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Tinto Talks #12 - 15th of May

Welcome to another Tinto Talks, where we delve into the details of the most top-secret project ever made.

This week we talk about something that is rather new to our GSG, and that is the concept of international organizations. Now this may sound like an anachronistic term, and when you read further in this Tinto Talks, you’ll go “but you already have this in previous games”. Yes, we did have some hard-coded systems in previous games, like the Holy Roman Empire, but what we have here in Project Caesar is a completely dynamic system, 100% scriptable and extendable for modders, which allows for many of these, and with far more flavor.

What is an international organization? Well, at its heart is a group of countries that share some common things, and then quite a few attributes that can be defined for them. The instruction file right now is 140 lines long, and it will keep growing.

Some examples of things that an IO can have are the following.
  • If it has a leader or not, and if the leader is a character or a country.
  • If it's unique or there can be multiples of it.
  • If locations can be owned by it or not.
  • Member benefits or penalties.
  • Laws and Policies it can have.
  • Special statuses inside the organization
  • How members will behave during wars
  • And dozens more unique attributes.
Membership in some of these can take a diplomatic relations slot.

As we continue our development of this game, we keep adding more of these, adding more unique flavor to the game.

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We have “control-groups” like every PDS game has had since EU1, and Stellaris added icons for quick selects… The one for Project Caesar can be pretty much anything in the game, and if you start as a member of an organization, you get a control group for it from the start.

Common Organizations
Let's take a look at some of the generic ones, some of these have been hard-coded systems in previous GSGs, and these are not unique organizations in a campaign, but can exist in multiple instances.
Coalitions
These can be created, with a country as a target, when the target has an aggressive expansion beyond a certain threshold.
Unions
This is a sort of defensive alliance between countries that share the same ruler. They may or may not have different levels of integration.

There are a few others like this, including defensive leagues and tribal federations.


Religious Organizations

Catholic Church
Every country in the world that is part of the Catholic faith is a part of this organization. They have issues that the cardinals vote on, and being a member has implications and restrictions. Of course, this has the added benefit of having Catholic pops in Catholic countries paying a tithe to the Church, which eventually finds its way into the Papacy.

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One reason to go Lutheran?

Crusades & Jihads
These are temporary international organizations that will be created when a Crusade or Jihad is called. They have a target set and act like an alliance against that country.

Autocephalous Patriarchates
Meaning self-headed, an Autocephalous Patriarchate is a metropolitan bishop in the Eastern Christian confessions which acts independently and does not depend on or answer to any other hierarchically superior church authority. The different patriarchates then have their own synods of bishops to decide upon anything affecting their own religious jurisdiction.


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WiP grahics etc.

There are many of these, for Orthodox, Miaphysite, and other Eastern Christian confessions.

There are many more, some other religions have a central organization, and others have fragmented ones.


Specific Organization
There are also a fair amount of completely unique and flavorful organizations.

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What's this then?

Tatar Yoke
The Tatar Yoke consists of various principalities of Eastern Europe that are subject to Tatar Rule following their invasion in the 13th century. The most prominent of rulers is awarded the title of Grand Prince, and is tasked with collecting tribute from the other tributaries on behalf of the Golden Horde Khan.

Middle Kingdom
The Middle Kingdom is the meaning of China and has been considered the cultural center of East Asia since Antiquity.

This organization is led by the Huángdì, the Emperor of China, who has a number of Fēng Chén, akin to vassals or tributaries, that can be promoted to Celestial Governors, equivalent to the Secretariats that the Yuán dynasty used in the administrative organization of their empire. Its members have a unique societal value, Sinicized vs Unsinicized, and there’s a Tribute system that determines how much Celestial Authority the Huángdì gets, which is used to enforce Laws and Decrees.

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The Tribute system is a system where the Huángdì sends gold to the other nations in the Middle Kingdom, depending on their size.

Holy Roman Empire
The glory of the ancient Roman Empire lives in the memory of all in Europe, Charlemagne was crowned Roman Emperor, but it was not until the coronation of Otto the Great that the current Holy Roman Empire was born, once again recovering the ambitions of a revived and unified European Empire.

