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Tinto Talks #6 - April 3rd, 2024

Welcome to the sixth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design and features of our not yet announced game, with the codename ‘Project Caesar’.

Hey, before jumping into todays topic, I would like to show something very fresh out of the oven, based on your feedback last week. This is why we are doing these Tinto Talks, to make Project Caesar your game as much as ours...

1712136748556.png




Today we will delve into three concepts that are rather new to our games, but first, we’ll talk about locations a bit more.

Not every location on the map is the same, especially not in a game of such scope as Project Caesar. By default, every ownable land location is a rural settlement, but there are two “upgrades” to it that can be done. First, you can find a town in a location, which allows you to increase the population capacity of the location and allows for a completely different set of buildings than a rural settlement. Finally, you can grant city rights to a town, which allows for even further advantages. Now you may wonder, why don’t I make every location into cities? Besides the cost and the population requirement, there is also the drawback that each of them tend to reduce your food production, while also adding more nobles, clergy and lots of burghers to your country.

Stockholm, Dublin and Belgrade are examples of towns at the start of the game, while cities include places like Beijing, Alexandria and Paris.

EaMX4E1GNzy0P9fHqbFWuoyX3mTUo0i8He3V3QHENQ5s7GCgU534Pg30YtA5_9AeZZn1wTdCFUc1n5Pl88qbfm1YOW3BsFDQQkRjvlDWr2ydETNKCk9_3zNeRVQ8YQuznfJXxTdsIgZLE8GBuecztX0

Here you can see the control that Sweden currently has.

Control
Every location that you own has a control value, which is primarily determined by the proximity it has to the capital, or another source of authority in your country. There are only a few things that can increase it above the proximity impact, but many things that can decrease it further.

This is probably the most important value you have, as it determines how much value you can get out of a location, as it directly impacts how much you can tax the population in that location, and the amount of levies they will contribute when called. A lack of control, reduces the crown power you gain from its population, while also reduces the potential manpower and sailors you can get, and weakens the market attraction of your own markets, making them likelier to belong to foreign markets if they have too low control.


1712141069161.png


Proximity
So what is proximity? It is basically a distance to capital value, where traveling on the open sea is extremely costly. Proximity is costly over land, but along coastlines where you have a high maritime presence you can keep a high proximity much further. Tracing proximity along a major river reduces the proximity cost a fair bit, and if you build a road network that will further reduce the proximity costs.

There are buildings that you can build, like a Bailiff that will act as a smaller proximity source, but that has the slight drawback of adding more nobles to the location, and with a cost in food for them.

Maritime Presence
In every coastal location around your locations, or where you have special buildings, you have a maritime presence. This is slowly built up over time based on your ports and other buildings you have in adjacent locations. Placing a navy in the location helps improve it quicker, but blockades and pirates will decrease it quickly, making it absolutely vital to protect your coastlines in a war, or you’ll suffer the consequences for a long time.

As mentioned earlier, the maritime presence impacts the proximity calculations, but it also impacts the power of your merchants in the market the seazone is a part of.

LkfBoN7Vx3MIHx2sSqcN7jYlJFbRYR6EzczGu3xlsixWZ-jSIxbGI_cC2i64-13G3SrtT0wVZ8XeXZDI8pXnpPlUBw2ZGPmYVqwoVfXEsu1kkQf3TAia9shMDkEf6oE83ihwG2VtA_CCydlJeXuaULM


Stay tuned, next week we’ll be doing an overview of the economy system, which has quite a lot of new features, as well as features from older games.
 
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Welcome to the sixth Tinto Talks, where we talk about the design and features of our not yet announced game, with the codename ‘Project Caesar’.

Hey, before jumping into todays topic, I would like to show something very fresh out of the oven, based on your feedback last week. This is why we are doing these Tinto Talks, to make Project Caesar your game as much as ours...

View attachment 1110176



Today we will delve into three concepts that are rather new to our games, but first, we’ll talk about locations a bit more.

Not every location on the map is the same, especially not in a game of such scope as Project Caesar. By default, every ownable land location is a rural settlement, but there are two “upgrades” to it that can be done. First, you can find a town in a location, which allows you to increase the population capacity of the location and allows for a completely different set of buildings than a rural settlement. Finally, you can grant city rights to a town, which allows for even further advantages. Now you may wonder, why don’t I make every location into cities? Besides the cost and the population requirement, there is also the drawback that each of them tend to reduce your food production, while also adding more nobles, clergy and lots of burghers to your country.

Stockholm, Dublin and Belgrade are examples of towns at the start of the game, while cities include places like Beijing, Alexandria and Paris.

EaMX4E1GNzy0P9fHqbFWuoyX3mTUo0i8He3V3QHENQ5s7GCgU534Pg30YtA5_9AeZZn1wTdCFUc1n5Pl88qbfm1YOW3BsFDQQkRjvlDWr2ydETNKCk9_3zNeRVQ8YQuznfJXxTdsIgZLE8GBuecztX0

Here you can see the control that Sweden currently has.

