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Tinto Talks #67 - 11th of June 2025 - Shinto and Shogunate

Hello, and welcome to another issue of happy Wednesdays Tinto Talks. Today, we will be taking a look at the mechanics for Shintō and the Shogunate.

Let’s start with the religion. In EUV, it is part of the Buddhist religious group:
Shinto Tooltip.png

Shinto Panel.png

As you can see, Shintō has two currencies: Honor and Purity. Besides being modified through events and the actions we’ll talk about in a bit, one thing to note is that fighting in battles will decrease your purity (due to the fact that blood is considered impure). Having high purity will allow the accumulation of honor, which will be able to be used for other actions, while having low purity would make people perceive you as an Oni on Earth, which may also have its benefits.
Purity.png

The different actions in the panel are ways of regaining purity, from the more simple ones of spending prestige or money for a cleansing ritual or a pilgrimage respectively, to the more expensive ones of offering a work of art or even the life of the ruler.

Besides these actions, the religion also features an International Organization, where countries can interact with the different factions present there. At start, there are three factions present: the Imperial Court, the Shogunate Court, and the Religious Sects, although more factions can appear in the future related to some other religious followers…

Each faction has some actions available, at the cost of honor, although not all the factions will be available to all countries. For example, if you are at war with the current Shōgun, you will not be able to access the actions of the shogunate court, for obvious reasons.
Shinto IO.png

Expansion Action.png

Demand Extra Payment.png

Appease Temples.png

Some of the actions of the Religious Sects will allow the country to interact with the mechanics of other Buddhist religions, but you will have to wait for future Tinto Talks for an explanation on those.

Shintō also gives access to some unique advances, like for example:
Matsuri.png

Nanto Rokushu.png

Shinbutsu.png

Kagura.png

Hachiman Worship.png

Let’s now move to talk about the Shogunate, which is present in the game as an International Organization:
Shogunate Tooltip.png

Shogunate.png

There is currently a bug with the ruler’s name not appearing in the proper order, it will be fixed.

There’s two types of special statues in the Shogunate International Organization: the Sugo and the Emperor (or Emperors in this case, more on that on Friday). The Emperor is the one that is “technically” the ruler of Japan (although the one actually in charge is the shōgun), while the Shugo are provincial governors, giving them some nice bonuses.
Shugo.png

There’s an action for the shōgun to either grant or revoke the governorship of a province, while the individual clans also have the option of basically becoming a de-facto shugo if they manage to establish enough presence in a particular province.
Shogunate Laws and Actions.png

However, these actions will only be available as long as the Shogunate itself has the appropriate law, and will be disabled once it centralizes control.
Residence Law.png

Becoming the leader of the Shogunate is something that is not granted, and instead it has to be earned. The first step to take is to obtain the backing of the imperial court, with the action Become Shōgun of the Imperial Court faction in the Sintō IO:
Become Shogun.png

This will grant a modifier directly to the ruler (not the country), and a casus belli to declare war on the current leader of the shogunate. If the war is declared and won while still having the same ruler, a special peace treaty can be enacted forcing the change of leadership.

And that is all for today. Tomorrow we have the ‘Behind the Music of Europa Universalis V - Composing the Grandest Score’ video, and on Friday we will be back with a further look at flavor content for Japan (and the Japanese clans), as well as the situations of the Nanbokucho and Sengoku Jidai. See you there.

And remember, Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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Will the Ikko Ikki be playable? And if they are do they have any flavor related to converting the country to Buddhism and destroying the Shogunate?
 
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I'm happy that Shinto in EU5 isn't just a Ctrl C+V from EU4, and obviously there are some tweaks to be made. I acknowledge that there's going to be some abstraction but I would prefer as little as possible and only as much as necessary, and obviously the forum community would agree based on the feedback and likes/disagrees I've been seeing.

A bit off topic but this kind of fresh/innovative/new approach to a religion is what I would have liked to see for Protestantism and Islam, as mechanics in those two are shameless Copy+Pastes from EU4 in my opinion.