This organization, of course led by an Emperor, has different statuses for countries like secular and religious electors, secular princes, free cities, and imperial prelates. It has laws that impact the organization and its members, the most important at the early game being the Golden Bull, which is a must to get approved in order to further develop the institutions of the Empire.

There are others in the game at the moment, like the Shogunate, the High Kingship of Ireland, and many more, as the system is very flexible to use.

Next week we will talk about what Religions we have in the game.
 
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Countries does not ALWAYS have a ruler.

and if its character, if that character dies, a new leader has to be picked etc..

In real life.. USA is always the leader of NATO, even though the ruler of USA has switched quite a few times since 1945

Are you referencing interregnum periods or something else?

Say if an European king died in the early period of the game, most likely than not he would be succeeded by his eldest son, but that wasn't a given nor did it happened instantly, specially if it meant to give the crown to an infant or a female heir. Do you intend to simulate this in some way?
 
Because somewhere the game is gonna need a generic tooltip explaining all these things alongside coalitions and unions and the like, and it has to call them something.
To what end? Why would they need to talk about the Catholic Church with respect to a Coalition, or the Shogunate, or the Tatar yoke? Why do these need to exist in a generic tooltip.

The only thing common among them 'generically' is that it uses some of the same bits of code and script logic. All of these things are bespoke scripts that may have nothing in common with the rest of the set. I can understand having an out-of-game name for it but there is no need for an in-game generic name.
 
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A small note regarding the orthodox church of Georgia.

The seat of the Patriarchate should be Mtskheta rather than Tbilisi.

But maybe you guys don't have Mtskheta as a separate location.

Also this did happen later on, but when the kingdom split into different petty kingdoms and principalities, western Georgia kinda sorta had its own patriarchate, mostly based in Kutaisi, but that was an on and off thing as far as I know.
 
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I've been thinking, with the fact that PU's will work with the IO system, does that mean that we can recreate the irl thingy where brandenburg a subject of the emperor and an elector was "in pu" with prussia, a polish subject? or this sort of two overlord stuff still is impossible?
I imagine it must be the cast that that can happen. Otherwise, how would you recreate the Burgundian State? If PC Burgundy was just a vassal of France with nothing else going on, I think the people would riot.
 
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That looks like a disgustingly large amount of calculation that will need to be done, it's not gonna run like late game hoi4 is it?
 
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What happens to e.g. the High Kingship of Ireland when the whole of Ireland is controlled by England/GB, will it be disbanded, held by the English monarch, become defunct?


International Organizations are not eternal and can disappear for a variety of reasons. Some will fail as soon as there is no valid leader country, whereas others are more aspirational or cultural in nature and don't necessarily need a leader to still exist in the minds of its members.

The High Kingship of Ireland falls under the latter; membership (and therefore leadership) is limited to specific kinds of country with a capital in Ireland and it will persist as long as it has members.

So England can theoretically become the High King if it manages to jump through hoops to become a valid member beforehand, but if it doesn't then the International Organization will simply fall out of existence once all its member countries become extinct.

That said its exact features are still in development so the rules are subject to change.
 
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A small note regarding the orthodox church of Georgia.

The seat of the Patriarchate should be Mtskheta rather than Tbilisi.

But maybe you guys don't have Mtskheta as a separate location.

Also this did happen later on, but when the kingdom split into different petty kingdoms and principalities, western Georgia kinda sorta had its own patriarchate, mostly based in Kutaisi, but that was an on and off thing as far as I know.
Untitled.png

That... might be Mtskheta above Tblisi? Hard to tell.
 
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Why are so many HRE tags shown as grey, same as non-HRE tags like France? Does this mean those tags aren’t in the HRE despite holding territory in it (Flanders is an obvious example of this) or is something else going on, them all being subjects for example?
 
