenty of communities across the region.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1158275
The materials of the region. Something very noticeable is the richness of minerals, with plenty of Iron, Copper, Tin, Lead, Gold, and Silver. Specifically, Slovakia is very rich, and you definitely want more settlers to migrate to the region, and exploit its resources. The region is also very rich in agricultural resources, as you can see.

Markets:
View attachment 1158276
The region is mostly divided among four markets: Venice, Pest, Ragusa and Constantinople.

Country and Location population:
View attachment 1158277

Spoiler: Detailed Population Maps

View attachment 1158278
View attachment 1158279
View attachment 1158280

Country and location population (which I’ve also sub-divided, and is under the Spoiler button).

And that’s all of today! I hope that you find the region interesting; we certainly think that it is. Next week we will go further south, and we will take a look at the Syrian Levant and Egypt. Cheers!

What are the brown stripes in Bosnia

 

[TomislavAddai]

What about the Tsakoanians?
Their home should definitely be in the Ástros in the Peloppnese, and they should also be present in Gonen (owned by the Karasids). Tsakonian is a distinct Hellenic language, that developped from the Doric dialect rather than from Koiné

 

[Culminated]

Prešov and other surrounding locations are definitely not in mountains. Look at an elevation map of Slovakia. It would be hills. I can't see the percentages of Slovakian population on the map, but it looks relatively accurate. I think that at this time southern Slovakia would still have Slovakians as the majority and Hungarians became a majority at a later date though. They moved there slowly throughout the centuries and assimilated Slovakians. I would revisit this topic in your research but be careful with using Hungarian sources as they tend to be filled with propaganda. There are many more mistakes on this map but other users pointed that out already.

 

[stefffff1871]

considering i see transylvanian germans, is it possible to create own cultures? like german-silesian historically? or other cultures when i conquer other parts of the world that would have developed their own cultures?
for example if i conquer Bohemia as a german nation, it should be possible to create sth like german-bohemian or so

 

[vikinglord]

Apologies for the long post, I have tried to structure it in a readable manner. Here are my suggestions regarding Bulgaria and the surrounding territories:



Suggestions for spelling changes (generally all of the cases of “j” should be replaced with “y” as per the rules of transcribing Bulgarian:

Boruj->Boruy

Lardeja->Lardeya



Suggestions for naming changes:

Tarnovo->Tarnovgrad

Vidin (the name is a corruption of the original under Turkish influence)->Bdin

Blagoevgrad (named after the founder of the communist party and also the city didn’t really exist in the middle ages->Stob (a nearby location which used to be a city with significance)

Smolyan (named in the 20th century and was formed as an amalgamation of several villages)->Dyovlen (different city nearby with significance for the age)

Haskovo (name is most likely in some way formed from Turkish and its name in the middle ages in unknown)->Mezek (a big fortress nearby)

Sofia-Sredets

Vratsa->Vratitsa

Razgrad->Hrazgrad

Targoviste->Kosovo or Misionis

Tulcea->Tulitsa

Pangalia->Konstantsa (different city, but way more important)

Hârşova->Harsovo

Dobruja province->Dobrudzha or Karvuna

Tarnovo province->Tarnovgrad

Rhodopes province->Rodopi

Vidin province->Bdin

Shopluk province (the -luk ending is Turkish in origin)->Shopsko

Silistra province (an anachronism at that time)->Drastar



Suggestions for Bulgarian names for some of the locations outside Bulgaria:

Kilkis->Kukush

Serres->Syar

Xanthia->Ksanti

Edessa->Voden

Florina->Lerin

Komotini->Kumutsina

Adrianople->Odrin

Saranta Ekklistes->Lozengrad

Veria->Ber

Kastoria->Kostur

Thessaloniki->Solun

Constantinople->Tsarigrad (don’t forget the “i”, it’s not Tsargrad, that would be Russian)

Kočani->Kochani

Strumica->Strumitsa

Štip->Shtip

Skopje->Skopie

Bitola->Bitolya

Kitsabis->Kichevo

Tetovo->Htetovo

Dupnitsa -> Dubnitsa

Zemlungrad->Zemlangrad or Zemlengrad

Prokuplje->Prokuple

Vranje->Vranya

Svrljg->Svarlig

Kozelj->Kozel

Višesav->Vishesav

Niš->Nish

(and so on, all names with “š” should have “sh”, if owned by Bulgaria, “č” and “ć” should be “ch” and “j” should be “y”. “C” in other south Slavic languages should be transcribed as “ts” if owned by Bulgaria)