And finally, my last (and most trivial) quip is this UI element below... I know the UI is work in progress, but the dragon is definitely a Chinese heraldic/imperial emblem, not Japanese. While most East Asian cultures had dragons in their mythology, I am not aware of that symbology being used in a quasi-heraldic function like it was in Imperial China. I think Japanese flairs in the UI should be birds, like the crane or the phoenix, or perhaps even their national flower, the Chrysanthemum.
1749657856458.png
 
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Kind of a bummber that you don't format japanese (and other cultures') names the way they are used. It would be kinda cool if you could make a set of scripts that would define order of names, Regnal numbers, nicknames, paternal names and dynasty names for entire culture groups as well as for specific cultures. So like for Eastern Slavs it would be
Code:
Name, Regnal Number, Paternal name, Nickname, Dynasty name
, while for Japanese it would be
Code:
Dynasty name, Name, Regnal Number, Nickname.

I hope it's not too late to implement this kinda of thing.
 
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Seriously I think Shinto is not a real religion (centralized and organized) until the establishment of Yoshida Shinto, about 150 years after the start date of the game. Before that there was just no difference between Shinto Kamis and other local deities in east Asia like Tudigong or Chenghuang.
 
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Do you have a suggestion? The sun does imply divinity to me and is quite neutral as symbol
I do, just use EU4-ish religion icon, not the exact one from Imperator:Rome (it fits perfectly into I:R though).
 
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If you change from Shinto to any other religion, will you keep the advances? If you keep them, will they be enabled or "frozen"?

Does Honor/Purity reset upon ruler change? I'd guess so because those two seem to be very ruler-centric resources.
 
Shinto part of Buddhism makes no sense. Yes historically shinto beliefs were mixed with Buddhist beliefs but they were never of the same group. Buddhism should belong to the Dharmic group especially in Eastern India and South East Asia Buddha is still considered an Avatar of Lord Vishnu and worshipped. Also it is very common to have Buddha statue in Hindu homes even to this day
 
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Kind of a bummber that you don't format japanese (and other cultures') names the way they are used. It would be kinda cool if you could make a set of scripts that would define order of names, Regnal numbers, nicknames, paternal names and dynasty names for entire culture groups as well as for specific cultures. So like for Eastern Slavs it would be
Code:
Name, Regnal Number, Paternal name, Nickname, Dynasty name
, while for Japanese it would be
Code:
Dynasty name, Name, Regnal Number, Nickname.

I hope it's not too late to implement this kinda of thing.

In this very Tinto Talk they say that the formatting is broken right now but is implemented for the East Asian naming conventions (and Hungarian, presumably).
1749659980492.png
 
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  • Add classification to sub-title instead of being an extra line
    • 'Religion | Buddhism Religion Group'
  • I don't like the 'Yes' modifiers (I don't thing we have seen no so cannot call them yes/no) or mixing in bulleted items.
    • 'Monasteries' ...................... 'Allowed'
    • 'Purity impacts country' ...................... 'Allowed'
    • 'Honor impacts country' ...................... 'Allowed'
    • 'Religious Factions' ...................... 'Allowed'
  • Again I ask, is the total number of pops, the known world or the complete world?
  • In the 'aware of...' list
    • Is the pop values just of the Shinto peoples in the country? (It might be helpful to know 'this religion' and 'total')
    • When laying out the list, always assume there will be a scroll bar. Move the pop/pop icon to the left so as not to touch the bar.
  • I like the 'flavor text' style that is used in events (the second text boxes) with the adornments and think it should be used for all flavor text.
  • Full justified text appears more polished than a ragged right on large text sections.
Shinto%20Tooltip.png


  • Having a picture in this panel feels forced and doesn't go
  • The three items on the left feel randomly selected so as to have three items to balance the right
  • Can we pick either 'tolerance of the true faith' or 'primary religion tolerance' and stick with it?
  • The labels 'Primary Religion' and 'Liturgical Language' appear to be very important; the values of 'Shinto' and 'Japanese' does not. This is because of the difference in the font size. If you feel that the label is needed [i don't], I would swap the font size between the label and the value to return the focus to the value. You might think about swapping the position too, again putting more focus on value on top than the label.
  • Is there a way to use the right side of the panel? Does Honor and Piety need to be stacked?
  • It looks your donut charts for purity and honor are clipped
  • The whole panel feel forced into the 'standard panel size' and is very wasteful of space
Shinto%20Panel.png