Hope i'm not too late for this, looking amazing so far!
Just wanted to give my extremely nitpicky two cents on the Western Liguria situation
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1) Carretto should be named Finale, as that was the name of the Marquisate (and its capital after the independence of Savona in 1191), Carretto was merely the name of its ruling dinasty until its sale to Spain in 1602.
2) Western Liguria was more fragmented than shown, with at least Savona (independent until 1528) and Noli (1797) and *maybe* Albenga (1355 at the latest, potentially before start date, couldn't find when the Finalese took over yet)
3) Noli might be too small to be represented, but Savona should be represented in game as it was the largest and most important city in this half of the region and a continunous thorn in the side to the Genoese.
Savona was past its territorial peak by now (after a defeat to Genoa in 1251), but was still wealthy and would reach its wealthiest in the late 1400s and early 1500s during the reign of Sixtus IV and Julius II, two Popes from Savona who invested heavily in the city. It was a classic Italian Free Comune with Consuls and Podestàs ruling depending on the period. With a brief Fregoso family Signoria in the mid 1400s.
Savona's favourite hobby was hotboxing the Genoese IRL with various alliances, including the Milanese (the Naval Arsenal of the city was called Arsenale Visconteo, funded by them) and later the French.
The French defeat in Pavia would doom Savona, left alone and conquered in 1528 which would lead to the destruction of most of the city and the interrment of the port and the end of its relevance until Napoleon

Just my wee nitpick, keep up the good work lads!
 
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Will the Thirteen Colonies be an organization?

What about the United States? This might be a good way to model, say, the South trying to break off to form a separate union...
 
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I swear, all I can think about at work today is the English King attacking one of the provinces of the High Kingship of Ireland, just to kick the hornets nest and have an Irish swarm of loyal clansmen descending from all Irish territories to attack the Pale.

Imagine the final battle scene of the Avengers Endgame when they're about to fight Thanos, but everyone is wearing green kilts and throwing potatoes. And there is a random bagpipes player in the background.
 
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Wait a minute...

We also have non-landed tags, that seem to be able to at some level be "organized" around a location.

This means that not only can I create the IOs to represent all the diocese of the Catholic Church... but I can make every single bishop and archbishop into their own landless tags centered around each diocese, with the money from tithes funneling into that landless tag, which can be a vassal of the ecclesiastical province run by the archbishop, which can be a direct vassal of the Pope. Then that landless diocese tag can invest those funds into various church-related buildings in the provinces, while also part of that money funnel upwards to the archbishop, and then from the archbishop to the Pope.

You'd even be able to play as that bishopric! And deal with the wrath of the Reformation as a considerably more existential crisis as compared to playing some landed tag in the HRE!

I am totally invested in making this a day 1 mod if given the chance.
 
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So to sum up the HRE colour codes

Purple strip - Location is part of HRE
Dark Green - Country is a member of HRE
Dark Blue - Country / Country leader? is an Elector
Light Green - Country is a Free City
Orange - Countries government is a peasantry republic and a member of HRE
Light Blue - Country leader is the leader of the HRE? - In this case the 4 light blue countries are in competition with each other?

Is there also a yellow colour? I can't tell if that is the same as an unselected country
 
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If it costs 1 slot or 6.5 capacity doesn't matter in the end.. its a simple change, and we are not sure which one we want atm.
Wouldn't it be better if having many diplomatic relations in game would require much more money? Diplo slots are abstract concept, not based in reality.

Besides, without monarch points, what would be the malus of having more diplomatic relations than your current capacity?
 
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International Organizations are not eternal and can disappear for a variety of reasons. Some will fail as soon as there is no valid leader country, whereas others are more aspirational or cultural in nature and don't necessarily need a leader to still exist in the minds of its members.

The High Kingship of Ireland falls under the latter; membership (and therefore leadership) is limited to specific kinds of country with a capital in Ireland and it will persist as long as it has members.

So England can theoretically become the High King if it manages to jump through hoops to become a valid member beforehand, but if it doesn't then the International Organization will simply fall out of existence once all its member countries become extinct.

That said its exact features are still in development so the rules are subject to change.

Is this integrated into things like rebellions?

Like for example under a British controlled Ireland, can all of Ireland revolt and crown someone the High King of Ireland if unrest has risen to a certain extent?
 
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