Giurgiu->Yorgovo

Zimnicea->Zimnitsa

Turnu Magurele->Malak Nikopol or Holavnik

Braila->Braila (without the a with dash)

(I hope other forumites can help here with the Slavic and Bulgarian names for the locations in Wallachia since it was ruled for a few hundred years by Bulgaria, but the exact forms of the toponomy that was used at the time is hard to find)



Suggestions for new locations:

Nesebar should be added, taking the northern part of Anhialo and the southern part of Varna and it should produce wine.

Preslav should be added between Targoviste and Shumen.

Perperek/Perperak east of Smolyan west of Haskovo.

Pernik west of Sofia and east of Zemlungrad.


View attachment 1159058

Suggestions for border changes:

Višesav, Kozelj and Svrljg and the whole Vidin province should belong to Bulgaria or to a despotate of Vidin (if it is decided to place it on the map on the starting date) that would establish the historical border between Bulgaria and Hungary from which Hungary invaded Bulgaria more than once.


EDIT: Suggestions for impassable terrain:

Generally, there should be a lot more impassable locations between the Danube plain in Northern Bulgaria and the southern land due to the Balkan mountains. More like the map of Imperator: Rome, although the mountain passess were even less than the map suggested there. These mountain passess were crucial even up to the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878, so they should not be underestimated. Ideally there should be no more than 4 or 5 to simulate the reality of the terrain. As other people mentioned the "Hills" of central Bulgaria should be mountains.
I understand however that the addition of more impassable terrain can be unwanted from a gameplay perspective. If @Pavía @Johan of anyone else could share their view on the topic it would be helpful.


Suggestions for the Bulgarian dynasty:

It should not be Sratsimir but rather Shishmanovtsi or Shishman.



Suggestions for culture:

The locations in the provinces of Niš, Braničevo, Vidin and Shopluk (and possibly Toplica and Kosovo) should realistically have Bulgarian culture instead of Serbian as those locations formed part of the first and second Bulgarian tsardoms from the 800s up until the 1250s. These lands only came under Serbian influence since the 1250s (given the genesis of the Serbian state more to the west in Raska) and only gradually from west to east. Thus the whole of in the whole of Vidin, Shopluk and Niš there should be little Serbian culture present. Braničevo, Toplica and Kosovo should have some Bulgarian minorities.

Just to clarify and ward off any potential backlash against this, I should mention that the languages back then were very close and show only initial signs of differing evolution. On top of that both cultures are majority Orthodox and the local Slavs would easily assimilate and identify with the state that rules them. As such (and with the caveat of not knowing how culture works in Project Ceasar) I propose that these Bulgarian pops in these provinces should be able to assimilate to Serbian should Serbia be able to hold these lands longer than it did historically and vice-versa, should Serbian pops fall under Bulgaria they should be able to be assimilated in a century and half to two centuries. This should be able to simulate how cities such as Belgrade became Serbian in culture despite being ruled for centuries by Bulgaria.

Following up on my suggestions, the impassable terrain map should look something like this:

The possible crossings to the east of Bulgaria should be limited to two: one between Sliven and the current location of Targovishte and between Varna and what I have proposed to be Nesebar.

 

[Kimudena]

Chilia port should be under Byzantine / Genoa control

Kiliia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Ivio]

First of all why croatia on the map is just in the sea region? If you gona put Croatia on the map then give it Slavonia and Zagreb regions as well, no sense in just giving it sea region.
Second Bosnians did not exist in 1337. Bosniaks are simply Croats and Serbs that acepted muslim religion. Untill turkish conquest of Serbia Bosnia was majority Croat with river of Drina serving as natural border between western roman empire / eastern roman empire and later on as border between chatolicisam and orthodoxy. Chatolic south slavs are croats, orthodox south slavs are serbs. Serbs will populate bosnia in later ages when they run from ottomans to western parts.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Oh, I know how it all started with some of the early pre-tinto map posts, still, the atmosphere is just a bit ridiculous and the "how could you do this pdx... how could you" attitude like this is some grand insult towards them personally all feels incredibly sad and even a bit pathetic. The map was just posted, and it has been made clear many times that map changes are for the tinto map posts, all the posts are great, but it all is coming across extremely emotional and personal for a game that was said to be in development and is very clearly being worked on.