Control
Every location that you own has a control value, which is primarily determined by the proximity it has to the capital, or another source of authority in your country. There are only a few things that can increase it above the proximity impact, but many things that can decrease it further.

This is probably the most important value you have, as it determines how much value you can get out of a location, as it directly impacts how much you can tax the population in that location, and the amount of levies they will contribute when called. A lack of control, reduces the crown power you gain from its population, while also reduces the potential manpower and sailors you can get, and weakens the market attraction of your own markets, making them likelier to belong to foreign markets if they have too low control.


View attachment 1110187

Proximity
So what is proximity? It is basically a distance to capital value, where traveling on the open sea is extremely costly. Proximity is costly over land, but along coastlines where you have a high maritime presence you can keep a high proximity much further. Tracing proximity along a major river reduces the proximity cost a fair bit, and if you build a road network that will further reduce the proximity costs.

There are buildings that you can build, like a Bailiff that will act as a smaller proximity source, but that has the slight drawback of adding more nobles to the location, and with a cost in food for them.

Maritime Presence
In every coastal location around your locations, or where you have special buildings, you have a maritime presence. This is slowly built up over time based on your ports and other buildings you have in adjacent locations. Placing a navy in the location helps improve it quicker, but blockades and pirates will decrease it quickly, making it absolutely vital to protect your coastlines in a war, or you’ll suffer the consequences for a long time.

As mentioned earlier, the maritime presence impacts the proximity calculations, but it also impacts the power of your merchants in the market the seazone is a part of.

LkfBoN7Vx3MIHx2sSqcN7jYlJFbRYR6EzczGu3xlsixWZ-jSIxbGI_cC2i64-13G3SrtT0wVZ8XeXZDI8pXnpPlUBw2ZGPmYVqwoVfXEsu1kkQf3TAia9shMDkEf6oE83ihwG2VtA_CCydlJeXuaULM


Stay tuned, next week we’ll be doing an overview of the economy system, which has quite a lot of new features, as well as features from older games.
Are ports a building ? Can we have locations without ports (ie when some landlocked countries first colonize coastal areas, like Siberia) until we build them ?
 
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Jews would fall under the Dhimmi estate in Muslim nations. And in Christian nations they never held significant political sway to be considered an Estate of the Realm.
Jews in Spain had considerable influence. Before the expulsion, the commoner population were often critical of them, but Kings would protect them because of the favors and financing they could provide. They had their own system of justice, illegally and outside the Kingdom's law enforcement, with physical removal services. They would often hold positions of power too.

An example is the case of José Pichón, the chief Accountant in the Kingdom of Castille, named in 1369. He would be found stealing public money which would be scandalous to rival Jews and of course, Christians. Only after being denounced by other Jews, José Pichón was imprisoned by order of King Henry II, from which he was freed by paying 40,000 doubloons. After paying he was released and restored to his duties like nothing happened. When King Enrique died in 1379, the new king was crowned in Burgos, where José Pichón went like many other prominent Jews, since the auction of royal taxes would also take place there.

These power games eventually led to huge antagonism from the commoners which ultimately led to the "Massacre of 1391" (now called a progrom). You can read further on Wikipedia. Conflicts like this kept occurring until eventually the Spanish crown decided to stop protecting them from popular wrath and accept the requested expulsion.

I do think they should be an estate.
 
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I believe he said the numbers are not at all balanced yet.
Yes but my point is not about numbers values per say its about ui

Now I know ui is also very much placeholder but better make a comment they already know than never.

The thing is that
1. They show Control In green, so you would think increasing it is good.
But manpower is red, so you would think it is not good, and because it is opposite color of Control, you would think increasing control decrease manpower.
And actually I'd doe's because they count it as a decreasing penalty, while it could be shown as increasing bonus from 0.
2. That is actually how they show it for levy, as a increasing bonus from 0?
Like if total is 100, control + remaining =100
They show for manpower 100 - control (remaining), but for levy they show control

So if levy is supposed to increase when manpower increase that's a problem, if that's opposite then fine for point 2 but point 1 still stand


I hope its clearer
 
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I think that the Dhimmi estate falls short of this criteria. Since Dhimmi's would be accessible to all/most of the Muslim countries, there would be no need to play all the Muslim countries
Being opposed to the addition of the Dhimmi for this reason makes absolutely no sense. The Dhimmi does not retract from the replayability of Muslim tags. The inclusion of the Dhimmi should therefore not affect your wish to play one Muslim tag after another negatively. It does however add some differentiation from Christian tags, which does fit the quote you provided quite well.
 
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Awesome post, I've been following these for a while now and decided to scrounge up my old account credentials in order to post, specially since this post has talked a little bit about maritime presence. I wanted to ask, in the hopes I get a response: what are the plans- if you can share them, to represent early navigations? Portugal starts very early on, making landfall in the islands of Azores in 1418. That said, both the Azores and the Canary islands had been spotted by Italian (Genoese specifically) sailors as early as 1338! While EU4 represents the exploratory voyages of the 15th and 16th centuries well enough, I have hope that Project Caesar might expand a little more on this very exciting time period!
 