  • Do we need to list what out purity is twice in the first two lines? Can this be combined somehow?
  • Is purity capped at 0 and 100 as implied by the donut chart?
  • I don't think 'rules' should be in effect lists, such as 'Scaling with out purity'. I would somehow get the fact that the benefits are scaled and also the cap into the title.
    • 'For purity between 75 and 100, the scaling benefits are:'?
Purity.png


  • Can the Shinto (religion) IO have a religion other than Shinto? Why does the religion need to be indicated (so prominently)?
  • The numbering on the actions do not seem to be correct. This is my interface to Shinto, so the actions would be the actions that I can take, right?
    • Authorize expansion is for a province but it is showing 50, does that mean that I have 50 target provincese?
    • 'Get marriage' sounds like forced language. What is the 40? 40 people in the court I can marry? 40 people in my country?
    • I assume 'Become Shogun' (again forced wording) is for me to become shogun but since there is a 100 listed I don't know anymore. Can I ask for someone else to 'Become Shogun'? if so, that name should change; if not, what does it mean?
  • I think the number of actions within the 'factions' should be listed out by the expand arrow. As of now it appears that there are 5 religious sects, 4 Shogunate Courts, etc.
Shinto%20IO.png


  • Yay, we dropped the negative sign in "lose" statements. Personally I would also remove the positive sign from the gain statements but they are less offensive.
  • Why do we use the gold icon but the manpower word? (use manpower icon)
  • Is the only condition the cost? If not, why aren't they listed. (Note: the Authorization for Expansion doesn't list the cost as a condition.
  • Do we need the points of failure listed twice?
Demand%20Extra%20Payment.png


  • Don't need the 'Available in...' line as it is in the header as an icon
  • For me the word estate in the modifier feels redundant, doesn't the icon reflect that it is the estate if there is confusion?
Matsuri.png


  • Scrollable lists are better than recurring '...and XXX more' tooltips
  • Why is the Antagonism effect highlighted?
  • Does the 'being a Member will provide' section include all the members? Looking at the member 'block' in the next panel that would include the Shogun and Tenno?
    • This is unclear but I don't think it does intend to include them because otherwise what 'group' does the next section (untitled) affect.
  • I would reword some of these effects
    • 'Become an Empire' ................ 'Blocked'
    • 'Become a Kingdom' ................ 'Blocked'
    • 'Invite new Members' ................ 'Allowed'
  • I would also use Japanese Shogunate instead of IO in the 'Antagonism' line
Shogunate%20Tooltip.png


  • If you are committed to staying with this format at least center the crest and flag and sun.
  • What is the sun meaning to indicate over the flag icon?
  • Does the 'Shogun' not have a special status?
  • Can we add space between the flags? removing the frames would be enough space. Also it seems like 14 flags was an odd number to target for wrapping.
  • Are we married to the generic 'UN Icon'
Shogunate.png



All I have time for. Hope this helps.
 
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So when you are granted manpower like this, do the manpower pops actually move to your country?
Pops are not connected to manpower (if you look at it).

Damage to regular units is tied to pops. It will attempt to takes pops working at MP buildings if available but it will take pops. It will even take pops if you do not have the MP to 'reinforce' the unit.
 
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It feels like the Buddhism TT should have happened before this one as a lot of the answers seem to be 'it will be explained in the Buddhism TT'. We'll see if it should have come after Friday's TT as that was the answer a lot too.
 
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Second instance of "Press this button and convert this one slider currency into manpower (and gold in this case too)". Really disliking that, especially since it basically creates the manpower from nothing and doesn't subtract them from someone else.

Please rethink this mechanic, it's way too gamey in an otherwise fantastically looking simulation.
 
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