Yeah I feel like I've seen the list of Paradox's injustices against Romanians about twenty times today.

if you have Aromanians and Istro-Romanians you might as well ad Megleno-Romanians

Were they that distinct from Aromanians back then? It seems to me that they have diverged due to a rather long isolation. Plus they are a one province culture.

 

[Antimonum]

By the way, I think this is the Tinto Maps with fewer negative reactions, and the feedback so far is great, even if the community was expecting some Balkanic mayhem. I'll be out for a few days from now, so expect less replies from my end, but we'll keep reading you. Cheers!

I think we will save the mayhem for the game.

 

[dragonluke]

Were they that distinct from Aromanians back then? It seems to me that they have diverged due to a rather long isolation. Plus they are a one province culture.

I mean you had a bunch of posts about them getting turkey's culture wrong so I don't see a reason to complain about us having complaints.
Either way I don't know exactly when Megleno-romanians became a unique culture(and I doubt anybody does), but I don't see any particular reason for them not to be in the game. Plus don't think they'd be a one province culture, seeing that they exist in parts of Greece too, and paradox has a added a bunch of small cultures already, I don't see why one more would be bad

 

[hellfirematt]

One thing I see missing is Greek silk production. Messenia and the region around Leuktron was historically the centre of silk production in the Peloponnese from the 13th Century (becoming a major industry in the city of Kalamata by the 17th Century), and Boeotia (around Thibai and Livadeia) was another centre of silk production though the Catalans might have destroyed that by 1337.

I have found this article on Theban silk production which mentions suggests that it's skilled weavers were responsible for Theban silk being better than that made by other cities like Corinth, though it doesn't mention the state of the industry after the 12th Century: https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...lk_industry_a_hypothetical_reconstruction.pdf

 

[eddin2]

First of all why croatia on the map is just in the sea region? If you gona put Croatia on the map then give it Slavonia and Zagreb regions as well, no sense in just giving it sea region.
Second Bosnians did not exist in 1337. Bosniaks are simply Croats and Serbs that acepted muslim religion. Untill turkish conquest of Serbia Bosnia was majority Croat with river of Drina serving as natural border between western roman empire / eastern roman empire and later on as border between chatolicisam and orthodoxy. Chatolic south slavs are croats, orthodox south slavs are serbs. Serbs will populate bosnia in later ages when they run from ottomans to western parts.

Stop with nationalistic nonsense, Bosnia was never majority Croat, Bosnian rulers never considered themselves as Croats.

 

[Kimii003]

I made account jut for this.

Completely disagree about Slavic division.

First Bulgarian were minority in lands they conquered and then they got assimilated with culture they conquered so they should be also considered southern Slavic-speaking culture if not you should add at least one of many South Slavic tribes and make then majority on that territory as they were.

Second (and more important for me) is Bosnian as culture shouldn't exist, Bosnia was one of first Serbian lands and there were many rulers, dynasty Kotromanić is Serbian dynasty and we have Stefan Tvrtko I Kotromanić who got crowned on grave of Serbian saint Sava as Serbian King of Serbian lands. Idea for Bosnian as a language will appear century or few later.


I have exam coming up in few days so I couldn't read all my books on it but I just stole history book for Serbian 3rd grade of highschool from my lil sis (I know I stole it like I am some Romanian/Vlach not Wallachian) just to check things out about Tvrtko. I know only one book for highschoolers probably isn't enough of source for you guys to change anything but please just chek it few more times.

P.S. I forgot to say collors are nice (I don't like them gradually paleing towards middle of the country but I'll get used to it) BUT MAPS LOOOK FLAT EXTREMELY FLAT even impassible terrains look flat. Will some texture be added like I don't know maybe some completely unrelated game EUIV or we need to be happy with this flat map.