Will you be able to take from peace deals the smallest location type (like taking the single tile of Rome in imperator) or you have to take the whole state (like in hoi4 or imperator itself)? And will peace deals be like in victoria III or more similar to eu4?
 
Being opposed to the addition of the Dhimmi for this reason makes absolutely no sense. The Dhimmi does not retract from the replayability of Muslim tags. The inclusion of the Dhimmi should therefore not affect your wish to play one Muslim tag after another negatively. It does however add some differentiation from Christian tags, which does fit the quote you provided quite well.

Well, actually... there should be the equivalent in at least some Christian tags at the start of the game. Castilla, Aragón, looking at you with the moriscos. :p
 
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Jews in Spain had considerable influence. Before the expulsion, the commoner population were often critical of them, but Kings would protect them because of the favors and financing they could provide. They had their own system of justice, illegally and outside the Kingdom's law enforcement, with physical removal services. They would often hold positions of power too.

An example is the case of José Pichón, the chief Accountant in the Kingdom of Castille, named in 1369. He would be found stealing public money which would be scandalous to rival Jews and of course, Christians. Only after being denounced by other Jews, José Pichón was imprisoned by order of King Henry II, from which he was freed by paying 40,000 doubloons. After paying he was released and restored to his duties like nothing happened. When King Enrique died in 1379, the new king was crowned in Burgos, where José Pichón went like many other prominent Jews, since the auction of royal taxes would also take place there.

These power games eventually led to huge antagonism from the commoners which ultimately led to the "Massacre of 1391" (now called a progrom). You can read further on Wikipedia. Conflicts like this kept occurring until eventually the Spanish crown decided to stop protecting them from popular wrath and accept the requested expulsion.

I do think they should be an estate.
Ironic that you'd mention José Pichón when Henry II only named him contador major because of his financial straits.

This is the same king who imposed a war contribution of 20,000 gold doubloons on the Jews of Toledo, and issued an order to take them all prisoner, give them neither food nor drink, and to then sell all of their property if they still refused to raise the sum demanded of them. The same King who ordered all Jews within his realm to wear the now infamous yellow badge and who before his death forbade all Jews from holding public office.

Not exactly a great example of Jews being a respected and accepted political force in Iberian politics.
 
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Can we now dispense calling it "Project Caesar" the joke is starting to wear off on me ;)
 
Ironic that you'd mention José Pichón when Henry II only named him contador major because of his financial straits.

This is the same king who imposed a war contribution of 20,000 gold doubloons on the Jews of Toledo, and issued an order to take them all prisoner, give them neither food nor drink, and to then sell all of their property if they still refused to raise the sum demanded of them. The same King who ordered all Jews within his realm to wear the now infamous yellow badge and who before his death forbade all Jews from holding public office.

Not exactly a great example of Jews being a respected and accepted political force in Iberian politics.
Interesting. Some of this I ignored. Wouldn't this make them an even more interesting estate though? Or would you think the pop differentiation is enough to simulate the intergroup conflicts of that era?
 
Will colonization be more automatic like Victoria 3 or more deliberate and micro managed like EU4? Will liberty desire in colonies go up more significantly as time goes on or will it be easy to hold onto them like in EU4?
 
will there be roads already there at game start or will we have to build them all from scratch?
You can see some dotted lines around Stockholm in the control image that Johan has confirmed are roads.
Will you be able to take from peace deals the smallest location type (like taking the single tile of Rome in imperator) or you have to take the whole state (like in hoi4 or imperator itself)? And will peace deals be like in victoria III or more similar to eu4?
Johan has confirmed somewhere that you can take locations (ie, individual tiles) in peace deals.
 
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How can proximity be made faster? Can roads and canals be built? Techs?
You can find some information on travelling in Quora, by Kate Stoneman. I quote the part of her notes that answer your question: "The real game changer [for traveling] was the stage road. These were government-maintained major roads studded with “stations” where mail coaches could change horses and continue on their journey without stopping. Inns at such “stations” were government-licensed, and therefore both safe and subject to standards of cleanliness and comfort."

So, ensuring safer roads and regular sleeping/refreshing "stations" along the way was one of the most effective ways of ensuring greater proximity between locations.
 
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The gameplay concept of 'Projet Ceaseri' looks great, but it doesn't look great.

I know it has already been stated that the UI is a placeholder, but I'm commenting to express my concern, which is also a concern shared by many in the community:

1) My only gripe is that the graphic UI is too bland; it resembles a mobile game. Please don't go for the modern UI route for this game. I love textured UIs like in EU4.

2) From what I've seen, the UI is too big. EU4's UI is the best because the map is always visible. Please don't create a menu-heavy experience. that is the biggest flaw of CK3

3) I also find the UI font ugly. It feels too soulless.

4) The icon for the is too modern seen by estate icon, cultur icon, law icon and otger; for 'Project Ceaser,' I don't mind if you used an old asset from a previous title for the icon.

Even though this sounds negative, I am genuinely excited.
 
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